LOCAL and Florida Politics

[prahaboheme]

Isn't the Mayor a member of the downtown development board?

Most mayors have plenty of control over how cities are developed including how developers are expected to confirm to local design standards.  It falls flat to me that the Mayor doesn't have a hand in the local aesthetic.  If this current mayor did one thing -- requiring that all buildings require awnings, overhangs, or balconies that protect pedestrians from both the sun and the rain -- I'd consider that a huge success.  Several Southern cities have kept this design standard alive - New Orleans, Pensacola, Key West, Ybor City.  Not only is it functional, its visually appealing.

I'm particularly impressed with the transformation of Palafox St in Pensacola over the last 1.5 decades:  https://goo.gl/maps/G8PCWhECFmtnJTBVA

 

In addition, new urbanism picked up this design aesthetic heavily - think Seaside, Celebration, Baldwin Park.

In Orlando, our buildings get visors though, so apparently that is enough.

[AmIReal]

10 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Isn't the Mayor a member of the downtown development board?

The Mayor is not a member of the board, but he does appoint the members with a vote of the Commission.

Current members:
    William “Bill” Lambert, Chair – Red Lobster
    James “Jamie”  Barati, Vice Chair – Jones Lang LaSalle
    Marissa John 
    Monica McCown – Artisan’s Table
    Eugene Jones – Valencia College
 

https://www.downtownorlando.com/About/Downtown-Development-Board

[prahaboheme]

42 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

The Mayor is not a member of the board, but he does appoint the members with a vote of the Commission.

Current members:
    William “Bill” Lambert, Chair – Red Lobster
    James “Jamie”  Barati, Vice Chair – Jones Lang LaSalle
    Marissa John 
    Monica McCown – Artisan’s Table
    Eugene Jones – Valencia College
 

https://www.downtownorlando.com/About/Downtown-Development-Board

This really speaks for itself.

No one on this board is representing architecture or urban planning.

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Isn't the Mayor a member of the downtown development board?

Most mayors have plenty of control over how cities are developed including how developers are expected to confirm to local design standards.  It falls flat to me that the Mayor doesn't have a hand in the local aesthetic.  If this current mayor did one thing -- requiring that all buildings require awnings, overhangs, or balconies that protect pedestrians from both the sun and the rain -- I'd consider that a huge success.  Several Southern cities have kept this design standard alive - New Orleans, Pensacola, Key West, Ybor City.  Not only is it functional, its visually appealing.

I'm particularly impressed with the transformation of Palafox St in Pensacola over the last 1.5 decades:  https://goo.gl/maps/G8PCWhECFmtnJTBVA

 

In addition, new urbanism picked up this design aesthetic heavily - think Seaside, Celebration, Baldwin Park.

In Orlando, our buildings get visors though, so apparently that is enough.

The visors are a specific example of the mayor and council changing the rules. They did not, as @JFW657 seems to believe, come down on stone tablets by a God with an odd sense of humor.

Mayor Bill thought that the plethora of towers that came on line during the ‘60’s, 70’s and ‘80’s were a little boring with all the flat roofs. So, they changed the rules to encourage some variety. They no doubt envisioned what we got with Sun Bank Center and The First, FA building.

Unfortunately, the developers did an end run on more recent buildings and we got the visors. You would suppose that, given the unintended result, a later mayor would have revisited the issue. Apparently, though, Buddy likes visors or simply doesn’t care how cheesy they look.

A similar issue arose in attempting more urban standards for retail in the core. The pushback manifested itself in the ever-so-odd 7-Eleven at Colonial and Magnolia. A change in ownership at 7-Eleven eventually resulted in not fighting the design standard, as in the later handsome brick versions such as at Colonial and Ferncreek. That’s a definite improvement over the version on Summerlin, so it ended up working out.

It was also Mayor Bill’s idea to restrict the signage atop towers (he wanted a logo instead of the whole name spelled out; First Union threatened to just put “FU” on the 20 N. Orange signs and a compromise was struck so the name is just on the I-4 sides and not the sides facing town).

Mayor Bill also encouraged water features and got Jaymont to do a setback creating a plaza outside their tower at Church and Orange. He also got Atlantic Bank to angle 20 N. Orange for variety.

So, yes, a mayor can set changes in motion in design and architecture. He also pushed forward the zoning to preserve our in town neighborhoods, one of Orlando’s most unique features. The developers and real estate interests screamed bloody murder but the changes held.

