I4 - Beyond the Ultimate [Pre-construction]

[dcluley98]

People 

8 minutes ago, Xander said:

It's comical to me that we're having to suffer through years of traffic, but we're keeping the exact same number of free lanes and just adding another way for the state to make money off of people using the primary thruway in Central Florida. I know i'll be lambasted for this, but it would be nice if something as basic as getting around didn't have to be based on a tiered pay system that people defend as a great way for the state to make money instead of, I dunno, a road to get to and from work. How about we just widen the darn highway and keep all of the lanes free and we not try and collect yet more money off of people........ sorry, just annoyed. This project has annoyed me since they announced it. Sorry, but i'm not excited whatsoever about a free road becoming a partial toll road.

It is a proven fact that variable toll lanes improve traffic flow in congested, urban areas. FDOT know what they are doing. In fact, variable toll lanes improve throughput and flow of traffic even more than just adding the same number non-toll lanes to the existing roadway.  Additionally, a lot of this separate ROW is also being planned for future possibility of automation of vehicles or automated public transportation BRT-like or Uber "pod" like systems. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by dcluley98

[HankStrong]

53 minutes ago, Xander said:

It's comical to me that we're having to suffer through years of traffic, but we're keeping the exact same number of free lanes and just adding another way for the state to make money off of people using the primary thruway in Central Florida. I know i'll be lambasted for this, but it would be nice if something as basic as getting around didn't have to be based on a tiered pay system that people defend as a great way for the state to make money instead of, I dunno, a road to get to and from work. How about we just widen the darn highway and keep all of the lanes free and we not try and collect yet more money off of people........ sorry, just annoyed. This project has annoyed me since they announced it. Sorry, but i'm not excited whatsoever about a free road becoming a partial toll road.

I'm not lambasting you, but I 100% think you are way, way, way off base.

As the post above states, it has been proven this system improves the drive.  I've driven the piece in Miami several times and it was night & day better than before.  Absolutely better.

I understand that sometimes free vs. pay roads rile some people up, but coming from a state without tolls, but with income tax, I'll tell you that (despite driving toll roads every single day) I don't pay but a fraction of what I paid on my state income taxes.  I can also choose not to take toll roads at all, especially in the variable toll zones.  I couldn't choose to not pay taxes without going to jail.

[Xander]

2 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

People 

It is a proven fact that variable toll lanes improve traffic flow in congested, urban areas. FDOT know what they are doing. In fact, variable toll lanes improve throughput and flow of traffic even more than just adding the same number non-toll lanes to the existing roadway.  Additionally, a lot of this separate ROW is also being planned for future possibility of automation of vehicles or automated public transportation BRT-like or Uber "pod" like systems. 

Well I know we need more lanes either way. I just we didn't have to pay for the region being so many decades behind meeting the traffic projections for central Florida. 

[Jvest55]

4 hours ago, HankStrong said:

I'm not lambasting you, but I 100% think you are way, way, way off base.

As the post above states, it has been proven this system improves the drive.  I've driven the piece in Miami several times and it was night & day better than before.  Absolutely better.

I understand that sometimes free vs. pay roads rile some people up, but coming from a state without tolls, but with income tax, I'll tell you that (despite driving toll roads every single day) I don't pay but a fraction of what I paid on my state income taxes.  I can also choose not to take toll roads at all, especially in the variable toll zones.  I couldn't choose to not pay taxes without going to jail.

yeah, off base here for sure. I don't think you understand how efficient the system that we'll have in Orlando will be.  

[HankStrong]

18 hours ago, Xander said:

Well I know we need more lanes either way. I just we didn't have to pay for the region being so many decades behind meeting the traffic projections for central Florida. 

The best part of this type of system is that if you do not wish to pay a single toll on I-4, you never have to.  You have the exact same number of lanes as you had access to before.  The lanes didn't decrease.  The road is still free.  However, I can see you are sitting in traffic and I'm late for a meeting in Altamonte Springs, so I can decide to pay a premium to pass you.

The key here is that it's not like the normal toll roads.  It has both free and pay options.  The benefit to you (the one opposed to pay for a free road) is that for every car like me (the ones who are willing to pay for faster service) that takes one more car out of your free section and makes your travel faster, too.  We both win. 

I win by getting to my destination much faster and you win in the wallet, but get the added perk of your way trip being a tiny bit faster, too.

[WAJAS]

13 hours ago, HankStrong said:

The best part of this type of system is that if you do not wish to pay a single toll on I-4, you never have to.  You have the exact same number of lanes as you had access to before.  The lanes didn't decrease.  The road is still free.  However, I can see you are sitting in traffic and I'm late for a meeting in Altamonte Springs, so I can decide to pay a premium to pass you.

The key here is that it's not like the normal toll roads.  It has both free and pay options.  The benefit to you (the one opposed to pay for a free road) is that for every car like me (the ones who are willing to pay for faster service) that takes one more car out of your free section and makes your travel faster, too.  We both win. 

