CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[ah59396]

4 hours ago, Dcarnys said:

This is Charlotte. The Observer comment section types would lose their collective minds.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.  What I find the strangest component of the "OUTRAGED" observer commentators is, they never seem to actually live in Charlotte, or even Meck.  The city/county as a whole, seems to be pretty pro-transit.  I think any marginal tax increase, if presented with a solid plan (which is really the key here) would pass.

[CLT2014]

6 hours ago, Nick2 said:

Looking at Seattle's plan and how they want to pay for it gives me hope. Especially considering how minor their tax increases seem. .5% sales tax increase. .8% motor vehicle excise tax increase and 25 cents per assessed 1,000 dollar value. I personally wouldn't mind at all and very few people would even notice the increases if it wouldn't get lampooned by certain anti-transit politicians.

Then again that 50 billion price tag would be more than enough to scare the general population away from it here.

Seattle's households will be paying about ~$400 more in taxes per year if the ballot measure passes there. Seattle residents are comfortable with consumption tax increases because they don't have income tax. Unfortunately, due to Washington's tax structure with no state income tax, ballot measures like this will most effect the poor (which is where things like this conflict me). Washington already has the most regressive tax system in the USA with poor residents paying 16.8% of family income in state and local taxes while the wealthiest 1 percent pay only 2.4%. By comparison, North Carolina's poorest residents pay 9.2% of their income in state/local taxes, with the top 1 percent paying 5.3%. If this measure passes, Washington will continue to pass even more of the tax burden in their state upon the poor... if I lived in Seattle, I would personally be advocating for a way to pass a transit measure that stops the cycle where the poor pay an every increasing larger share of their income in taxes.

I'm not sure how I would feel about passing a tax measure that would hit Charlotte's poorest residents the most, to fund a light rail line that will be heavily utilized by commuters to Uptown that make some of the highest incomes in the city, and likely lead to a wave of development that just prices the poor out of light rail adjacent neighborhoods. I'm not saying a light rail line won't benefit some poor residents, but I think any measure should include improvements to the bus network (more BRT) as well that truly rounds out service for our poorest residents that would be impacted the most by a consumption tax increase.

Edited March 28, 2016 by CLT2014

[Deleted.]

I'd happily pay tax to get more transit here in CLT. I think that most of CLT and Meck, besides the South Charlotte wedge, supports transit. But we do need a clear transit plan that CATS can actually build out. 

Moving on, seeing as that the Smart Cards are on the agenda for the council today, I was thinking 'What should we call it?' and I thought we should name the card system after something that is "Charlotte", like the Gold Rush, craft beer or banking. So any suggestions for what we should call our Smart Card system?

[kermit]

5 hours ago, Dcarnys said:

This is Charlotte. The Observer comment section types would lose their collective minds.

meh, their impotence was revealed to all during the 2007 transit tax repeal referrendum. The only viagra for them would be gross mismanagement of the BLE. There are no signs of that so far (knock on wood).

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, Piedmont767 said:

I'd happily pay tax to get more transit here in CLT. I think that most of CLT and Meck, besides the South Charlotte wedge, supports transit. But we do need a clear transit plan that CATS can actually build out. 

Moving on, seeing as that the Smart Cards are on the agenda for the council today, I was thinking 'What should we call it?' and I thought we should name the card system after something that is "Charlotte", like the Gold Rush, craft beer or banking. So any suggestions for what we should call our Smart Card system?

A couple posts up I had mentioned "Cheetah" as it fits in with CATS and Lynx and the Carolina Panthers. Smart Cards are quick and easy to use, and cheetahs are speedy animals. That name isn't very Charlotte though. Something to do with the concept of Charlotte being the Queen City would be cool too.

[Spartan]

21 hours ago, Piedmont767 said:

I'm still having a hard time envisioning actual light rail (like the Blue Line) running through Uptown for the Silver Line, without using tunnels. Many streets either can't be closed (like Trade) or seem too narrow (5th). It seems to me that it will likely see streetcar-style service with stops in dedicated lanes rather than large RoW like the Blue Line. 

At the meeting, did CATS touch on how they were planning to route the Silver Line into Uptown?

Why can't Trade Street be closed to traffic? To me that street seems like the ideal candidate for a transit-only street. 1- it already has rail and 2- it's closure while they were building it proved that it isn't an integral part of the transportation network for cars.

[Third Strike]

CATS created a brochure for the Silver Line. I guess they discreetly uploaded the document very recently.

Silver Line Southeast Corridor

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

CATS created a brochure for the Silver Line. I guess they discreetly uploaded the document very recently.

Silver Line Southeast Corridor

Man, I'd love a Stonewall Street Terminus. 

[LKN704]

Interesting.

According to the timeline in the brochure, it appears that they want to have the preferred rail option along with an implementation strategy done no later than this June. That's almost two months away. Doesn't that seem kind of soon? I am impressed though that CATS is attempting to get the ball rolling on this project, but I wonder why now? I would have thought that they would have waited until the BLE is over until they started work on another transit project. CATS has said before that they currently lack any funds to begin another project.

I also believe that this is the first official public document from CATS that envisions a East-West LRT line connecting the airport to Matthews.

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, Third Strike said:

CATS created a brochure for the Silver Line. I guess they discreetly uploaded the document very recently.

Silver Line Southeast Corridor

C-A-A-A-B is my preferred route. Stonewall, down along the side of Independence as far as possible, down to the Sports plex area, to Levine Campus.

Being from Matthews, I have a feeling that it would not only be best if heavy development wasn't focused right through downtown, as the other two routes would do, but to give love to the east side of town (and the east side of Indy as a whole) as much as conceivably possible. There's already a handful of older buildings on Matthews-Mint Hill Rd that could be a sort of historical anchor of future development in their future street grid. That east side of town having transit would allow the hotels and big apartments be in their own "East End" district, while leaving downtown for more incremental, tasteful building (the town absolutely wants to up their urban game). 

Also, it would leave Monroe Rd more room for future bike/ped facilities, and create a fully pedestrian ROW corridor alongside the line, and promote commuter traffic more to Indy, and less to local roads (like the cluster down John st (Monroe Rd toward Union County).

Edited March 28, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[Third Strike]

6 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

C-A-A-A-B is my preferred route. Stonewall, down along the side of Independence as far as possible, down to the Sports plex area, to Levine Campus.

Being from Matthews, I have a feeling that it would not only be best if heavy development wasn't focused right through downtown, as the other two routes would do, but to give love to the east side of town (and the east side of Indy as a whole) as much as conceivably possible. There's already a handful of older buildings on Matthews-Mint Hill Rd that could be an anchor of future development in their future street grid. That east side of town having transit would allow the hotels and big apartments be in their own "East End" district, while leaving downtown for more incremental, modest building.

Also, it would leave Monroe Rd more room for future bike/ped facilities, and create a fully pedestrian ROW corridor alongside the line.

I know the town of Matthews has been planning a mixed use center near the Sportsplex for almost a decade now. On one of the old Silver Line maps, you could see a stop for "Matthews TOD" located east of downtown Matthews. They also created an area plan:

Entertainment Small Area Plan

The Silver Line would do wonders for that area. I could also see Matthews' CBD and this mixed use center slowly converging over time, given their close proximity.

[SgtCampsalot]

2 hours ago, Third Strike said:

 

Entertainment Small Area Plan

The Silver Line would do wonders for that area. I could also see Matthews' CBD and this mixed use center slowly converging over time, given their close proximity.

Mhmm, and yeah, Matthews' Crestdale neighborhood, the part of town to the east that was originally the town's African American part of town (formerly an unincorporated handful of blocks), will eventually be connected to it, hopefully (the streets on the newer portion of it are all stubs), including a "heritage" greenway trail parallel to the CSX tracks to downtown.

Also, this few blocks of standalone buildings (from Indy Pointe Pkwy to the next street) could totally have a gridded street or two put between one or two of them leading into the future Entertainment District and be that area's "historic" buildings of sorts. They're only 25-45 years old, but by comparison, they were still built with basic street-fronting design, so they could be integrated.

Edited March 29, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[Deleted.]

9 hours ago, Third Strike said:

CATS created a brochure for the Silver Line. I guess they discreetly uploaded the document very recently.

Silver Line Southeast Corridor

I'm pretty sure I read that document back in January, when it was created. I also like that this is one of the few CATS document that seems a bit more official, modern, and neat. 

My preferred route is C-C-A-A-C, then from Stonewall go towards the Airport, though I wouldn't care if the Silver Line (which should be renamed, for consistency, to primary colors, yes I'm that pedantic) goes to Gateway or not.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Piedmont767

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, Piedmont767 said:

 (which should be renamed, for consistency, to primary colors, yes I'm that pedantic)

I agree. I hope they rename it. The Green Line is probably the most viable option.

[ChessieCat]

On 3/27/2016 at 1:29 PM, cltbwimob said:

2) There is an abandoned siding (was used by the Charlotte Observer) next to the NS route that goes behind BofA stadium.  They should be able to use that ROW in downtown then run parallel to the NS route past Charlotte Pipe, cross over the tracks and into a median ROW in Wilkinson.

Good info from the head engineer.  

Question:  after crossing Charlotte Pipe, where would the Airport Line join up with Wilkinson?  

Would the Airport line parrallel NS past Summit/ShealyElectric, then curve right with its own bridge over I-77/Irwin Creek and then into a median ROW in Wilkinson around the old CLT School of Law building?

It's kind of a cluster where Clarkson/Freedom, I-77, Wilkinson, and the NS tracks intersect and all are grade separated.  

Morehead runs under I-77 so a new LRT bridge wouldn't be required, but a major widening would be necessary especially around BofA stadium to accomodate LRT.

Edited March 29, 2016 by ChessieCat

[SgtCampsalot]

"We're here now, guys, so get your s--t together and give us something to work with." -David Howard and Anthony Foxx to their colleagues in Charlotte (in my head)

[kermit]

While this goes under the "too late" to make a difference category Carolyn Flowers (the previous CATS CEO) has been appointed as head of the Federal Transit Administration. Once again, its tragic we did not have a better developed and actionable transit plan in place (IMO).

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/[email protected]&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews04/4/2016

 

[Deleted.]

5 minutes ago, kermit said:

While this goes under the "too late" to make a difference category Carolyn Flowers (the previous CATS CEO) has been appointed as head of the Federal Transit Administration. Once again, its tragic we did not have a better developed and actionable transit plan in place (IMO).

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/people/news/[email protected]&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews04/4/2016

 

Wow! Who would have guessed that the two of the most important transport jobs in the county were from Charlotte!

If Charlotte and CATS can get their s**t together, we may have a chance of getting more funding. 

[tozmervo]

To be clear, we've already gotten more funding than a lot of cities even dream of. The BLE alone is funded by the feds to the tune of a half-billion dollars, and the streetcar is on top of that. I do think CATS/CLT Planning has let themselves fall behind on planning (some of that blame can be placed on their respective governing boards/council), but be careful not to bury their successes 

[cjd5050]

On 3/28/2016 at 5:57 PM, Third Strike said:

CATS created a brochure for the Silver Line. I guess they discreetly uploaded the document very recently.

Silver Line Southeast Corridor

Thanks for posting this.  

Couple of comments.....

Why do they reference the commute time of Union County residents on a CATS plan?  Union County is not going to contribute so why should their commuters be of concern?

For the Silver Line to work, they really need the Town of Matthews to be the focal point rather than CPCC.  That town could evolve to the perfect walkable urban yet suburban community if light rail is connected to the correct location.  

I know it would just be estimates but it would be helpful if they put some numbers out on what each of the transit points have in terms of density and tax revenue today compared to projected transit oriented development.  

 

[SgtCampsalot]

59 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

For the Silver Line to work, they really need the Town of Matthews to be the focal point rather than CPCC.  That town could evolve to the perfect walkable urban yet suburban community if light rail is connected to the correct location.

The Town, from what I understand, is all-in. There may be plenty of families there who think it's a waste, but the town knows the value. Matthews is already one of the only towns in the metro area that literally has all your basic needs served within the downtown area (if you count the farmer's market as a grocer). It's just a matter of whether they want the line to go through downtown (via Matthews-Mint Hill Rd) and risk excessive development, or on the edge of its east end (via Independence Pointe Parkway) and allow that area to become a new district in and of itself.
I'm so proud for what my hometown is becoming *tear*

Edited April 5, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

Why do they reference the commute time of Union County residents on a CATS plan?  Union County is not going to contribute so why should their commuters be of concern?

Because those commuters from the non-contributing county actually do contribute very much to the ridership numbers which plays a big part in determining whether or not the line receives federal funding.  The overwhelming majority of riders on the current blue line are not walk-up riders in Southend but commuters and bus transfers.  Furthermore, because the local transit funding mechanism is based on a sales tax, Union County residents who shop in Mecklenburg County also contribute financially to the transit tax.  Many of those residents are wealthy or upper middle class and have limited options in terms of where they can spend money in Union.  As such, I'd be willing to bet a lot of Union County residents contribute more revenue to the transit tax than many Mecklenburg County residents.

[southslider]

^Just replace Union County with Matthews, and it's still a long corridor to travel any segment in mixed traffic.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Perfect time to run it straight down Indy what with all the construction and all. 

[cjd5050]

23 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

Because those commuters from the non-contributing county actually do contribute very much to the ridership numbers which plays a big part in determining whether or not the line receives federal funding.  The overwhelming majority of riders on the current blue line are not walk-up riders in Southend but commuters and bus transfers.  Furthermore, because the local transit funding mechanism is based on a sales tax, Union County residents who shop in Mecklenburg County also contribute financially to the transit tax.  Many of those residents are wealthy or upper middle class and have limited options in terms of where they can spend money in Union.  As such, I'd be willing to bet a lot of Union County residents contribute more revenue to the transit tax than many Mecklenburg County residents.

Working the ridership numbers makes sense.  I guess I am unclear as to who the brochure is for.  

Also, I am not sure wealthy or upper middle class folks are going to be using mass transit to go shopping in Mecklenburg County.  I see them driving.  But I could see some using mass transit to either commute in for work or for special events.  

As a Mecklenburg county resident I am for mass transit but I'd also like to see a way to have Union County residents pay a bigger contribution than fare and potential taxes.  Maybe build a large parking ramp at the end of the line closest to Union County and sell monthly parking permits priced on where you live?  Just an idea.