Not all the ideas worked but many did. The point is, yes, mayors can make changes in the urban fabric by using a variety of methods.

Edited December 12, 2020 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

17 hours ago, orange87 said:

That’s probably the biggest strawman I’ve ever seen. It’s funny, because I recall Kamal Toe being the one who refused to answer in the debate whether she or others  should get the vaccine.

Speaking of unhinged conspiracy theories. For four years, you guys peddled mentally ill conspiracy theories about Trump being a top secret Russian agent.

Yeah, I knew it sounded a little unhinged. Wish I could take credit for it.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/24/bill_gates_debuts/

https://www.gq.com/story/plandemic-anti-vaxxer-conspiracy-theory

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/aug/13/facebook-posts/conspiracy-about-moderna-gates-epstein-fauci-and-s/

etc.

[orange87]

12 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

Yeah, I knew it sounded a little unhinged. Wish I could take credit for it.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/24/bill_gates_debuts/

https://www.gq.com/story/plandemic-anti-vaxxer-conspiracy-theory

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/aug/13/facebook-posts/conspiracy-about-moderna-gates-epstein-fauci-and-s/

etc.

But the thing I don't understand is why you brought it up since nobody on this forum believes that. The fringe right believes that. The "Trump is a top secret Russian agent" conspiracy theory, on the other hand, was mainstream thought from the left. Every single mainstream media outlet peddled this conspiracy theory for four years.

[orange87]

16 hours ago, JFW657 said:

You right-wingers all use the same buzz words all the time.

No matter how many times you accuse me of being a right winger, it still won't make it true. This is the last time I'm gonna say this. I'm considerably farther left than you. I support universal basic income, universal healthcare, $15/hr minimum wage, free public college and decriminalization of all drugs. As I recall, you don't support ANY of those things. So you're to the right of me bud.

[AmIReal]

3 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

This really speaks for itself.

No one on this board is representing architecture or urban planning.

Yep, that is a different board. The Downtown Development Board addresses economic vitality issues. The Appearance Review Board is the one with the architects and builders. 

Appearance Review Board Downtown Orlando

"Description

Reviews applications for certificates of appearance approval and make recommendations to Council on whether to approve, approve with conditions or deny such applications. The geographic area is the same as that of the downtown CRA. Five members must live, work or own property in the jurisidictional boundaries and at least four members must be either a planner, architect, landscape architect, sign designer, or lawyer."

26 minutes ago, orange87 said:

I don't understand is why you brought it up since nobody on this forum believes that

Well I could say I did it just to "trigger" you, but actually I was just kidding around.

[nite owℓ]

18 hours ago, orange87 said:

He’s a billionaire U.S. President with a supermodel wife. I think he’s “won” more times than you could even dream of.

Good advice. Maybe you’ll stop having arguments with yourself in your head.

Huh? Is that the best you could do?? lol I wasn't even referring to you necessarily, but if the MAGA hat fits...

Don't try to drag me into your inner turmoil.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by nite owℓ

[spenser1058]

52 minutes ago, orange87 said:

No matter how many times you accuse me of being a right winger, it still won't make it true. This is the last time I'm gonna say this. I'm considerably farther left than you. I support universal basic income, universal healthcare, $15/hr minimum wage, free public college and decriminalization of all drugs. As I recall, you don't support ANY of those things. So you're to the right of me bud.

At least now whenever I need a textbook example of cognitive dissonance I know exactly where to go. Many thanks.

[orange87]

9 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

At least now whenever I need a textbook example of cognitive dissonance I know exactly where to go. Many thanks.

I already gave a perfectly logical reason why I support Trump. The open borders/social justice/identity politics is a deal breaker for me, because I want all the things I previously stated within the framework of the American system and culture. Open borders/social justice/identity politics is incompatible with America as founded and American culture. If we lose our culture and our founding principles, then the things I wanted are moot.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, orange87 said:

I already gave a perfectly logical reason why I support Trump. The open borders/social justice/identity politics is a deal breaker for me, because I want all the things I previously stated within the framework of the American system and culture. Open borders/social justice/identity politics is incompatible with America as founded and American culture. If we lose our culture and our founding principles, then the things I wanted are moot.