I win by getting to my destination much faster and you win in the wallet, but get the added perk of your way trip being a tiny bit faster, too.

Not just a tiny bit faster either. It may sound counterintuitive, but it’s true.

Because the speed of the cars in the express lanes is greater than the free lanes, the commute in the free lanes could at times be increased by more than just adding two lanes to the free lanes.

[aent]

19 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

Not just a tiny bit faster either. It may sound counterintuitive, but it’s true.

Because the speed of the cars in the express lanes is greater than the free lanes, the commute in the free lanes could at times be increased by more than just adding two lanes to the free lanes.

Yup, I lived near Miami when they started the conversion..... they didn't actually add much pavement, but simply restriped the roadway and add plastic poles to convert the HOV lane to 2 express lanes, also reducing the width of the other lanes by 1 ft to make room for the new lane without extensive road work. With adding a single lane and the variable toll system, there was a rush hour improvement in the HOV lane from an average of 20mph to 60mph, and in the free lanes, from 15-20mph to 41-51mph.. Thats removing a free lane, reducing the width of the other free lanes, in order to add 1 new lane.

The Miami project also brought in way more revenue the originally anticipated, and the optional tolls began to fund free roadside assistance for both the paid and free lanes, subsidizing a express bus that utilizes the lanes, 22 ramp upgrades, and literally all of the maintenance on the highway, both free and paid lanes, so 95 in the areas with express lanes no longer require any tax dollars to operate, freeing up the money for other areas.

Considering that Orlando is simply adding 2 new lanes without the disadvantages of the Miami system, there is every reason to believe that upon completion of I-4 Ultimate, we should expect a speed increase of 20mph in the free lanes, and a speed increase of 40mph in the paid lanes, on average during peak periods.

Also, while we aren't getting "more" free lanes, we really are, because they are including many additional miles of free auxillary lanes and ramps that weren't there previously.

I'm pretty anti-tax and anti-toll, but I absolutely love this system. If only they'd convert 408 to have some free lanes and variable tolling on the paid ones....

[AndyPok1]

Also, they're redoing every awful 50s/60s era interchange/ramp that was built when the metro was 10% of what it is today.  That alone will make so much difference that people don't realize.

[cwetteland]

7 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

Also, they're redoing every awful 50s/60s era interchange/ramp that was built when the metro was 10% of what it is today.  That alone will make so much difference that people don't realize.

I believe there is at least one place that they are dropping the ball on this.  The Conroy exit off WB I-4 goes up to a traffic light that is always backed up.  No change except maybe a wider exit to accommodate the backed up traffic.

[smileguy]

2 hours ago, cwetteland said:

I believe there is at least one place that they are dropping the ball on this.  The Conroy exit off WB I-4 goes up to a traffic light that is always backed up.  No change except maybe a wider exit to accommodate the backed up traffic.

That's correct - an additional lane from OBT to Conroy. It seems to me that when this is backed up, its due to local traffic going into the mall area, and would require an extensive reconfiguration of those surface streets to move around that traffic better. Maybe direct access to the mall parking lot from I-4 Eastbound could have taken some of those cars off of Conroy.  

[Jernigan]

I4 Ultimate: 21 miles Kirkman to Longwood

I4 Beyond the Ultimate: 20 miles on either end of Ultimate extending the express lanes out to Polk County and into Volusia (SR 472).

Im not going to thread nazi and ask people to sort out their posts but just wanted to include that in case it gets lost on people just now reading the thread.     

[smileguy]

41 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

I4 Ultimate: 21 miles Kirkman to Longwood

I4 Beyond the Ultimate: 20 miles on either end of Ultimate extending the express lanes out to Polk County and into Volusia (SR 472).

Im not going to thread nazi and ask people to sort out their posts but just wanted to include that in case it gets lost on people just now reading the thread.     

Any way to merge the threads? Even the FDOT website now is calling it "Ultimate and Beyond."

[Dean wormer]

I think it’s important to remember that “just adding lanes” does not in the long run solve traffic problems. It’s called “induced demand”. I guess you could have made I4 6-7 lanes each direction if you wanted to. But all that would do is cause demand for the road to surge and then proceed to overwhelm the new interchanges and ramps  and increase suburban sprawl  (something we have quite enough of already)

Bad / old / short / clogged exit and entrance ramps cause quite a few highway backups and I4 had some of the worst. 

I do wish they would have found a way to keep the eastbound exit at Ivanhoe. 

[HankStrong]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:30 PM, Dean wormer said:

I think it’s important to remember that “just adding lanes” does not in the long run solve traffic problems. It’s called “induced demand”. I guess you could have made I4 6-7 lanes each direction if you wanted to. But all that would do is cause demand for the road to surge and then proceed to overwhelm the new interchanges and ramps  and increase suburban sprawl  (something we have quite enough of already)

Bad / old / short / clogged exit and entrance ramps cause quite a few highway backups and I4 had some of the worst. 

