Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Qdeathstar]

Wow. More people ride the bus than the light rail. I wonder why that is. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact light rail only covers a very small section of the city while the busses go everywhere. It has nothing to do with peoples preferences. The only people who ride the bus are people who have to. Rail has a higher precieved value. BRT is only useful to people who already ride the bus, it isn’t going to create new customers or raise property along routes the way a proper metro does.

 

Maybe you are new here but this isn’t the first time BRT has been discussed and as I said, everyone here knows what BRT is; a waste of resources. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Qdeathstar

[Norva757]

1 hour ago, Mountain_Junior said:

Why the bus obsession then?

Because they know nothing about light rail. There is no one running this company know anything about rail but came up through the bus system and are taught that bus is the answer to everything. HRT is not the final say in this since money for the projects come from the city, state and federal govt. With lightrail so small there isn't the right people in power to understand rail and how to run it. They know the bus systems like the back of their hand. If you are trained in a certain skill you will always push that skill to solve problems.

[urbanlife]

4 minutes ago, Norva757 said:

Because they know nothing about light rail. There is no one running this company know anything about rail but came up through the bus system and are taught that bus is the answer to everything. HRT is not the final say in this since money for the projects come from the city, state and federal govt. With lightrail so small there isn't the right people in power to understand rail and how to run it. They know the bus systems like the back of their hand. If you are trained in a certain skill you will always push that skill to solve problems.

This is pretty much it, until HRT hires outside of the metro people who are experienced in light rail and expanding light rail systems, it will continue to be a bus focused system. Though with Norfolk, BRT isn't a bad idea if its a system that is going to be built and expanded throughout the city of Norfolk. Light rail is much better than BRT with ridership, but when done correctly, BRT can have really great ridership as well, but it has to be real BRT with platform stops and designated lanes that keep the buses out of regular vehicle traffic. The light rail that exists in Norfolk should be looking at the surrounding cities to see which ones would want to have it expanded to their cities and be used more as a commuter light rail system.

[Urbanlooker]

A cool thing that I've seen in Europe is that some of their busses use their light rail tracks as lanes and even have some of the same stops. It's kind of confusing driving around them, but the BRT lanes could definitely make way for LRT in the future. 

[mintscraft56]

On 12/8/2021 at 8:26 AM, Mountain_Junior said:

They are not obsessed with the bus. You are assuming that.

Definitely not assuming that. They hold back light rail because "insufficient number growth" yet they strap up and get ready to make more bus ways across the area. Bus is growing because they are doing exactly what the light rail needs to busses and that is expanding it. Its like they are blind to the fact that bus is doing good because it has what light rail does not. A  long route and path with more stops.   

[mintscraft56]

Glad to see those new busses around the area. Cleaner and seemingly wider + longer.

[BeagleAccountant]

Last night, city council voted to approve the Granby Street bike lane proposal, creating two bike protected lanes from the northern edge of the Granby Bridge to Wards Corner. Some are concerned about the congestion this will create but that stretch of Granby is the only one with 3 lanes and by removing that additional lane you're removing that natural bottleneck that occurs at the Granby Bridge and in Wards Corner.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/transportation/vp-nw-granby-bike-lanes-20220126-gg7hmlhs5faynmdvz2x5i4kykm-story.html

[urbanlife]

4 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Last night, city council voted to approve the Granby Street bike lane proposal, creating two bike protected lanes from the northern edge of the Granby Bridge to Wards Corner. Some are concerned about the congestion this will create but that stretch of Granby is the only one with 3 lanes and by removing that additional lane you're removing that natural bottleneck that occurs at the Granby Bridge and in Wards Corner.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/transportation/vp-nw-granby-bike-lanes-20220126-gg7hmlhs5faynmdvz2x5i4kykm-story.html

My only issue with this would be that route would be a good light rail route running up Church to Granby to Oceanview. That would have made a great investment line for potential redevelopments all along that route. Though bike lanes along Granby is good too since there is no reason for that road to be 6 lanes.

[varider]

In a dream world, the city would be revisit LRT/ BRT on the west side of the city up Granby and over to the Naval Base— with a revitalization of Riverview and Wards Corner— but nonetheless I’m all for the city prioritizing bike/ pedestrian activity because I think walkability is the key to future success of Norfolk— cities like VB/ Chesapeake are further solidifying their position as the better quality of life with better retail and new to market experiences— Norfolk has to play to its strength— density, urbanity, and cultural experiences. 

