CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

Some tidbits from the September FTA Quarterly report from CATS:

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/Documents/FTA Quarterly/FTA-Quarterly-Agenda-150924.pdf#search=fta quarterly

Total system ridership was down 7% yoy – gas prices were blamed. Gold Line had 44,747 riders in August (1,491 per day). Blue Line ridership was down 14+% yoy, but that was attributed to three weekend shutdowns this August.

BLE Construction:

Projected revenue service date for the BLE is still August 15, 2017 (page 26). Budget is still well within the allocated contingency. Completion concerns are focused on the Harris blvd bridge, Craighead bridge and 36^th street overpass (scheduled for completion in February). Station work is already underway at Parkwood and 25^th st.

Blue Line Capacity Expansion:

Scheduled completion 12/15/15.  Appears to be on budget. As an aside, I believe that the streetcar starter project, the Blue Line Capacity enhancement project and the BLE (to date) are all within budget – this may mean that its time to retire the tired RWNJ talking point that rail transit projects are 'always' over budget. Hats off to CATS and their project managers (and a nod goes to stable commodity prices as well).

TOD:

BLE is credited with $348 million of projects currently underway (most in NoDa) (page 96)

Gold Line Phase 1 and 2 is credited with $332 million worth of projects (Skyhouse 1 and 2 make up $126 million of that figure). (page 98)

These are impressive numbers, but the inclusion of some of these projects in the TOD list is sometimes unrealistic (IMO). This is particularly true when every uptown building project gets credited to the Gold Line.

Silver Line:

Corridor Transit Study is due to be complete in June 2016. The plan specifies that it will be a “fixed rail guideway” The study will also identify an interim transit strategy using the managed lanes on Independence. The draft of rail alternatives should be released this fall.

Gateway Station:

Its just a hodgepodge of efforts to get small chunks of funding from various federal and state [good luck!] sources. Nothing other than the funding scramble was discussed.

Gold Line Phase 2:

“CATS plans to make the final request for an SSGA in mid-late October 2015.” Construction start scheduled for August 2016, revenue service begins December 2019.

Edit: the Red Line was not mentioned anywhere in the report.

Edited October 1, 2015 by kermit

[rugger62]

Anyone see this article ranking transit systems Nationwide? http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-your-citys-public-transit-stacks-up/?ex_cid=538fb 

The only ranking they used was rides per Capita. I added a few more 'rankings' to try and see how we stack up against other MSAs. The only glaring omission IMO is MSA area & population density - I imagine that the density is a much better tool of analysis that pure population.

Long story short, without more in-depth analysis from a transportation expert, I think we are doing an above-average job in terms of transit, but getting close to the point where it is going to have to become a more central facet of planning and budgeting.

Book1.xlsx

[tozmervo]

What do you want in your Silver Line...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SilverLineFeedback

[DEnd]

What do you want in your Silver Line...

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SilverLineFeedback

I want it to reach Shelby. 

[tozmervo]

I want it to reach Shelby. 

They've got a comments and suggestions box

[DEnd]

They've got a comments and suggestions box

That suggestion would do zero good for the project.  The best hope Cleveland county (and Gastonia) have for commuter service to Charlotte is piggybacking on the SEHSR project, which is basically dead for the moment.

[15895]

If I had my way, the only transit center uptown would be for Express busses and busses connecting community transit center to uptown. 

 

The current CTC would be demolished, rebuilt 1/3 the size focused on commuters whose beginning or final destination is uptown. Connecting passengers would be relegated to the community shuttle hubs (Primarily South Park, Rosa Parks, Eastfield)

 

I'm aggravated with all the congregation that goes on there

[southslider]

The County is planning to distribute social services around Charlotte, none of them in Uptown. Similarly, CATS could look to create satellite transit hubs, completing the ring started with Rosa Parks and Eastland.  Within that ring, at least one South hub and one Northeast hub should be directly on the Blue Line, say Archdale or Arrowood, and Sugar Creek or Old Concord.

If express routes went to an Uptown hub, like Gateway, then Express bus riders would need to walk more within Uptown. While I don't see a problem with that, I can see Express riders disliking losing their convenient stops closer to work. Besides, the Blue Line makes multiple stops within Uptown, not just one hub.