I do wish they would have found a way to keep the eastbound exit at Ivanhoe. 

I just wanted to say I like the reference in your nick.

 

Plus your comment is solid.

[HankStrong]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 11:08 PM, aent said:

I'm pretty anti-tax and anti-toll, but I absolutely love this system. If only they'd convert 408 to have some free lanes and variable tolling on the paid ones....

I wanted to point out that my feelings for the express lanes on 528 (forever the BEE-line, Spense!  FOREVER!) and Florida's Turnpike are the exact opposite.  I hate this.  You're double-dipping on the toll?  A toll on top of the toll on the toll road?  What the?

http://floridaexpresslanes.com/centralfl/

[sethM]

On 6/7/2019 at 9:30 PM, Dean wormer said:

I think it’s important to remember that “just adding lanes” does not in the long run solve traffic problems. It’s called “induced demand”. I guess you could have made I4 6-7 lanes each direction if you wanted to.

Simply adding lanes also creates a lot more traffic as everyone wants to use the left lane until they’re half a mile from their exit and then have to cross over 6 lanes, and those just getting on want to cross those 6 lanes into the fast lane. It ends up making everything just as inefficient. 

The way they’re doing it is the right way. 

[HankStrong]

16 hours ago, sethM said:

Simply adding lanes also creates a lot more traffic as everyone wants to use the left lane until they’re half a mile from their exit and then have to cross over 6 lanes, and those just getting on want to cross those 6 lanes into the fast lane. It ends up making everything just as inefficient. 

The way they’re doing it is the right way. 

This morning.  White minivan with New Jersey plates.  Merges onto I-4.  Immediately forcibly moves over to left lane, just butting in and not caring.  Speed limit is 60.  Traffic is going 70.  NJ fools are now going 45.  Two exits later they force their way over to the right and exit.

[spenser1058]

41 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

This morning.  White minivan with New Jersey plates.  Merges onto I-4.  Immediately forcibly moves over to left lane, just butting in and not caring.  Speed limit is 60.  Traffic is going 70.  NJ fools are now going 45.  Two exits later they force their way over to the right and exit.

I’ve never been a violent sort but if I ever went to Jersey I suspect I might become so. It’s probably best I just have Springsteen on vinyl and stay away.

[jrs2]

On 6/7/2019 at 9:30 PM, Dean wormer said:

I think it’s important to remember that “just adding lanes” does not in the long run solve traffic problems. It’s called “induced demand”. I guess you could have made I4 6-7 lanes each direction if you wanted to. But all that would do is cause demand for the road to surge and then proceed to overwhelm the new interchanges and ramps  and increase suburban sprawl  (something we have quite enough of already)

Bad / old / short / clogged exit and entrance ramps cause quite a few highway backups and I4 had some of the worst. 

I do wish they would have found a way to keep the eastbound exit at Ivanhoe. 

Ok... I absolutely LOVE your screen name!  

10 hours ago, HankStrong said:

This morning.  White minivan with New Jersey plates.  Merges onto I-4.  Immediately forcibly moves over to left lane, just butting in and not caring.  Speed limit is 60.  Traffic is going 70.  NJ fools are now going 45.  Two exits later they force their way over to the right and exit.

I'll see your NJ fools and raise you:

I'm in the right lane on I-4 about to get into the exit lane for The Diz.  A-hole comes up behind me, passes me to the right.  I'm thinking he really needs to get to Diz Springs quickly.  No no… He passes me in the exit lane and then gets back in front of me...  

[nite owℓ]

^usually that means you were driving too slow and your minivan blocked his sightline...

I just love it when cars in the merge lane think it gives them a pass to blatantly disregard ample opportunities to merge and overtake everyone at the last second while in the shoulder.

Edited June 14, 2019 by nite owℓ

[cwetteland]

You guys do realize you are talking about 1-4 Ultimate.  This is the "Beyond the Ultimate" thread.  A whole different project.

[Jvest55]

25 minutes ago, cwetteland said:

You guys do realize you are talking about 1-4 Ultimate.  This is the "Beyond the Ultimate" thread.  A whole different project.

Well that's confusing 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, cwetteland said:

You guys do realize you are talking about 1-4 Ultimate.  This is the "Beyond the Ultimate" thread.  A whole different project.

Is Beyond the project that deals with 528 to US 27, and SR 434 to SR 472 or SR 44?

[spenser1058]

9 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Is Beyond the project that deals with 528 to US 27, and SR 434 to SR 472 or SR 44?

Just call those “Lost In Space”

[cwetteland]

13 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Is Beyond the project that deals with 528 to US 27, and SR 434 to SR 472 or SR 44?

Yes