CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

along with unpredictable pedestrians and bikes weather remains a serious thorn in the side of autonomous vehicles. Imagine a world where no one can get to work because of rain (or fog or snow or locousts or ....)

[AuLukey]

3 hours ago, southslider said:

The only thing I can think of is that automated cars must travel slower on streets to still be able to brake quickly. And if automated cars do travel slower, then it could end up being a good change for livable cities.

Howso?  Automated cars are significantly more predictive and reactive than humans on the road.  Why else would more and more cars be coming with braking assist and collision deterrence as standard features these days?  Simply because they can react quicker than we can.  If anything I'd imagine cars could go faster if they were all automated.  Then again, automated cars actually obey the speed limit.

[ah59396]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

along with unpredictable pedestrians and bikes weather remains a serious thorn in the side of autonomous vehicles. Imagine a world where no one can get to work because of rain (or fog or snow or locousts or ....)

I have a feeling that the folks sinking billions of dollars in the auto, tech and robotics industries are probably working on these issues as we speak.  Whether you agree or not, this tech is coming, quickly.  And Google, Apple, Uber, Tesla, Ford, GMC, ect ect ect are all trying to be the first one across that finish line.  That's a lot of fire power.

[Matthew.Brendan]

We are trying to shoe horn new tech (autonomous cars) into an old infrastructure conduit (a simple "dumb" paved surface). Once the conduit itself gets upgraded with sensors and such then we will see real improvements in traffic 'flow'. Basically a physical manifestation of (tcp/ip) packet routing and switching. 

[kermit]

46 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

I have a feeling that the folks sinking billions of dollars in the auto, tech and robotics industries are probably working on these issues as we speak.  Whether you agree or not, this tech is coming, quickly.  And Google, Apple, Uber, Tesla, Ford, GMC, ect ect ect are all trying to be the first one across that finish line.  That's a lot of fire power.

nah, I don't disagree - lots of stuff is happening and tremendous progress is being made. But I do think we are much further from totally autonomous vehicles (except in very circumscribed conditions) than most of the discourse suggests.

[Spartan]

No matter how efficiently they travel, there is still only so much space on the road, and a single occupant vehicle takes up a ton of room. It may be able to effectively "reduce congestion" for some period of time, but if everyone still takes a car to get where they're going then there will still be issues with travel time. Its absolutely true that the shift will take several generations. Not everyone will want an automated car. I'm personally on the fence about the idea assuming its affordable.

Automated cars will probably dramatically affect urban development in two ways: 1) The "necessity" of easy/convenient parking goes away and walkability will be key to creating successful cities. If you have an automated car, you can be dropped off at the front door of your destination and the car can park itself and pick you up later. Therefore you don't need large parking fields and suburbia can be more easily reshaped. 2) Parking will probably become an even bigger issue, but in different ways. "Smart parking decks" will be important. You can probably cram more cars into less space if you don't have to worry about people getting in an out of their cars. 3) Cost is still a factor. You'll still have to pay for storage in cities, and I"m sure there will be software companies or even auto manufacturers that will try to monetize software upgrades. The cost to own one of these things will be different, but it will still exist.

Transit, meanwhile, will still be the same. If anything, it will benefit from a similarly automated process which would reduce the cost to operate it. The cost to use transit will be comparably less than vehicle ownership, and it will still lead to high density walkable places.

[kermit]

Charlotte did not make the shortlist for the Smart Cities Challenge Grant from USDOT. Not a huge surprise, I'll try not to harp more about our lack of transit vision.

 

[Deleted.]

30 minutes ago, kermit said:

Charlotte did not make the shortlist for the Smart Cities Challenge Grant from USDOT. Not a huge surprise, I'll try not to harp more about our lack of transit vision.

 

We really need a clear transit vision that we can all get onboard with (pun intended), a transit plan that we can execute quickly. All of those cities have well-developed transit systems with clear transit plans. We are falling behind.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Can you hear us NCDOT?  We are falling behind on our transit. By 2023 or 2015 Charlotte will have move 1 million people in its city limits. $500,000 is a drop in the bucket for what Charlotte needs to complete it rail Transit build out.  It has take 28 years to build 8 miles on US74 east in Charlotte, That's Independence Blvd. in case you do not know.  Out interstate highways are a joke once you get out of Charlotte.

GA Keep you hands off our airport, just go down to the beach and get a sun tan.  That about the only thing you can do right. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by RiverwoodCLT

[Matthew.Brendan]

Denver Light Rail for instance has 4 new lines totaling something like ~50 miles of new track (doubling the existing amount) coming online this year. Yeah. 