[tozmervo]

I should point out that express buses already don't stop at the CTC, other than as another bus stop. They loop through uptown picking up/debarking passengers. Are you suggested buses be banned from going through Uptown entirely and relegated to theses exterior stations?

[kermit]

Would it be possible to run every bus into uptown on a loop route that every inbound bus follows (9th, Graham, MLK, Davidson?). This might have the potential of delivering folks closer to their destinations and give us a very high frequency circulator service around uptown as a bonus? 

I guess the cons are 1) schedules, 2) shelter for transfers 3) traffic, 4) air quality and 5) the buses need to park somewhere so the driver can take a break. (Maybe I see why we dont do this)

 

[southslider]

I should point out that express buses already don't stop at the CTC, other than as another bus stop. They loop through uptown picking up/debarking passengers. Are you suggested buses be banned from going through Uptown entirely and relegated to theses exterior stations?

Not at all suggesting that. Express riders are actually traveling to/from Uptown. Local riders mostly connect Uptown. The latter group could realize travel time savings by connecting outside of Uptown.

Edited October 22, 2015 by southslider

[uptownliving]

So once again CATS didn't make the cut for the TIGER grant money to get a modern fare collection system installed.

[15895]

So just a tidbit from the Gateway Station discussion from the Charlotte Observer:

 

A key part of the Gateway Station plan is to house the last stop on a commuter train to Lake Norman, the Red Line.

But that project has two hurdles. The first is that the city doesn’t have the roughly $500 million needed to pay for the Red Line.

The second is that the plan calls for the train to use the freight-rail tracks owned by Norfolk Southern. The freight railroad has so far refused the city’s offer to share its tracks.

Foxx said he has offered to bring the city, state and Norfolk Southern together to find a solution. He also said the federal government could expedite permits needed to build the station.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article41835936.html#storylink=cpy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder how Foxx could mediate between the parties (city, state and NS). And even if he did mediate a deal. That 500 Million price tag is still a doozy. But I wonder... Will the Red line really cost 500 Million even with the Gateway track work being done? Does that reduce the cost of the redline?

I wonder if the state would offer a chunk of change because of the controversial toll lane on 77? It'd be nice if Foxx can make the red line work during his reign as Secretary of Transportation.

 

I love Foxx....

Edited November 1, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[ChessieCat]

So just a tidbit from the Gateway Station discussion from the Charlotte Observer:

I wonder how Foxx could mediate between the parties (city, state and NS). And even if he did mediate a deal. That 500 Million price tag is still a doozy. But I wonder... Will the Red line really cost 500 Million even with the Gateway track work being done? Does that reduce the cost of the redline?

I wonder if the state would offer a chunk of change because of the controversial toll lane on 77? It'd be nice if Foxx can make the red line work during his reign as Secretary of Transportation.

I love Foxx....

The big elephant in the room is the NCRR, which NS leases but does not own.  If NS loses trackage rights to the NCRR in the future, the "O" line is its only artery to ship freight north out of Charlotte via Winston-Salem and Greensboro onward to Virginia and the Eastern Seabord.

That's why NS is playing hardball.  If the Red Line is going to happen, NCDOT will have to:

1) Complete the CSX grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM)

2) Double-track the "O" line up to Davidson so NS can still ship freight without interruptions in case it loses NCRR trackage rights in the future

3) #1 and #2 will cost hundreds of millions

[Deleted.]

So once again CATS didn't make the cut for the TIGER grant money to get a modern fare collection system installed.

We will probably need a modern fare system once Phase 2 of the streetcar is in operation, if we chose the method of purchasing a ticket and touching in. Otherwise we will still use Proof of Purchase, which doesn't seem efficient. 

[SgtCampsalot]

Many may already know this. But I finally found a document that says the ACWR line (that spurs off to the east through NoDa) will/should be relocated more to the north to reconnect back up with the line by Sugar Creek Rd. The one NoDa was wanting to turn into a greenway.

On page 27 and 28

This may have been posted long ago, but I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anyone. A CATS head engineer told me it was "a pipe dream", and a Cross-Charlotte-Trail rep told me it was "inevitable, but with no time frame whatsoever," but when they do, they'll use it to create an eastern leg of the XCLT Trail.

So... eventually.

