CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tusculan]

I prefer option B. I think actually serving downtown Matthews is important....Not just sniffing close to it. In some ways, I would prefer D, but I don't think that will get done, and the time and difficulty will be too much. A is nice in that it provides a stop at WT Harris....but not enough  for me to favor it.

I would like to point out that on both C and D maps, we should not overlook the proposed stations or lack thereof. They put one station between Wendover/Eastway and Sharon Amity/Albemarle. I know this is early...but this is an important idea. To plan something so expensive and then only provide 3 stops immediately outside of uptown is ridiculous. It is 3.71 miles as the crow flies from Independence/Charlottetown to Sharon Amity/Independence. For 3 stops? 

In the same distance, there are five stops in South End out to Woodlawn. And there will soon be 5 by Tom Hunter on the BLE. Meanwhile, the 2nd stage of the Gold line, will cover over a dozen stops in this same distance. This may not seem like much...but it is important for density and success of the line that there actually are stops on the line. 

Plus, I should state...these two stops are not insignificant - one provides for future multi-modal connectivity from Sugar Creek around the NE side of the city and also to the S side to woodlawn. And the other provides a direct way to connect transit to the Southpark area. I don't see having a line without both of these as stops.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by tusculan

[Deleted.]

/\ Option B takes the Silver Line through Matthews as a streetcar line and whats the point of that?

 

To be honest, I prefer Route A due to the fact of faster travel time and the least amount of property impact. But as others have said, C would probably be the best option for TOD and fast travel time. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Piedmont767

[Bikeguy]

Let's not pull another Pineville where we ended the Blue Line short of what could have been a dynamo of a transit centric town. 

 

[tusculan]

3 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

Let's not pull another Pineville where we ended the Blue Line short of what could have been a dynamo of a transit centric town. 

 

I couldn't agree more. Speaking of which, does anyone know: Is there a standing offer to the town of Pineville such that if they agree to come up with X dollars, the Blue Line will be automatically extended? If there isn't, I think the building of the Silver Line to Matthews is a good chance to try and convince Pineville of the benefits of continuing the Blue Line.

Also, related to my earlier posts on the number of stops. The orientation of the Silver Line outside of uptown is affected by the Uptown routing. On all of these options, the closet stop after Charlottetown/Independence is at Pecan. If the Route goes down Stonewall or Morehead, this is not a concern. But if the routing goes north to 12th street, this is problematic as there will be no direct interchange with the Gold Line. Instead one will have to walk a couple of blocks to make a connection. I would advocate that if the Line is to go to the North side of uptown, there needs to also be a stop at Hawthorne as well as Pecan.

Edited April 25, 2016 by tusculan

[kermit]

^ at the time Pineville made its decision to not consent to the Blue Line there was a sense this was a 'final and forever' choice. The Pineville mayor was concerned about the LRT 'destroying the character' of the town.   I don't think it occurred to anyone that the decision might need to be revisited so promises to extend later seem unlikely.

Ironically, Pineville's rejection of the Blue Line did CATS a favor, the decision was made before the construction budget blewup in 2005 (Chinese economic expansion sent the cost of steel and concrete through the roof and the engineering contractor did a crappy job with design (IMO)). Lots of stuff got chopped from the Blue Line in 2005 (three car platforms, a ped bridge over 277 along side the rail bridge, etc.) and I suspect the Pineville stop would have gotten the axe as well (the bridge over 485 was $$$$ and the station did not promise much ridership). If CATS cancelled rail to an outlying town there would have been a political mess at the MTC.

[Matthew.Brendan]

That's fine. Pineville will come around to their senses. Or not. First we take Matthews.... then Monroe

[orulz]

Admittedly, this is not on anybody's agenda right now, but I would like to see the Blue Line Extension exended one mile east from its currently planned terminus to the corner of University City Blvd and Mallard Creek Church Rd. This would be a great site for a future commuter rail station, and was/is actually under consideration as a possible site for a northern suburban intercity station as well.