Actually, open borders are widely supported by the business wing that has propped up the GOP for over a century. Go back and take a look at the immigration bill St. Ronnie signed into law sometime. As to “identity politics”, there are no groups more committed to them than the white nationalists and they’re all on the right. As for social justice, as someone who was once perceived as a straight white male, I’ve seen exactly where any sense of justice evaporates to once your compatriots discovered their perception was incorrect. The American concept is Equal Justice Under the Law, and it’s a concept the right has ignored for several hundred years. 

[prahaboheme]

46 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Huh? Is that the best you could do?? lol I wasn't even referring to you necessarily, but if the MAGA hat fits...

Don't try to drag me into your inner turmoil.

 

I think that nonsensical comment was actually directed at me and I think your response is lovely so I'll stick with that.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, orange87 said:

No matter how many times you accuse me of being a right winger, it still won't make it true. This is the last time I'm gonna say this. I'm considerably farther left than you. I support universal basic income, universal healthcare, $15/hr minimum wage, free public college and decriminalization of all drugs. As I recall, you don't support ANY of those things. So you're to the right of me bud.

How can you be for all those things while at the same time you worship at the feet of Donald Trump, an ass-clown who would never even consider any one of them?

A snowball would have a better chance of staying frozen in hell than any one of those things becoming reality under Trump.

.

Edited December 12, 2020 by JFW657

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

Yep, that is a different board. The Downtown Development Board addresses economic vitality issues. The Appearance Review Board is the one with the architects and builders. 

Appearance Review Board Downtown Orlando

"Description

Reviews applications for certificates of appearance approval and make recommendations to Council on whether to approve, approve with conditions or deny such applications. The geographic area is the same as that of the downtown CRA. Five members must live, work or own property in the jurisidictional boundaries and at least four members must be either a planner, architect, landscape architect, sign designer, or lawyer."

Thanks for the clarification.

Does the mayor sit on that board or does he hold any sway over it?

I kind of doubt it.

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The visors are a specific example of the mayor and council changing the rules. They did not, as @JFW657 seems to believe, come down on stone tablets by a God with an odd sense of humor.

Mayor Bill thought that the plethora of towers that came on line during the ‘60’s, 70’s and ‘80’s were a little boring with all the flat roofs. So, they changed the rules to encourage some variety. They no doubt envisioned what we got with Sun Bank Center and The First, FA building.

Unfortunately, the developers did an end run on more recent buildings and we got the visors. You would suppose that, given the unintended result, a later mayor would have revisited the issue. Apparently, though, Buddy likes visors or simply doesn’t care how cheesy they look.

A similar issue arose in attempting more urban standards for retail in the core. The pushback manifested itself in the ever-so-odd 7-Eleven at Colonial and Magnolia. A change in ownership at 7-Eleven eventually resulted in not fighting the design standard, as in the later handsome brick versions such as at Colonial and Ferncreek. That’s a definite improvement over the version on Summerlin, so it ended up working out.

It was also Mayor Bill’s idea to restrict the signage atop towers (he wanted a logo instead of the whole name spelled out; First Union threatened to just put “FU” on the 20 N. Orange signs and a compromise was struck so the name is just on the I-4 sides and not the sides facing town).

Mayor Bill also encouraged water features and got Jaymont to do a setback creating a plaza outside their tower at Church and Orange. He also got Atlantic Bank to angle 20 N. Orange for variety.

So, yes, a mayor can set changes in motion in design and architecture. He also pushed forward the zoning to preserve our in town neighborhoods, one of Orlando’s most unique features. The developers and real estate interests screamed bloody murder but the changes held.

Not all the ideas worked but many did. The point is, yes, mayors can make changes in the urban fabric by using a variety of methods.

You do a great job of obfuscating but little else.

The Sun Bank Center has one of the goofiest looking, cheesy-gimmick rooflines of any building I've ever seen anywhere so if you want to lay that on your hero and idol "Mayor Bill", then go ahead, but it's not something I'd brag about.

The First F.A. building was, as I pointed out earlier, designed by an architectural firm out of Texas who had previously designed a very similar one in Austin, so I guess "Mayor Bill" influences buildings in other states as well....?

Re: the "cheesy look" of visors... that is purely YOUR OPINION. Also, that style of building is not peculiar to downtown Orlando. A lot of architecture nowadays tends to follow certain fads, as with the design of the Phase 2 Church Street "crookedly stacked boxes" tower. You see that crap everywhere. Same with visor roofs. Just because you and some others on this board don't like visors on buildings does not make them universally disliked. I personally have no problem with them as long as they don't take over the skyline, which they have not.