[LKN704]

I am in Portland, OR right now visiting some friends and all I can say is oh my god. Oh my god. The transit access here is incredible. Commuter Rail. Street car. Light rail. Bike paths. It's like transit porn....all for a city that is significantly smaller than Charlotte population wise. It's really refreshing to not have to drive in such a small city, and to see everyone in the community coming together to use transit.

Oh, everyone here knows Charlotte too simply because of our hub. They love the nonstop flight...love that they no longer have to go to NYC or Atlanta when connecting in the East coast.

[Spartan]

^Metro populations are similar though. Portland is much denser and they've been investing in transit since the 1970s. Give Charlotte 40 years and we might be where they are today. This is, of course, assuming we are somehow able to elect a less close-minded, regressive legislature. The next census is only 4 years away!

[nmundo]

http://www.charlottestories.com/charlottes-light-rail-extension-to-university-city-is-almost-finished/

 

This article has some pretty good photos. Though I'm assuming they messed up when they said it'd be done in 9 months since last I heard it was august next year correct?

[Deleted.]

47 minutes ago, nmundo said:

http://www.charlottestories.com/charlottes-light-rail-extension-to-university-city-is-almost-finished/

 

This article has some pretty good photos. Though I'm assuming they messed up when they said it'd be done in 9 months since last I heard it was august next year correct?

Could they mean finish construction in 9 months? Because testing takes a long time. 

[southslider]

Blue Line opened 2007. Gold Line opened 2015. BLE opens 2017. Gold Line-2 should open 2019. The only other hope for a major project in the next five years, using known funding, is BRT to Lake Norman.

[SgtCampsalot]

Well, there's also Gold Line Phase 3. Though I'd expect there to be overlap issues, from what I hear there doesn't seem to be a rivalry for the funds since Gold line is city-funded, and anything Red line is county-funded.

Edited March 18, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[tozmervo]

7 hours ago, nmundo said:

http://www.charlottestories.com/charlottes-light-rail-extension-to-university-city-is-almost-finished/

 

This article has some pretty good photos. Though I'm assuming they messed up when they said it'd be done in 9 months since last I heard it was august next year correct?

I think he heard "2017" and assumed that meant "January 1, 2017." 

[southslider]

^There will be months of testing.

[LKN704]

11 hours ago, southslider said:

Blue Line opened 2007. Gold Line opened 2015. BLE opens 2017. Gold Line-2 should open 2019. The only other hope for a major project in the next five years, using known funding, is BRT to Lake Norman.

I disagree. I think the next project that will be looked at is the Silver Line. It seems that LRT for that corridor is actively being discussed as opposed to any transit to Lake Norman.

[kermit]

Phase III of the streetcar is only an ephemeral line on a map, there has been no design work, engineering or plan for funding developed. You could argue that the Silver Line is further along in the planning process than Phase III.

I suspect that BRT light to Davidson will be next with Silver Line work progressing steadily. Somewhat ironically their is a glimmer of hope for Red Line rail. Canadian Pacific is working hard to acquire Norfolk Southern. If it happens it will be very complicated from a regulatory perspective and they will need all the political help they can get. If the NC congressional delegation is paying attention (and is willing to help with a public transit project -- this seems unlikely) they could -easily- get CP to agree to provide access to the line in return for their support of the merger agreement.  This kind of arrangement is fairly common in situations like this.

(the same arrangement could potentially be used for commuter rail to Gastonia / Kings Mountain although there would be more resistance on this line)

Edited March 19, 2016 by kermit

[Third Strike]

26 minutes ago, kermit said:

Phase III of the streetcar is only an epherimal line on a map, there has been no design work, engineering or plan for funding developed. 

I suspect that BRT light to Davidson will be next with Silver Line work progressing steadily. Somewhat ironically their is a glimmer of hope for Red Line rail. Canadian Pacific is working hard to acquire Norfolk Southern. If it happens it will be very complicated from a regulatory perspective, so if NC's congressional delegation is paying attention they could -easily- have access to the line granted as a condition of the merger agreement.  This kind of arrangement is fairly common in situations like this.

(the same arrangement could potentially be used for commuter rail to Gastonia / Kings Mountain)

I'v always heard that Norfolk Southern was more friendly towards commuter rail on their tracks, than CSX is. However, where does Canadian Pacific stand on passenger rail? If an agreement isn't created pre-merger, I wonder if CP would take another look at allowing CATS to use the O-Line for the Red Line. Wishful thinking, but maybe they would be open to selling the line to either CATS or the NCDOT, since it seems like most of their traffic is on the NC Railroad. It would also be nice if they allowed Amtrak to open a new line from Charlotte, to Winston-Salem, and then to Roanoke. That could also tie in to Virginia's tentative plan to open a new intercity line between Bristol to D.C., the Trans Dominion Express.

