Hampton Roads Off-Topic Talk

[urbanvb]

If someone recently tried to PM me the message was not received. Urbanplanet said I had a message but then when I went to retrieve it there was an error.

[urbanvb]

I saw a website posted in the NC forum and found it to be very informative for city demographics, etc. You can check it out here.

[sugoiben]

I saw a website posted in the NC forum and found it to be very informative for city demographics, etc. You can check it out here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha, I love it, they have a breakdown of starbucks per capita.

So not surprised that Falls Church tops the list.

[rusthebuss]

I disagree with that -- strongly, in fact -- and think that Mayor Fraim's appearance with Mayor Oberndorf at a news conference last week underscores his recognition that all our ships rise and fall together.

Edited August 3, 2005 by rusthebuss

[Cobalt]

I repectfully disagree on how Oceana will affect Norfolk's economy. Most of Oceanas core men live in Vabeach and spend their money in Vabeach. Remember I worked there and socialized with the people who were stationed there. Most of the contractors don't live in the area due to the govt. awarding so many contracts to different companies every so often to keep it fair. I think the Mayor of Vabeach asked for the support of the Norfolk mayor Fraim and its good to finally see the two mayors working together. I'm not saying that it will not affect the Vabeach economy because it most definitly will and that it will leave a hole in their economy. Most people around Oceana feel that Norfolk is too far to drive and stay in that area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to take this too far off-topic, but I'm curious on your perspective of where all the money is coming from to pay such enormous prices for real estate in this area. Although I'm in the R.E. business, most of my company's work is elsewhere, and I rarely interact with buyers anyway.

But when I look at job postings in this area, I don't see much that's really great-paying, yet there seems to be no shortage of moneyed buyers.

In fact, I would say there's a good chance that no one who lives in my building could buy at today's prices, other than the Oceana pilot -- who's the only one who paid anywhere close to what the units would fetch today.

[rusthebuss]

Not to take this too far off-topic, but I'm curious on your perspective of where all the money is coming from to pay such enormous prices for real estate in this area.

Edited August 3, 2005 by rusthebuss

[Cobalt]

Well if you remember Fraim did say that there are more buildings in the works with potential developers so maybe its possible. Norfolk is very behind in what it should  be for as old and its size and this regions size.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I'm *really* getting off-topic for what's a Granby Tower thread -- my apologies -- but did you read the "Yellow Fever" series in the VA-Pilot? (It's on-topic in that it focused on DT Norfolk. )

I wasn't interested in the articles at all until my parents were so enamored of it. So, I read it, and it was amazing to me to consider how much an epidemic in the late 1800s so radically shaped what this area became for many decades.

Long story short, according to the series, many of the areas's best and brightest were killed, and the only way lots of people could make money was with prostitution and saloons, which, of course, is what Granby was known for in the 1930s, '40s, and beyond. Who's to say how Norfolk (and Portsmouth) might've been different if that plague hadn't occurred.

[hoobo]

These high-rise, upscale condos are not counting on military personnel as their potential buyers. They're counting on young professionals or middle-age empty nesters. The people who make money in the Navy, i.e. Commanders, etc., usually have families so would opt for houses in VB or Cpeake. They're not the target buyer. That's not to say losing Oceana wouldn't have an impact, just not one that would undermine the housing market.

Remember, if Oceana closes, it wouldn't be for another 10-15 if they recommended closure now. There's no way they can get a new base up and operational (or convert another facility), move the planes, and decommission Oceana in less than 10 years. Also, jobs numbers for Oceana include Dam Neck and Chambers, neither of which would close.

[rusthebuss]

Okay, I'm *really* getting off-topic for what's a Granby Tower thread -- my apologies -- but did you read the "Yellow Fever" series in the VA-Pilot?  (It's on-topic in that it focused on DT Norfolk.      )

I wasn't interested in the articles at all until my parents were so enamored of it.  So, I read it, and it was amazing to me to consider how much an epidemic in the late 1800s so radically shaped what this area became for many decades.

Long story short, according to the series, many of the areas's best and brightest were killed, and the only way lots of people could make money was with prostitution and saloons, which, of course, is what Granby was known for in the 1930s, '40s, and beyond.  Who's to say how Norfolk (and Portsmouth) might've been different if that plague hadn't occurred.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've thought the same things. I know it could have been huge if not for that yellow fever. If you ever seen how this area was growing before then it was amazing. We had street cars and such. Hey vdogg, could you move this to the off topic thread and sorry.

[rusthebuss]

These high-rise, upscale condos are not counting on military personnel as their potential buyers.

Edited August 3, 2005 by rusthebuss

[Cobalt]

I don't see the market slowing down but what I don't understand is why is Norfolk building some suburban developments but pushing some urban developments. I think Norfolk should stick with strictly Urban development to change the city in the right direction. I think there should be 5-10 story condos and apt. all around the city and not just DT or somemore Townhouses or row housing. We are a city not a suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Granby Tower and projects like it are steps in the right direction.

Interestingly, the Norfolk Preservation Alliance recently sponsored a speaker who's written a well-regarded book on urbanism. His criticism of Norfolk was what you cited: Suburban development in an urban area. I didn't recognize the slide he showed when he said that, but I think it was one of the newer mixed-income neighborhoods.

His point is that a city has to be a certain density to be self-sustaining, and that the density in that newly-rebuilt neighborhood (single-family homes) was just too low to be appropriate.

[urbanvb]

I too have been wondering just WHO these folks are that are buying these high priced units. Are MOST empty nesters or just who.. I too don't see that many folks moving in the area with jobs that could afford them to live in such areas. If there are any realtors out there - here or LURKING around! - please, let us know!!

Edited August 3, 2005 by guynvb

[rusthebuss]

Granby Tower and projects like it are steps in the right direction.

Interestingly, the Norfolk Preservation Alliance recently sponsored a speaker who's written a well-regarded book on urbanism.  His criticism of Norfolk was what you cited: Suburban development in an urban area.  I didn't recognize the slide he showed when he said that, but I think it was one of the newer mixed-income neighborhoods.

His point is that a city has to be a certain density to be self-sustaining, and that the density in that newly-rebuilt neighborhood (single-family homes) was just too low to be appropriate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably talking about Broad Creek, which I think is stupid. Sometimes I wonder where the cities heads are at???? I know that its the developers that want to build these but the city should set standard and get rid of the suburban developments and hope that someone from the city reads this.

[hoobo]

I too agree with you. It will take a gradual process to get a base together. I don't see the market slowing down but what I don't understand is why is Norfolk building some suburban developments but pushing some urban developments. I think Norfolk should stick with strictly Urban development to change the city in the right direction. I think there should be 5-10 story condos and apt. all around the city and not just DT or somemore Townhouses or row housing. We are a city not a suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having single family homes is not suburban. Tract homes are. Norfolk is not going to uproot all of its old neighborhoods in favor of mid-rise condos and apartments. Imagine: a mid-rise condo in the middle of single-family homes. Also, row houses are urban. You have them in NYC, Boston, Baltimore, DC, and Chicago. Heck, you even have them in London, Dublin, and Paris. Americans like having a backyard. Norfolk is not going to lose those residents.

[rusthebuss]

Having single family homes is not suburban.  Tract homes are.  Norfolk is not going to uproot all of its old neighborhoods in favor of mid-rise condos and apartments.  Imagine:  a mid-rise condo in the middle of single-family homes.  Also, row houses are urban.  You have them in NYC, Boston, Baltimore, DC, and Chicago.  Heck, you even have them in London, Dublin, and Paris.  Americans like having a backyard.  Norfolk is not going to lose those residents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can build them with small backyards that are urban. Shoot I live in a suburban house in Bayview but I wish they were more urban. Look at the style houses in Old Huntersville. That is the way alot of these houses should be.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

I too have been wondering just WHO these folks are that are buying these high priced units. Are MOST empty nesters or just who.. I too don't see that many folks moving in the area with jobs that could afford them to live in such areas. If there are any realtors out there  - here or LURKING around!  -  please, let us know!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps this will help out. I can tell you about the mix of folks who purchased and moved into RiverPark Condominium downtown in the past 1-2 years. Prices at that time ranged from $250,000 to $495,000. There is a mixture of retirees, empty nesters from suburbia like myself and my wife, and the young professional couples. The retirees seem to have plenty of $$$, the empty nesters have one big wage earner or two solid ones or are business owners, and the younger folks are in good positions or are business owners. Most all moved from elsewhere in this area, not from other states or elsewhere in Virginia.

[urbanvb]

Sounds like a good mix - but- most are people in the area simply relocating. Maybe one day good jobs will come in our area with new people who can also afford these properties.

[sugoiben]

I too have been wondering just WHO these folks are that are buying these high priced units. Are MOST empty nesters or just who.. I too don't see that many folks moving in the area with jobs that could afford them to live in such areas. If there are any realtors out there  - here or LURKING around!  -  please, let us know!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know I posed this same question months ago in this same thread I think. I was perplexed by the fact that downtown could be booming with condos priced so high. Not only the fact that the top tier of these cost several million dollars, but even the low end ones that are what? like 250K? I mean, about 5 years ago 250K would have bought you a pretty big house in a nice neighborhood in some suburban Va Beach or Chesapeake neighborhood. And I realize that prices have skyrockted since then, but certainly wages havn't kept pace. And though it may not be the popular choice amongst present company, that suburban home with it's yard and several bedrooms, has a much broader appeal than a downtown condo. Obviously there are interested parties, 800 of them at least. But I agree, that of that 800 how many could really qualify for financing to actually get one of these places. And even then, how many of what's left are gonna actually be willing to take the plunge and not just decide to look elsewhere.