In the BLX thread, some expressed misgivings that this might not be possible due to existing buildings or topography but some quick armchair civil engineering indicates that it would definitely be possible, with built environment impacts limited to a couple dilapidated buildings and a couple of parking lot reconfigurations.

Climb at a steep-ish 4.5% grade for the first 900ft through a trench under Poplar Lane in front of the facilities building. Then climb at a steady 2% for the next 2900ft, first on a 500' viaduct over Mary Alexander and Darryl McCall, then at grade up to a grade crossing of John Kirk, then on fill up to University City Blvd. Then a 1000' viaduct over University City Blvd and the future extension of Mallard Creek Church Rd, descending at 2% down to the level of the NCRR where a transfer station and large parking deck would be located.

[tozmervo]

9 minutes ago, orulz said:

Alignment map here.

Methinks that's not the link you intended...

[orulz]

Try this one:

Alignment Map

[orulz]

Here is an annotated elevation profile, generated from Google Earth whose topo maps are not extremely precise. Red would be fill. Looking at it now, it might make more sense to just start the University City Blvd viaduct 500 or so feet further west, lengthening it to 1500ft, which may lessen impacts or even reduce costs. Elevation profile would remain the same: up 4.5% for 900ft, up 2% for 2900ft, down 2% for 1000ft.

[kermit]

^ I have long been preaching the need for the Blue Line Extension to connect to intercity trains at 49/485. Thanks for doing the math and showing that it is totally possible!

[Silicon Dogwoods]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:29 AM, kermit said:

^ at the time Pineville made its decision to not consent to the Blue Line there was a sense this was a 'final and forever' choice. The Pineville mayor was concerned about the LRT 'destroying the character' of the town.   I don't think it occurred to anyone that the decision might need to be revisited so promises to extend later seem unlikely.

Ironically, Pineville's rejection of the Blue Line did CATS a favor, the decision was made before the construction budget blewup in 2005 (Chinese economic expansion sent the cost of steel and concrete through the roof and the engineering contractor did a crappy job with design (IMO)). Lots of stuff got chopped from the Blue Line in 2005 (three car platforms, a ped bridge over 277 along side the rail bridge, etc.) and I suspect the Pineville stop would have gotten the axe as well (the bridge over 485 was $$$$ and the station did not promise much ridership). If CATS cancelled rail to an outlying town there would have been a political mess at the MTC.

That's just so unbelievably boneheaded. There are lots of charming towns in America with urban rail service.

[alb1no panther]

On April 25, 2016 at 0:29 PM, kermit said:

^ at the time Pineville made its decision to not consent to the Blue Line there was a sense this was a 'final and forever' choice. The Pineville mayor was concerned about the LRT 'destroying the character' of the town.   I don't think it occurred to anyone that the decision might need to be revisited so promises to extend later seem unlikely.

Ironically, Pineville's rejection of the Blue Line did CATS a favor, the decision was made before the construction budget blewup in 2005 (Chinese economic expansion sent the cost of steel and concrete through the roof and the engineering contractor did a crappy job with design (IMO)). Lots of stuff got chopped from the Blue Line in 2005 (three car platforms, a ped bridge over 277 along side the rail bridge, etc.) and I suspect the Pineville stop would have gotten the axe as well (the bridge over 485 was $$$$ and the station did not promise much ridership). If CATS cancelled rail to an outlying town there would have been a political mess at the MTC.

so what you're saying is this stuff is really really complicated and what Charlotte is building is actually super quality development?  sounds right to me.  sometimes we lose perspective.  

[Norm2]

2 minutes ago, alb1no panther said:

so what you're saying is this stuff is really really complicated and what Charlotte is building is actually super quality development?  sounds right to me.  sometimes we lose perspective.  

Pineville optoed to not have the light rail due to the fact that Charlotte was requiring for higher density zoning to be around stations. Pineville refused to follow the higher density zoning due to traffic concerns and to preserve its small downtown feel.