Edited November 9, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[tusculan]

The big elephant in the room is the NCRR, which NS leases but does not own.  If NS loses trackage rights to the NCRR in the future, the "O" line is its only artery to ship freight north out of Charlotte via Winston-Salem and Greensboro onward to Virginia and the Eastern Seabord.

That's why NS is playing hardball.  If the Red Line is going to happen, NCDOT will have to:

1) Complete the CSX grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM)

2) Double-track the "O" line up to Davidson so NS can still ship freight without interruptions in case it loses NCRR trackage rights in the future

3) #1 and #2 will cost hundreds of millions

I think one of the major problems in our transit future is that we have lost a vision for the future. Case in point, the Old Norfolk Southern line between Gastonia and Conover. Norfolk Southern has kept the O line, precisely because it needs one redundant line for the NCRR. So in the 70s and 80s, due to taxes, it shuttered the line 30 miles to the West, as it was financially responsible to do so - who needs two redundant lines. Not NS, but the people of North Carolina need the double redundancy. I really think that we have made awful decisions in terms of taxation of the Railroads and in the willingness to carve up their former ROWs into trails. While its very nice to have urban greenways, those are much more easily constructed than a new rail line through the heart of a town.

Realistically, I think there are only two alternatives. Either there is alternative link to the O line that the state helps to secure for NS, or there is another route that is identified by the state for the Commuter line. I don't think double tracking the O line is a viable alternative through Davidson, Cornelius, and Huntersville.

[tusculan]

Realistically, I think there are only two alternatives. Either there is alternative link to the O line that the state helps to secure for NS, or there is another route that is identified by the state for the Commuter line. I don't think double tracking the O line is a viable alternative through Davidson, Cornelius, and Huntersville.

Actually, there could be a third alternative. The city, or perhaps the state, to purchase the O line, and in return the state build a dedicated NS line as a new track parallel to the existing NCRR as far as Salisbury where the connection for NS to Winston-Salem could be rejoined. 

From Charlotte to Salisbury a portion of this line is already double tracked. I think increasing it to three for its whole length (one NS owned, two full NCRR for both freight and commuter usage to Kannapolis, Concord, and Salisbury) I would favor this over giving the NS the second partial NCRR track for the simple reason that although far more costly, the state shouldn't be locked in to owning only one line between its major cities.

[kermit]

I think one of the major problems in our transit future is that we have lost a vision for the future. Case in point, the Old Norfolk Southern line between Gastonia and Conover. Norfolk Southern has kept the O line, precisely because it needs one redundant line for the NCRR. So in the 70s and 80s, due to taxes, it shuttered the line 30 miles to the West, as it was financially responsible to do so - who needs two redundant lines. Not NS, but the people of North Carolina need the double redundancy. I really think that we have made awful decisions in terms of taxation of the Railroads and in the willingness to carve up their former ROWs into trails. While its very nice to have urban greenways, those are much more easily constructed than a new rail line through the heart of a town.

Realistically, I think there are only two alternatives. Either there is alternative link to the O line that the state helps to secure for NS, or there is another route that is identified by the state for the Commuter line. I don't think double tracking the O line is a viable alternative through Davidson, Cornelius, and Huntersville.

You are 100% correct, too many lines were abandoned in the Piedmont.

A freight bypass route for the O Line is the Terrell Subdivision which connects the NS Asheville district in Catawba to CSX and the P&N in Mt Holly. The line is currently owned by CSX (I believe) and NS has trackage rights, but CSX recently lost the contract to haul coal to the Marshall Steam station. It is not unimaginable to have NS acquire the line which would be a near perfect substitute to the O-Line for connecting their North South traffic without the NCRR.

Having said that, NS doesn't really want to ever use any alternative freight route through NC, they just want to continue to use the NCRR as cheaply as possible. The O-Line is simply being used as a stalking horse.  

Actually, there could be a third alternative. The city, or perhaps the state, to purchase the O line, and in return the state build a dedicated NS line as a new track parallel to the existing NCRR as far as Salisbury where the connection for NS to Winston-Salem could be rejoined. 

From Charlotte to Salisbury a portion of this line is already double tracked. I think increasing it to three for its whole length (one NS owned, two full NCRR for both freight and commuter usage to Kannapolis, Concord, and Salisbury) I would favor this over giving the NS the second partial NCRR track for the simple reason that although far more costly, the state shouldn't be locked in to owning only one line between its major cities.

Yes, this.