If none of that happens, and it's business as usual, then maybe the NCDOT should work towards adding a second line that would run parallel with the current track. My understanding that the issue with a second line is that several roads would have to be realigned for extra ROW, as well as new bridges. This seems like something Mecklenburg, Iredell, and the state could slowly work towards in the coming years. I think Iredell would be up to it, especially after the I-77 debacle. If not, then just limit the project to just Mecklenburg. 

[kermit]

15 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I'v always heard that Norfolk Southern was more friendly towards commuter rail on their tracks, than CSX is. However, where does Canadian Pacific stand on passenger rail? If an agreement isn't created pre-merger, I wonder if CP would take another look at allowing CATS to use the O-Line for the Red Line. Wishful thinking, but maybe they would be open to selling the line to either CATS or the NCDOT, since it seems like most of their traffic is on the NC Railroad. It would also be nice if they allowed Amtrak to open a new line from Charlotte, to Winston-Salem, and then to Roanoke. That could also tie in to Virginia's tentative plan to open a new intercity line between Bristol to D.C., the Trans Dominion Express.

 

A CP-NS acquisition is still a long shot, but CP is really working hard to make it happen. CP is kinda indifferent to pax rail, they don't own a ton of tracks that are used for pax service in the US other than between Chicago and Milwaukee where they inherited existing agreements. What CP does have a reputation for is shedding any assets that are not -very- productive, so they would be much more likely than NS to sell the O-line tracks that the Red Line would run on (in addition to making just about any agreement for shared use before the acquisition is finalized).

Winston-Salem to Charlotte service via the O-Line is a pipe dream under any ownership scenario. The tracks north of Barber Junction are out of service and some very expensive bridge work would need to be done in Winston before the rails can be reactivated. In addition, the tracks actually run through the Haines Mall parking lot, so there would be some substantial political pushback to reactivating them. A better route between WS and CLT is to use the WS Southbound tracks which are straight and well kept between Winston and Lexington. Some work would be needed to improve the junction between the WSSB and the NCRR but it would be much cheaper than any WS improvements to the O-Line.

Winston to Roanoke service is tantalizing, but the tracks north of Winston are curvy and SLOW so the route would always be significantly slower to the NE corridor than whatever form of SEHSR we will see in the future.   I do think our best bet for NC urban development is a robust network of commuter-like service connecting CLT-WS-Gboro-Durham-Raleigh (and ideally Columbia via Charlotte and Wilmington via Raleigh and Goldsboro) combined with 8 (or so) daily fast trains to DC and points north. After that not much else makes sense until Atlanta becomes part of the equation.

[Third Strike]

Good information, Kermit. I hope CP does acquire NS, especially if it means a revived Red Line. Though, in regards to future expansion to the north end of the Red Line, would it be feasible to rebuild the railroad line that used to run in between Mooresville and Statesville? It seems like a good link to have, especially since the state has plans for a Asheville/Salisbury line, and Statesville is one of the stations along this line. If someone wanted to travel to Asheville from Charlotte via train, it seems like the quickest route there. It also looks like the original ROW is still mostly in tact, save for a rail trail in Troutman.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, Third Strike said:

in regards to future expansion to the north end of the Red Line, would it be feasible to rebuild the railroad line that used to run in between Mooresville and Statesville? It seems like a good link to have, especially since the state has plans for a Asheville/Salisbury line, and Statesville is one of the stations along this line. If someone wanted to travel to Asheville from Charlotte via train, it seems like the quickest route there. It also looks like the original ROW is still mostly in tact, save for a rail trail in Troutman.

Your guess is as good as mine about the track through Troutman. Getting rid of the rail trail might be possible if Troutman had a stop, but I think there has been construction in the old ROW like this church parking lot. The bigger issue is Iredell still shows absolutely no interest in getting rail connections to Charlotte. The recurring theme is that there is lots that could happen, but when you think about allocating _very_ limited resources to rail there are only a few decent alternatives (like CLT-AVL via Salisbury).

Edited March 20, 2016 by kermit

[SgtCampsalot]

After go ogling "Canadian pacific Norfolk southern" news stories, it makes me wonder how likely this mega merger really is. Only time will tell...