[Third Strike]

I'm in favor for extending the Blue Line into Pineville, but not towards their downtown. Run it next to I-485 into Ballantyne, with a station near the Carolina Place Mall. It might even encourage General Growth Properties to redevelop their mall, or at least parking lot, into something urban and walkable. For Pineville's downtown, I think a station along a Charlotte/Columbia commuter line would be more suited than light rail.

[RiverwoodCLT]

In Denver, Charlotte leaders look at what the future might hold for transit

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article74368437.html

I get out to Denver about once a year.  What Denver metro is doing in transit,  has surprise me that the leaders in Charlotte did not know about their transit.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article74368437.html#storylink=cphttp://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/development/article74368437.htmly

[tozmervo]

Apropos data for use in the transit connection to the airport debate

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/planes-trains-and-taxis-when-to-take-public-transit-from-the-airport/

[elrodvt]

The Denver line is open and for downtown I would take it over a taxi every time. Here, given the competition is a $12 uber ride and traffics not a problem, i would not invest in anything other than more frequent sprinter service and special nice buses with wifi. The sprinter bus is not very nice inside. 

BTW, I tried to take the sprinter last weekend. The driver paused at the stop, looked at me walking towards the bus with my bags, and took off. Nice.... They say they cannot find the video tape for some reason and I had to settle for a 10 ride coupon as compensation. If that happens to someone who's not a hard core transit supporter it would be their last ride. They need to clean up their act!

[kermit]

Open streets 704 around 1:30pm. It was great, wide range of folks. I think the weird weather kept the crowds from reaching their full potential. 

NoDa really shined, Brevard around 13th had 4-5 food trucks and that really changed the street.

We gotta do this more often!

 

[Spartan]

There is a new proposed bill (HB988) that would remove the $500k funding cap on light rail projects. While this doesn't affect the BLE, if passed it would affect future efforts for the Silver Line and, more immediately, the Durham-Chapel Hill line in the Triangle.

[CLTProductions]

12 minutes ago, Spartan said:

There is a new proposed bill (HB988) that would remove the $500k funding cap on light rail projects. While this doesn't affect the BLE, if passed it would affect future efforts for the Silver Line and, more immediately, the Durham-Chapel Hill line in the Triangle.

This is actually a good thing. Currently there's a cap on how much money can be pulled from highway funds to support light rail. This would eliminate that cap 

[kermit]

Efforts in the NCGA to remove the punitive $500,000 cap on state funding for light rail have met with resistance:

http://www.wral.com/bill-that-could-help-durham-orange-light-rail-meets-with-resistance-from-rural-lawmkaers/15695826/

a choice quote from an Onslow County rep:

""I'd like to know what data, what science, (supports) using a 19th-century technology. How is that going to trump spending on infrastructure?" Brown said. "This is going to be a mode of transportation that is going to have to be subsidized by people who will never use this. We are not England. We are not France. We don't have the density of population. This is a feel-good kind of thing, I didn't come here to do this."

ahhh, North Carolina....

[alb1no panther]

And that's why you're in Onslow County, because you're too short-sighted to see that you can't have density first and then try to build through it.  This stuff needs to be thought out ahead of time.  Oh, and you also don't need to be France and England . . . you could be, ya know, Denver, and this "19th-Century technology" could solve a HUGE problem.  Besides, why are we supposed to assume that old solutions are bad . . . the wheel still works, huh?  Something tells me Onslow County sucks.

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Efforts in the NCGA to remove the punitive $500,000 cap on state funding for light rail have met with resistance:

http://www.wral.com/bill-that-could-help-durham-orange-light-rail-meets-with-resistance-from-rural-lawmkaers/15695826/

a choice quote from an Onslow County rep:

""I'd like to know what data, what science, (supports) using a 19th-century technology. How is that going to trump spending on infrastructure?" Brown said. "This is going to be a mode of transportation that is going to have to be subsidized by people who will never use this. We are not England. We are not France. We don't have the density of population. This is a feel-good kind of thing, I didn't come here to do this."

ahhh, North Carolina....