Since the NCRR is 200 ft wide (enough for 8 tracks) there is plenty of room for an additional track. The only downside is that NS will need access to sidings  on both sides of the line. 

Edited November 10, 2015 by kermit

[tusculan]

 

Since the NCRR is 200 ft wide (enough for 8 tracks) there is plenty of room for an additional track. The only downside is that NS will need access to sidings  on both sides of the line. 

I presume that there would be junctions pretty regularly for these lines, since NS would continue to use the NCRR north of Salisbury, but also as needed, south to Charlotte. I can't imagine that this would be that difficult to do - Have NS own one outside track, and be able to rent the other as needed. And allow passenger traffic in the median. I think that problem is basically that the state doesn't value the O line enough to give up one of its slots to NS on the NCRR route. But that is pretty ridiculous (the need for 8 tracks for that distance). Besides, the traffic lost on the NCRR from Salisbury to Charlotte switching to the dedicated NS line would eventually be made up for extra commuter traffic.

Wouldn't this be the most cost effective plan, as it would only require the building of 40 miles of infrastructure, but with no new ROW purchases, and the end result be two Charlotte commuter line possibilities? 

[southslider]

There may be a legal loophole-- contract with Amtrak to add trips that provide commuter-like service to Gastonia and/or Concord/Kannapolis. By law, freight railroads must share their tracks with Amtrak.

[LKN704]

^^^^Bingo.

A lot of commuter railroads got their start through an Amtrak contract. Most of Metrolink's lines were operated by Amtrak using Metrolink equipment in the 1990s and early 2000s. I believe Coaster in San Diego was also operated by Amtrak at one point. Amtrak operates the Shore Line East in conjunction with CT DOT, along with MARC in conjunction with MD Transit.

CATS could purchase the railcars and Amtrak would operate it with their personnel.

[kermit]

There may be a legal loophole-- contract with Amtrak to add trips that provide commuter-like service to Gastonia and/or Concord/Kannapolis. By law, freight railroads must share their tracks with Amtrak.

I believe the law was that freight railroads are obligated to share their tracks only for passenger service that was being operated in the regulated (pre-Amtrak) era of passenger rail (there is a specific date they use in 1971 to baseline this service). Since there was no service on (what is now) the Norfolk Southern mainline from Charlotte to Gastonia in 1971 other than the Crescent,  Norfolk Southern is not obligated to allow Amtrak to operate anything other than the Crescent.

its a slightly different story to Concord and Kannapolis since NS only leases fright rights to those tracks from the NCRR. The NCRR / NCDOT can run as much passenger service as they want on that route, as long as it does not interfere with NS's ability to move freight. The double tracking  (its almost finished) will add capacity for -LOTS- more passenger trains than are currently planned.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

I believe the law was that freight railroads are obligated to share their tracks only for passenger service that was being operated in the regulated (pre-Amtrak) era of passenger rail (there is a specific date they use in 1971 to baseline this service). Since there was no service on (what is now) the Norfolk Southern mainline from Charlotte to Gastonia in 1971 other than the Crescent,  Norfolk Southern is not obligated to allow Amtrak to operate anything other than the Crescent.

its a slightly different story to Concord and Kannapolis since NS only leases fright rights to those tracks from the NCRR. The NCRR / NCDOT can run as much passenger service as they want on that route, as long as it does not interfere with NS's ability to move freight. The double traking  (its almost finished) will add capacity for -LOTS- more passenger trains than are currently planned.

I think it's actually the law that they have to allow Amtrak trains to use their tracks period, regardless of whether or not the service preexisted prior to 1971.  However, just because Amtrak trains can use the rails doesn't mean that they get to operate the schedule that fits them best.  The freight railroads still have priority of use for their trains over the Amtrak trains.  I was on a train one time coming out of Washington, and the trip between DC and Richmond was painfully slow because CSX had so many freight movements at the time that our train spent most of the trip slogging along at 20 mph or less.  There were also many times we had to stop to make way for freight trains.

[kermit]

^ you are (as usual) correct. Amtrak's right of access is independent of service levels on A-day. (Ignore my post above)

https://www.regonline.com/custImages/310000/310858/Presentations/Vilter.pdf

although the same presentation also says that Amtrak trains get schedule priority over freight. Anyone who has ridden Amtrak knows this is not the case.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit