CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

4 hours ago, Nick2 said:

According to the article they would have it be stop and go with lights along the monroe rd. pathway? That seems pretty undesirable for speed's sake.

Yeah, that article got that part completely wrong. Any alternative along Monroe Rd would still be exclusive of traffic. Maps at the meetings showed wider line along Monroe Rd, due to having to widen, so as to not operate like streetcar. 

[cjd5050]

On 4/13/2016 at 5:26 PM, Piedmont767 said:

I don't think Raleigh is going to play ball with Charlotte. Maybe Charlotte can 'team-up' with Chapel Hill to try and lobby Raleigh to change the funding law?

Somewhat new to NC.  When you say Raleigh are you saying State Government or the city of Raleigh?  

I get why a rural  / urban divide exists.  It's unfortunate but expected.  But I don't understand why Raleigh, as a city, would not be all in for pushing an urban (development) agenda for both Raleigh and Charlotte.  

[kermit]

"Raleigh" nearly always refers to state government, not the city.

Andy Griffith started it on his TV show.

Edited April 15, 2016 by kermit

[tozmervo]

In deference to Raleighites, I've been trying to make myself say "NCGA" instead, properly placing responsibility.

[Third Strike]

Yeah, Raleigh the city is more screwed than we are, in regards to mass transit. At least we were able to get a 18 mile long light rail line and a three mile long street car line. The Triangle region is now as big, if not bigger, than Charlotte was back in 2007, and yet they won't see any true mass transit until who knows when.

[SgtCampsalot]

59 minutes ago, kermit said:

"Raleigh" nearly always refers to state government, not the city.

Andy Griffith started it on his TV show.

Andy's Trip to Raleigh is blowing my mind right now.

[alb1no panther]

1 hour ago, Third Strike said:

Yeah, Raleigh the city is more screwed than we are, in regards to mass transit. At least we were able to get a 18 mile long light rail line and a three mile long street car line. The Triangle region is now as big, if not bigger, than Charlotte was back in 2007, and yet they won't see any true mass transit until who knows when.

Population density seems to be the culprit here.  Raleigh has 540 and 440, but 540 will probably never wrap around, and 440 is in no way like 277 as far as proximity to and ingress-egress out of the center of Raleigh.  I guess my point is comparing us to Raleigh is like comparing bananas and hula hoops.  We SHOULD have priority, and getting the funds should not be as difficult as it is.

I think Charlotte could do a much better PR job across the state.  Let people know how much money Charlotte brings to the state!  The idea is that hopefully it would trickle up to the people in office.

[southslider]

Durham-Chapel Hill continues to advance their LRT line in design and environmental documentation. As soon as our state government gets off this rural-populist kick, the Triangle is ready to be our state's next New Starts project.

[kermit]

Interesting small grant opportunity for some innovative TOD planning work for Phase II or the Silver line. Lots of opportunities around Brier Creek.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/FTA-20-million-in-grant-funds-available-for-TOD-planning--47960?email=wwgraves@bellsouth.net&utm_medium=email&utm_source=prdailynews&utm_campaign=prdailynews04/15/2016

 

[navigator319]

Charlotte needs to take inspiration...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2016/04/20/denver-airport-train-rail-line/83271302/

[tusculan]

4 hours ago, navigator319 said:

Charlotte needs to take inspiration...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2016/04/20/denver-airport-train-rail-line/83271302/

Denver's Airport Line is 3x the distance between uptown and CLT, and we already have a major freight terminal at the airport - so there would only need to increase the line capacity for about 5/6 miles. Can you imagine how nice it would be to have an exclusive airport line, that would take a little more than 5 minutes? Without the hassle of parking and riding the shuttles? The trains would be full even if you charged $20 each way.

[cltcane]

27 minutes ago, tusculan said:

Denver's Airport Line is 3x the distance between uptown and CLT, and we already have a major freight terminal at the airport - so there would only need to increase the line capacity for about 5/6 miles. Can you imagine how nice it would be to have an exclusive airport line, that would take a little more than 5 minutes? Without the hassle of parking and riding the shuttles? The trains would be full even if you charged $20 each way.

Unless you're coming from or going to Uptown (or another central neighborhood) where a $7 10-minute Uber ride still wins hands down on convenience and total travel time (including walking), especially if you have luggage. There is no way a dedicated airport/transit hub line (like the express trains serving LHR, NRT, HKG, SVO/DME - all high O&D airports far from their respective city centers) would ever be financially feasible or necessary in Charlotte.

[tozmervo]

Denver's airport is as far away from downtown as Mooresville or Rock Hill is from uptown

[RiverwoodCLT]

The rail line to Denver airport was being tested when I was in Denver in March.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, tusculan said:

 The trains would be full even if you charged $20 each way.

Toronto has taken a huge beating on their new (and fast) airport express train which had similar fares (they have recently been slashed). Ridership was less than half what was expected.

IMO the only way an airport train makes sense in Charlotte is for it to be a normal transit route, ideally with stops west of the airport (ideally crossing the river to Belmont).

[cltbwimob]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

Toronto has taken a huge beating on their new (and fast) airport express train which had similar fares (they have recently been slashed). Ridership was less than half what was expected.

IMO the only way an airport train makes sense in Charlotte is for it to be a normal transit route, ideally with stops west of the airport (ideally crossing the river to Belmont).

This is true.  A two stop airport-downtown train that essentially amounts to a shuttle service will be an abject failure.  An extension of the Silver Line with about 10 stops-perhaps 12 if traveling west of the airport-is needed. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by cltbwimob

[tusculan]

Sorry. I should have been more precise. I think this service would be easy to add. I think, however, it would be extremely foolish to build this as a single use line. But, given that the route from uptown to the airport exists along one of the central transit axes, it should be easy to build the line with however many stops, which is what most people would use it for. But I do think adding it as a distinct service that runs once an hour could be feasible for people who live uptown, or during certain parts of the day, the Blue Line Extension or Silver Line.

I think here that the transit option matters, of course. Building a streetcar out to the airport won't allow for different service types, and I think would make the trip to the airport quite a bit longer than going by taxi/uber. I think an independent service might only work with light rail. Alternatively, if the airport/485 was simply the first stop on a gaston county commuter line, that could also work and obviate the need for a kind of express shuttle.

[southslider]

There already exists non-stop service every 30 minutes everyday between Woodlawn LYNX station and the Airport. And with Sprinter, there already exists limited-stop service every 20-30 minutes everyday to Uptown. But both of these services use CATS buses.

The only hope for high-frequency rail to the Airport is either a continuation of Silver Line west of Uptown or a new crosstown corridor from South Park. Basically, Airport to Uptown (or Woodlawn) alone is too weak of a Corridor to secure a high enough rating for Federal funding.

[HopHead]

Does anyone have ridership statistics on other metros that have rail from their airport to downtown? Particular cities that would be considered more peer to Charlotte in terms of size like Minneapolis, Portland, Salt Lake City, etc. ? 

[kermit]

^

SLC:

"FWIW, Salt Lake City has a very similar airport in terms of OD numbers and hub status (they have slightly less OD than we do) and its a similar distance from downtown. Their airport rail station sees around 1,400 boardings per day." [from this thread back in mid November]

Portland:

a quick look for PDX data found this document      https://trimet.org/pdfs/history/railfactsheetairport.pdf

which reports 3200 "get on or off the max" at PDX station per day day (so 1600 boardings I think).  This interesting history was also included in the same document:

"A unique public/private partnership
In 1997 Bechtel Enterprises approached the region with a proposal to design and build a MAX extension to the airport under an innovative public/private partnership. Bechtel would contribute about a quarter of the project’s funding and contract to build the light rail extension. In return, Bechtel would receive development rights to a 120-acre mixed-use commercial site near the entrance to the airport, owned by the Port of Portland.
This cost-sharing venture, the first of its kind, meant no federal appropriations, state general funds or additional property taxes were needed to build the line. ".

[the line opened on Sept 10 2001 so Bechtel never made any money on the development, due to recession and reduced airport trffic. They sold their interest and the development is now doing well]

Minneapolis:

MSP light rail is a different animal since the light rail system is the main mode of connection between the two terminals. This internal airport function inflates ridership stats making MSP a flawed comparison.

Edited April 21, 2016 by kermit

[alb1no panther]

Yeah too many other options.  And the route in and out of the city to the airport is very easy.  Fares would have to be equal to that of Uber/Sprinter, otherwise service would have to be extremely consistent [the one redeeming value other services can't match] for me to pay $20.  The only way I could see the dominoes really start to fall on such a bad project is if River District development [e.g., hotels, conference centers, etc] start to pull revenues away from Center City and Uptown generally.  The optimist in me hopes an extension down to the airport is incorporated into the existing track line sooner than that, though. 

[kermit]

It seems like we (as a group) have developed the notion that there is nothing on the West side that needs to be served by transit other than the airport. I really don't think that is an accurate assumption. Ashely Park and Westerly Hills are not nothing (they also have tons of opportunity for infill) and the land between Wilkinson and the NS tracks is ripe for redevelopment. Combining these trip generators with a potential "industrial Ballantyne at CLT," a 485 park and ride (perhaps combined with some new satellite parking for CLT), and an idealistic extension into Belmont this would likely be a busy and transformative addition to the network.

Our discounting of the potential of the west line just feels weird to me. We love discussing how LRT can change land use patterns (and actually did change land use in Southend) but that discussion never seems to carry over to the west side.

Edited April 21, 2016 by kermit

[tozmervo]

I don't think anybody is discounting it - I (for one) just don't give it much priority over other rapid transit needs. You're absolutely correct about the existing population along Wilkinson, in fact I would wager good money the Sprinter carries far more non-airport traffic than people going to CLT. 

One other critical part of an airport connection would be the people mover at the airport itself. There's long been plans for a mover that would loop around from the terminal to the parking decks, including a connection to a transit station. That element would be necessary to get people from the terminal to the transit station itself. 

[videtur quam contuor]

I have taken the airport Sprinter just once but my impression was that it served as a connection for airport employees more than travelers. Work clothing and non travel footwear were identifiers. (small sample size applies)

[cltcane]

10 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I don't think anybody is discounting it - I (for one) just don't give it much priority over other rapid transit needs. You're absolutely correct about the existing population along Wilkinson, in fact I would wager good money the Sprinter carries far more non-airport traffic than people going to CLT. 

One other critical part of an airport connection would be the people mover at the airport itself. There's long been plans for a mover that would loop around from the terminal to the parking decks, including a connection to a transit station. That element would be necessary to get people from the terminal to the transit station itself. 

Granted this is a very limited sample, but I've taken the Sprinter a handful of times when I wasn't in a hurry just for the experience, and each time I was one of the only passengers (if not the only one) coming from or going to the airport.  There never seem to be many people waiting at the CLT Sprinter stop, and those who are are mostly airport employees.  I do think fixed-rail service would boost CATS ridership to the airport (there is still an unfortunate stigma that buses, even specially-marketed, limited-stop ones, are for poor, non-white people -  I was also one of VERY few white people on the Sprinter the times I've taken it), but as long as private transportation to and parking at the airport are cheap, a large majority of flyers are going to chose taking an Uber/taxi or driving instead of using public transit.  In my opinion, the real value of a westward expansion of the Silver Line is providing additional connectivity to/from westside neighborhoods and spurring (re)development along a largely ignored corridor that has a lot of potential.