Regarding the 19th century technology comment: So are cars. Just as it is ignorant to compare the Model T to the cars of today, it is ignorant to compare an early electrified trolley to the Siemens S70.

Regarding the comments about people in their districts subsidizing but not using the LRT trains: How much do the urban voters in the state subsidize your roads and school systems?  Was it not you, Mr. Brown, who proposed a massive redistribution of sales tax money from urban counties to rural counties to support projects that the urban voters will never use.  I will remind you that the urban counties are net donors in terms of taxes and rural counties are net recipients, so I ask you who subsidizes who?

Regarding the comment about spending on infrastructure: Last time I checked, rail systems were a form of infrastructure.

Regarding not having the density to support these projects: It's not just about having mega densities.  Charlotte is not a very dense city but it's LRT system has been a resounding success. Density will come with time, but it's very hard to retroactively build something like a rail system when the density is already there.  You need to plan ahead especially in our super fast growing areas like Charlotte and the Triangle.

Regarding it being a feel good kind of thing: Yes it does feel good to whisk by gridlocked traffic in a train rather that being stuck in said traffic.  It feels good to ride a very smooth train versus having a sore back from all the craters in the road that you've hit while driving.  Yes it does feel good to browse the Internet, take a nap, or simply watch the world pass by rather than having all attention dedicated to driving.  It also feels good to know that I am 1000 times less likely to get seriously injured or die while taking a train as I would be if I were making the same trip in a car.

Regarding "I didn't come here to do this": Then please for the love of God, leave.  If you promise to leave NC and never come back I will personally buy you a plane ticket to any destination you want to go (preferably a destination that is at least ten time zones away).  You and the others like you have been nothing but a cancer on the once great state of NC.  Your absence would be nothing but positive for NC.

Edited May 11, 2016 by cltbwimob

[rancenc]

47 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

Regarding the 19th century technology comment: So are cars. Just as it is ignorant to compare the Model T to the cars of today, it is ignorant to compare an early electrified trolley to the Siemens S70.

Regarding the comments about people in their districts subsidizing but not using the LRT trains: How much do the urban voters in the state subsidize your roads and school systems?  Was it not you, Mr. Brown, who proposed a massive redistribution of sales tax money from urban counties to rural counties to support projects that the urban voters will never use.  I will remind you that the urban counties are net donors in terms of taxes and rural counties are net recipients, so I ask you who subsidizes who?

Regarding the comment about spending on infrastructure: Last time I checked, rail systems were a form of infrastructure.

Regarding not having the density to support these projects: It's not just about having mega densities.  Charlotte is not a very dense city but it's LRT system has been a resounding success. Density will come with time, but it's very hard to retroactively build something like a rail system when the density is already there.  You need to plan ahead especially in our super fast growing areas like Charlotte and the Triangle.

Regarding it being a feel good kind of thing: Yes it does feel good to whisk by gridlocked traffic in a train rather that being stuck in said traffic.  It feels good to ride a very smooth train versus having a sore back from all the craters in the road that you've hit while driving.  Yes it does feel good to browse the Internet, take a nap, or simply watch the world pass by rather than having all attention dedicated to driving.  It also feels good to know that I am 1000 times less likely to get seriously injured or die while taking a train as I would be if I were making the same trip in a car.

Regarding "I didn't come here to do this": Then please for the love of God, leave.  If you promise to leave NC and never come back I will personally buy you a plane ticket to any destination you want to go (preferably a destination that is at least ten time zones away).  You and the others like you have been nothing but a cancer on the once great state of NC.  Your absence would be nothing but positive for NC.

I also see Rep Yarborough (the official who made the statement) is not even native North Carolinian.....He is originally from Mississippi!