[urbanlife]

3 hours ago, varider said:

In a dream world, the city would be revisit LRT/ BRT on the west side of the city up Granby and over to the Naval Base— with a revitalization of Riverview and Wards Corner— but nonetheless I’m all for the city prioritizing bike/ pedestrian activity because I think walkability is the key to future success of Norfolk— cities like VB/ Chesapeake are further solidifying their position as the better quality of life with better retail and new to market experiences— Norfolk has to play to its strength— density, urbanity, and cultural experiences. 

I agree, Norfolk could definitely do a lot of grassroots pocket urban areas that strengthen walkable communities. With that happening, over time, things get more desirable and makes it easier to potentially going back to light rail and expanding the city with multiple lines in the city. 

[Norf Native]

HRT’s planned light rail extension.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/transportation/vp-nw-light-rail-norfolk-20220305-b7dwlpnfcrasre6rlttbl332my-story.html

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Norf Native

[BFG]

Interesting. I suppose they could close the service road on the Blvd? Those are a pain to navigate anyway at times. 

[varider]

beating the dead horse, the 3-4 miles it would take to get to town center is still the elephant in the room 

[mintscraft56]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:10 AM, varider said:

beating the dead horse, the 3-4 miles it would take to get to town center is still the elephant in the room 

Thats what I have been suggesting this whole time. I understand VB had voted it out but it pains me how they even have such an obvious path straight down from Military circle on VB blvd with that massive median splitting the streets all the way down to TC.

  I have attached some pictures to prove my point. 

Would have made such a good light rail line all the way down.

[Lluck002]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:27 AM, Urbanlooker said:

A cool thing that I've seen in Europe is that some of their busses use their light rail tracks as lanes and even have some of the same stops. It's kind of confusing driving around them, but the BRT lanes could definitely make way for LRT in the future. 

The Pulse BRT in Richmond was built so that it’s right-of-way and station platforms could be used for an eventual light rail system with minor adjustments.

And to everyone hating on Bus Rapid Transit, yes, it is unfortunate and not as nice as Light Rail. Not as efficient, comfortable, or frequent, but it’s way better than you think! If you build a really good BRT line (that can easily be refitted to run LRT), then this BRT line will reach capacity and show that the line should be upgraded. Pre-Pandemic, the Pulse in Richmond was PACKED ALL THE TIME! And it did bring lots of new urban development along the corridor. This has led to serious discussions of upgrading and expanding. Again, I’d love to see us just build LRT from the beginning, but unfortunately I think it’s gonna be a multi-stage process where we see the mode evolve as ridership increases. But at least it look like we’re getting that two-station extension along with the BRT

[Norva757]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:10 AM, varider said:

beating the dead horse, the 3-4 miles it would take to get to town center is still the elephant in the room 

I seriously doubt Vabeach will get on board with light rail anytime soon. It makes too much sense and they would have to work with Norfolk in a way so thats a complete turn off for them

[varider]

Yeah, it makes me sick. Maybe we can get something going with Norfolk and Chesapeake, as the latter doesn’t seem opposed to connecting to NFK with BRT, and Summit Pointe/Greenbrier could be bigger than Town Center/Pembroke, if you think about the growth patterns and incomes and flooding etc. I mean, there was a period of time when VB looked like it was really going to step it up (Arena, surf park, Rudee loop, light rail, etc.) Instead, we got another field house thing? surf park is probably dead in the water with the inflation and everything else, Rudee loop they want to put to referendum and keep it a park, and light rail is like a curse word. The roads have been widened and widened and redesigned, and there’s still traffic and heavy volume and the city will never be walkable because of it, or conducive to scooters or bikes or any form of travel other than an automobile, and oh wait, now that oil and gas prices are higher, wouldn’t it be nice to at least have the option of at least 1 denser corridor with LRT to at least Town Center. Really, that part of 264 between Military and Independence  is one of the most congested in the area, and if I were the feds, I wouldn’t give this area another penny in rail funding until VB woke up and realized they’re actually a city of 460K. Unfortunately, I agree that it might be too late, at least for this generation.