As for everything else you rambled about, source it or it's merely conjecture.

[AmIReal]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:52 PM, JFW657 said:

Does the mayor sit on that board or does he hold any sway over it?

No, but he does appoint a seat.

On the subject of design and visors in particular, they seem to be the pretty common in most "new" cities I visit for buildings in the 8 to 20 story range. 

Also, we often discuss the color palette of Orlando buildings, but I see the same thing uniform/ different colors elsewhere- ever notice Austin in brown/ beige? Miami. Nashville. Everyone has a palette they work with.

Regarding awnings- I'm not sure what the various posters here are asking for. Do you mean after market, attached, canvas awnings or architectural elements added while building.  Because if you mean the latter I don't see a lot of that anymore. I'm sure this group will correct me, but are there a lot of new buildings (<3 years old) that have built in overhangs or awnings? I'm sure they are there and I have just overlooked them... which would be a sign of really good design I guess.

My point is that architects/ developers/ builders all go through cycles and currently we/ everyone else are in the with visor sans awning phase. This to shall pass.

 

 

[prahaboheme]

On the topic of overhangs, awnings, iron balconies, etc., its not so much that they are widely used.  It's that they are functional in Orlando's climate to make it a hell of a lot more likeable to walk around in either the scorching heat or in a down pour.  The cities I already listed above continue on with this tradition and Orlando is a suitable comparison in terms of the average daily climate.

[AmIReal]

8 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

On the topic of overhangs, awnings, iron balconies, etc., its not so much that they are widely used.  It's that they are functional in Orlando's climate to make it a hell of a lot more likeable to walk around in either the scorching heat or in a down pour.  The cities I already listed above continue on with this tradition and Orlando is a suitable comparison in terms of the average daily climate.

Yes, I agree they would be helpful and probably look good. I wonder, from a builders perspective, if there is a reason they prefer to not add them. Is it cost or maintenance. Or maybe architects at this time just don't like them...? Maybe they find them distracting to their project. 

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Yes, I agree they would be helpful and probably look good. I wonder, from a builders perspective, if there is a reason they prefer to not add them. Is it cost or maintenance. Or maybe architects at this time just don't like them...? Maybe they find them distracting to their project. 

That's what I think. 

Architects tend to care less about functionality and more about appearance.

Awnings and overhangs disrupt the "clean" look of modern buildings

The old red brick buildings they used to build in the 20's, 30's, and 40's were more suited to overhangs.

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Yes, I agree they would be helpful and probably look good. I wonder, from a builders perspective, if there is a reason they prefer to not add them. Is it cost or maintenance. Or maybe architects at this time just don't like them...? Maybe they find them distracting to their project. 

They don’t have to - that’s really it. This discussion spawned out of a “desire” that many of us would envision making Orlando a better place to live. It would take the city to impose standards on developers (which they can despite the choir) to do that. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by prahaboheme

[JFW657]

Regarding the matter of shielding pedestrians from the sun, trees do a pretty good job of providing shade.

Overhangs might even interfere with their growth.

As for protection from the rain,  umbrellas work just fine for that. 

[popsiclebrandon]

Need a serious investigation into these fake candidates and the dark money funneled into them.  Here is the fraud Trump so wants to be real.

 

 

[jack]

On 12/12/2020 at 1:37 PM, prahaboheme said:

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by jack
Duplicate

[jack]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:05 PM, orange87 said:

I already gave a perfectly logical reason why I support Trump. The open borders/social justice/identity politics is a deal breaker for me, because I want all the things I previously stated within the framework of the American system and culture. Open borders/social justice/identity politics is incompatible with America as founded and American culture. If we lose our culture and our founding principles, then the things I wanted are moot.

The interesting thing is, the president has no bearing on those issues except borders. 

On 12/12/2020 at 4:58 PM, orange87 said:

No matter how many times you accuse me of being a right winger, it still won't make it true. This is the last time I'm gonna say this. I'm considerably farther left than you. I support universal basic income, universal healthcare, $15/hr minimum wage, free public college and decriminalization of all drugs. As I recall, you don't support ANY of those things. So you're to the right of me bud.

You are a man without a party or national representation.