[urbanvb]

I don't think I mentioned this earlier but some who are moving here are retired people who can sell their very expensive property up north and pay cash (or almost) and live quite comfortably in our area.

[urbanvb]

I don't think wages have kept pace either.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Having single family homes is not suburban.  Tract homes are.  Norfolk is not going to uproot all of its old neighborhoods in favor of mid-rise condos and apartments.  Imagine:  a mid-rise condo in the middle of single-family homes.  Also, row houses are urban.  You have them in NYC, Boston, Baltimore, DC, and Chicago.  Heck, you even have them in London, Dublin, and Paris.  Americans like having a backyard.  Norfolk is not going to lose those residents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes a good point... Americans love their backyards. I don't think it's right to blame the city for somewhat suburban developments when it's American society that shapes these developments. For many decades, a home in the burbs with a quarter acre was the dream and developers gave people what there was demand for. The city can set zoning regulations, but it's silly to expect them to say "only mid-rise, multi-unit housing from now on" when developers are making a fortune with projects like East Beach.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I don't think I mentioned this earlier but some who are moving here are retired people who can sell their very expensive property up north and pay cash (or almost) and live quite comfortably in our area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My old math teacher has parents from NYC. They lived in a surburban area on Long Island in a rather large (3500ish s/f) home that was priced well into the millions. They're getting a house in Fords Colony (Williamsburg) for a little under 2 million and it will be one of the most expensive homes in the neighborhood. They'll be saving several million on their new house and their new one will be much larger as well. That shows what our market is compared to the NE, though I realize not all prices are at NYC levels.

[Cobalt]

That makes a good point... Americans love their backyards.  I don't think it's right to blame the city for somewhat suburban developments when it's American society that shapes these developments.  For many decades, a home in the burbs with a quarter acre was the dream and developers gave people what there was demand for.  The city can set zoning regulations, but it's silly to expect them to say "only mid-rise, multi-unit housing from now on" when developers are making a fortune with projects like East Beach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish I could provide a link for you to a really interesting article the Washington Post published recently. The title was something along the lines of, "The Suburbs Have Won."

It was thought-provoking for me because I'd always (probably foolishly) considered the suburbs a -- fairly -- uniquely American phenomenon. And although we may live that life in the extreme, compared to other nations, the article was saying that even fabled cities in Europe and Asian countries have been losing population. Besides the cost of housing in the cities, there was some of the same desire for a patch of ground to call one's own.

Of course, the article also mentioned the news that was reported so much several weeks ago: That a number of U.S. cities that had gained population in the '90s and sparked talk of a new urbanism were once again losing population.

I'm glad that Norfolk thus far seems to be bucking the rebuff of urban living, but maybe it shouldn't be too surprising since the residents of this area, until the last several years, had no true opportunity for downtown living, and certainly nothing as high-style as Granby Tower.

Great signature line, by the way.

[urbanvb]

The suburbs might have won but there is an astronomical push in many US cities toward more urban development - including some cities that never were and now are becoming! (i.e. Va Beach). The flood of urban development that is going on is totally amazing. And I wonder if anyone saw this coming.. I was watching a tv show recently that said in the next 4-5 years for the first time more people will live in the inner cities than ever before. I think a lot of people are tired of traffic, long commutes and also are looking for a sense of community that an urban lifestyle can afford. And perhaps the grass is not always greener on the other side.

[sugoiben]

The suburbs might have won but there is an astronomical push in many US cities toward more urban development - including some cities that never were and now are becoming! (i.e. Va Beach). The flood of urban development that is going on is totally amazing. And I wonder if anyone saw this coming..    I was watching a tv show recently that said in the next 4-5 years for the first time more people will live in the inner cities than ever before. I think a lot of people are tired of traffic, long commutes and also are looking for a sense of community that an urban lifestyle can afford. And perhaps the grass is not always greener on the other side. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just the thing though, there was a study/article/something recently that I saw too that mentioned that the urban growth thing that has been occuring the last several years is starting to reverse again. People are moving back to the suburbs again. I think it said something along the lines of the urban cores were once bargain areas, but now that the housing market is going nuts, and inner cities are so popular, people would rather get a house in the burbs than spend so much for just a condo. The bargains that drove the growth have dried up, so apparently ppl are looking elsewhere.