[mintscraft56]

Norfolk and Chesapeake is the last chance unless Portsmouth wants a slice in on the money.  Both cities almost never fight unlike VB vs NFK. Plus their urban centre areas are closer and Chesapeake supplys Norfolk with the 20,000+ other people who come to the city to work. A light rail to greenbrier and ultimately Summit Pointe would be very beneficial and helpful as these gas prices continue to rise. Plus unlike VB I have never known Chesapeake to miss out on a opportunity to grow like they are now! 

Plus this is not bashing on VB its just fact that they missed out and its time to move away until they make up their mind again if ever. Because there are alot more markets open outside of VB.

Edited March 10, 2022 by mintscraft56

[Lluck002]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:17 PM, mintscraft56 said:

Norfolk and Chesapeake is the last chance unless Portsmouth wants a slice in on the money.  Both cities almost never fight unlike VB vs NFK. Plus their urban centre areas are closer and Chesapeake supplys Norfolk with the 20,000+ other people who come to the city to work. A light rail to greenbrier and ultimately Summit Pointe would be very beneficial and helpful as these gas prices continue to rise. Plus unlike VB I have never known Chesapeake to miss out on a opportunity to grow like they are now! 

Plus this is not bashing on VB its just fact that they missed out and its time to move away until they make up their mind again if ever. Because there are alot more markets open outside of VB.

A lot of employees at the Virginia Beach Department of Planning & Community Development have been leaving to work for Chesapeake instead since so much innovative urban planning in Virginia Beach has been thwarted. They have brought in a lot of new progressive planners like me though who are pushing hard for a refocus on transit, density, walkability, and urbanity. We will see what happens.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

Portsmouth wanted the light rail more than any other city in fact Portsmouth ask the State to allocate money to build a rail line thru the newer side of the midtown tunnel, and the state like always shunned Portsmouth. Instead they tried VB and got burned so as far as I'm concerned the state and HRT are also to blame. It's kinda mind-blowing that Portsmouth got a toll instead of mass transit makes you wonder WTH is up with the thought process of the powers that be. 

But here we are again trying Greenbrier another car centric suburb that will under utilize mass transit.  HRT is really doing its light rail ass backwards, they continue to neglect the "REAL" urban core of the area and force light rail to the suburb? 

If they want to see the light rail used build it to Portsmouth those are the people who would use it, and HRT knows this they just continue to neglect the underprivileged rider, students, and largest employers in the area. Continue to neglect the urban core and you continue to see and have a outpaced Metro, mass transit included.

VB and Chesapeake are suburbs sorry not sorry, they were built as such and mass transit doesn't really make sense in those areas where people make more money and have multiple cars. They have already have too much underutilized transit VB and Chesapeake are full of empty buses 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[mintscraft56]

11 hours ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Portsmouth wanted the light rail more than any other city in fact Portsmouth ask the State to allocate money to build a rail line thru the newer side of the midtown tunnel, and the state like always shunned Portsmouth. Instead they tried VB and got burned so as far as I'm concerned the state and HRT are also to blame. It's kinda mind-blowing that Portsmouth got a toll instead of mass transit makes you wonder WTH is up with the thought process of the powers that be. 

But here we are again trying Greenbrier another car centric suburb that will under utilize mass transit.  HRT is really doing its light rail ass backwards, they continue to neglect the "REAL" urban core of the area and force light rail to the suburb? 

If they want to see the light rail used build it to Portsmouth those are the people who would use it, and HRT knows this they just continue to neglect the underprivileged rider, students, and largest employers in the area. Continue to neglect the urban core and you continue to see and have a outpaced Metro, mass transit included.

VB and Chesapeake are suburbs sorry not sorry, they were built as such and mass transit doesn't really make sense in those areas where people make more money and have multiple cars. They have already have too much underutilized transit VB and Chesapeake are full of empty buses 

 

 

 

Yep, Norfolk and Portsmouth are great for light rail. I too never understood the thought process of never extending to the other urban core of HR. Not only that but Norfolk gets less out of it too with the light rail staying in the same city. But realistically knowing the HRT the best hope is Chesapeake where at least they have a close urban centre and a fast growing population. HRT does not seem like it wants big expansion across the Elizabeth yet for reasons I still cant see. 

Its just best to go for the best hope and pray they add Portsmouth into the plan soon.

[vdogg]

2 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Yep, Norfolk and Portsmouth are great for light rail. I too never understood the thought process of never extending to the other urban core of HR. Not only that but Norfolk gets less out of it too with the light rail staying in the same city. But realistically knowing the HRT the best hope is Chesapeake where at least they have a close urban centre and a fast growing population. HRT does not seem like it wants big expansion across the Elizabeth yet for reasons I still cant see. 

Its just best to go for the best hope and pray they add Portsmouth into the plan soon.

Unfortunately, Governor McToll a few years back signed an agreement that prohibits us from having another crossing that directly competes with the Downtown/Midtown tunnels. This includes light rail. If we were to build a light rail crossing we would have to pay substantial damages.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

59 minutes ago, vdogg said:

Unfortunately, Governor McToll a few years back signed an agreement that prohibits us from having another crossing that directly competes with the Downtown/Midtown tunnels. This includes light rail. If we were to build a light rail crossing we would have to pay substantial damages.

Wow I didn't know that, WTF were they thinking I knew the tolls were bad but wow I didn't know it was so binding as well. Portsmouth was completely sold out, this only further my stance that the State hates HR, Norfolk and Portsmouth in particular. The state has done so much weird, guinea pig, test tube type governance in this area that has not been successful at all. HR is also a failure on the state as well, the state stopping annexation and allowing cities is the biggest and most fatal flaw of HR. Now it make sense that both cities got a casino SMH the state had to get more cash in to these areas, from previous shortsighted governance. 

Every other metro and core cities in Eastern VA are doing very good, Richmond and NOVA are kicking ass and HR is just so stagnant it's losing the battle at the #2 metro, Richmond will overtake us very soon. And I honestly point to the city/county relationship that is allowing those areas to flourish. Especially Richmond Henrico and Chesterfield understand that a county is to work in compliment with the city, not compete for competition sakes. Norfolk doesn't have the luxury of being top dog even though it's the only city in the area that can compete on a state and national level. Im just so bummed that HR developed the way it did and continues to live down it potential.

[mintscraft56]

1 hour ago, vdogg said:

Unfortunately, Governor McToll a few years back signed an agreement that prohibits us from having another crossing that directly competes with the Downtown/Midtown tunnels. This includes light rail. If we were to build a light rail crossing we would have to pay substantial damages.

Of course he did....You know. We get one thing good around here and something or someone decides to shoot it down. That or we get what we waited for but then it turns out to fail because of policies and stuff that seemingly suffocated the project to death. 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

4 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Yep, Norfolk and Portsmouth are great for light rail. I too never understood the thought process of never extending to the other urban core of HR. Not only that but Norfolk gets less out of it too with the light rail staying in the same city. But realistically knowing the HRT the best hope is Chesapeake where at least they have a close urban centre and a fast growing population. HRT does not seem like it wants big expansion across the Elizabeth yet for reasons I still cant see. 

Its just best to go for the best hope and pray they add Portsmouth into the plan soon.

This part!! The fact that HRT may have light rail to Greenbrier is smfh level failure. Greenbrier is not walkable, the streets are crazy big and fast, and there's nothing that would lend people to explore the area. The light rail being completely in Norfolk is even more head straching. Light rail to South Norfolk then across the Elizabeth to Portsmouth would immediately pay dividends. It would also put multiple large employers on the light rail line Norfolk shipyard in Portsmouth is right across from South Norfolk and employees thousands of people. The shipyards on Norfolk side like BAE would be on the same line, that another massive employer. Effingham in Portsmouth runs from the shipyard directly to the Naval hospital another large employer. HRT is squandering time and money trying to convince people who live suburban lifestyles to choose mass transit it's ass backwards. 

Build the rail from Navel Station Norfolk down Hampton Blvd to ODU, start the new line from Norfolk State across to Berkeley to South Norfolk to Portsmouth. That would put light rail into the biggest universities and employers in South Hampton Roads also a population demographics that uses mass transit. Downtown Norfolk would sit in the center of it all and I'm sure it would have been a large boom for Downtown Norfolk too with so many people traversing the rail lines. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall