CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kayman]

CATS already does have access to the automatic card readers, which is a form of automated passenger counter (APC), on the City LYNX Gold Line vehicles, so the technology is available for regional fare cards.  However, there is work tied to the Connect Beyond implementation efforts to roll out the regional fare cards with a single branding similar to other major tier 1 transit (possessing regional rail transit) regions across the US. The problem is not Gaston nor Cabarrus counties rather Iredell and Union, who refuse to assist in the efforts to get this effort rolled out faster.  CATS would go alone on this and already roll this out, but the asininity of Iredell and Union is holding this up.  Both counties are already too big to only have on-demand transportation services when the corridors from Mooresville, Lake Norman, and Troutman as well as the areas of Stallings, Indian Trail to Monroe are both heavily developed areas that support fixed route bus or circular shuttle bus services.  CATS has been open to doing regional fare cards along with subsidizing transit to those areas with the town and municipalities assistance, but both counties have been blocking the towns and municipalities from doing it alone.   

Eventually, York and Lancaster counties riders will be able to use that My Ride transit or CATS local or express buses would be able to do join the regional fare card as  well.

There are federal transit funds that could be matched to get more off the ground in those areas.  This is where a public transit authority might have more ability to reach out to win over the town and municipal counties to encourage them to go it alone without their respective county commissions to provide local funding matches operate more public transit in their respective areas. 

The foolishness behind this is federal transit funds does lapse after 5 years that was allocated to the Charlotte urban area, but these two counties' commissioners are more worried about building more unnecessary roads when you can get more transit built in the areas within their county boundaries that are already eligible for federal transit funding.  NC law does allow towns, cities, or other municipalities to fund their own public transportation, but tends to give the counties first dibs on those federal public transportation funding dollars.

 

Edited January 10 by kayman

[elrodvt]

It would be interesting though if state agencies would be given access to Uber and the likes data in order to hone their bus routes? I assume they don't have that and it would require legislation which is not possible in NC to compel it? It would make an interesting study to determine how close and often a route would have to run to entice people to not take an Uber but instead ride the bus? Perhaps we should stop subsidizing Uber by charging them a realistic registration and gas tax. Haha. 

[kermit]

19 hours ago, elrodvt said:

It would be interesting though if state agencies would be given access to Uber and the likes data in order to hone their bus routes? I assume they don't have that and it would require legislation which is not possible in NC to compel it? It would make an interesting study to determine how close and often a route would have to run to entice people to not take an Uber but instead ride the bus? Perhaps we should stop subsidizing Uber by charging them a realistic registration and gas tax. Haha. 

I do understand where y’all are coming from with the ‘the bus could be great if we had better data’ but IMO that perspective gets public transportation backward. Bus routes should connect places with medium densities to places with high density, in as straight a line as possible. 

Transit agencies can not, and should not, be expected to provide transit to low density areas, it’s not fiscally possible. People who move to low density areas need to accept that lack of access. There is no reason to run buses to neighborhoods where people took a couple of Ubers last week.  Bad bus routes come from shifting routes into low-density places for a couple of riders, eventually those riders disappear, but the bus continues to lumber through a place that will never generate more than a few riders in the future.

Edited January 11 by kermit

[elrodvt]

@kermit, That's not the idea or at least not mine. I think the Gastonia on demand model is nuts too. I'm also not saying this is the end all idea. But having more data is always very valuable when trying to optimize a system. 

Uber,Lyft etc are a gold mine of data on when trips happen and their end points. For example, the analysis might show you that with relatively small changes to an existing route you might pick up quite a few riders by adding a crosswalk, extra frequency 5-6pm and 1 extra stop to service a mid block office building. Now would it often coincide with med to high density paths and be along a current route? Sure, of course, but it's a cheap and effective potential optimization which we're blind to or im assuming we are? A little tangent -  Or they'll try for the bus across the street without a 6 block hike in the August sun due to a missing crosswalk and get run over (listened to a NYT daily podcast today about how pedestrian deaths have soared in the South which, although based on a lot of conjecture, was really interesting and they made just this point about crosswalks).

I can think of many data driven optimizations we could potentially investigate. It'd be a pretty cost effective project if the data were available. I developed data warehouses and analytics so am admittedly biased to data being the answer to many problems. :⁠-⁠)

[Windsurfer]

Just thought I'd throw this in. It's a picture of a pretty standard looking train/light rail depot in the suburbs of London. At the base is the area where you can buy tickets or top off your card, not to mention just switch tracks. Above are offices and condos. I can't think of a more convenient place to own a townhouse if you're coming in from out of town.  Would be a great design for the intersection of the Blue and Red lines. 

[tarhoosier]

To note for Americans, that on trains I have used in the UK (and all trains I assume) the direction of travel at the platform is the reverse of our practice. Do not wait on the side you expect and discover the train travel direction is opposite and you missed your connection.

[Windsurfer]

9 hours ago, videtur quam contuor said:

To note for Americans, that on trains I have used in the UK (and all trains I assume) the direction of travel at the platform is the reverse of our practice. Do not wait on the side you expect and discover the train travel direction is opposite and you missed your connection.

busses are even harder to remember. 

[kermit]

File Under: Competing Places Continue to Find Money to Expand Transit 

Gwinnett County is getting ready to vote on a 1% sales tax to generate $17 billion (with a B) for transit expansion. Gwinnett is roughly the same population as Mecklenburg.

While this is a metric-craptonne of money, it mostly only buys fake transit, which will leave Gwinnett forever traffic choked.

Quote

The bulk of the $17 billion would go toward covering the entire county with rideshare service. Passengers could request a vehicle to take a trip anywhere within the same area. Longer distances could be reached by being dropped off at a bus station.

A bus rapid transit line would link MARTA’s Doraville station to a Lawrenceville transfer station with stops at the OFS campus, Gwinnett Place Mall, Sugarloaf Mills, Gas South District, Northside Hospital, Gwinnett Technical College and Gwinnett College.

I am pretty completely underwhemed with what $17 billion is going to buy in Gwinnett, our $13 billion, largely rail-based, plan seems like a huge bargain in comparison.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2024/01/16/gwinnett-transit-nears-2024-referendum-call.html

Cobb County has already approved their 1% sales tax for transit which will raise $11 billion which is "promised" to include 7 BRT routes running in dedicated lanes.

Edited January 17 by kermit

[jthomas]

Wow - that is the most "Atlanta" idea I have ever heard. Americans really will do anything to avoid the transit and land use solutions that work everywhere else in the world.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

File Under: Competing Places Continue to Expand Transit

Gwinnett County is getting ready to vote on a 1% sales tax to generate $17 billion (with a B) for transit expansion. Gwinnett is roughly the same population as Mecklenburg.

While this is a metric-craptonne of money, it mostly only buys fake transit, which will leave Gwinnett forever traffic choked.

I am pretty completely underwhemed with what $17 billion is going to buy in Gwinnett, our $13 billion, largely rail-based, plan seems like a huge bargain in comparison.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2024/01/16/gwinnett-transit-nears-2024-referendum-call.html

Cobb County has already approved their 1% sales tax for transit which will raise $11 billion which is "promised" to include 7 BRT routes running in dedicated lanes.

The secret is that if we did it in the current economy it would cost closer to 30.

[Reverie39]

Gosh that is a baffling use of money

[RANYC]

Brent Cagle, interim CEO of CATS, was the featured guest on Charlotte Talks this morning.  Takeaways:

• Headcount situation has stabilized with operator vacancies down from 50-60% in some roles to a more normalized level of 17-18%
• Bus Reliability has vastly improved
• No mention of reducing streetcar or light rail headways
• Discussions with Norfolk Southern are progressing
• Nationally, mass transit ridership is at 75% of pre-pandemic levels, here in Charlotte at 62%
• Takes 20 cars to meet daily light rail scheduling obligations and we have 23 in inventory, even after the new NCDOT order that we remove a significant fleet of cars due to safety issues and maintenance requirements (consequently, rider experience won't be impacted, but I imagine this will interfere with any plans to reduce headways in the near term)
• National Express is the new outsourced bus operator, replacing RATPDEV.  National Express management are now baked into CATS management routines to ensure any of their concerns/needs are brought to decision-makers quickly and they aren't operating in the shadows.

[kermit]

RE BRT as a viable transit alternative:

One example of why BRT is viewed as less permanent than rail by developers is this bill that is advancing in Indiana that would prohibit Bus Only lanes in the state. While this bill does not require removing the dedicated lanes from the currently operating Red Line, I can certainly see how real estate investors would look at this bill and see the potential for that sort of BRT downgrading. 

This bill is particularly interesting since the Indiana legislature passed a bill a while (decade?) ago preventing Indianapolis from building any rail transit.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/a-bus-lane-elimination-bill-targets-indygo-blue-line-project

Edited January 19 by kermit

[KJHburg]

speaking of BRT here is about the transit overlay district along Raleigh's now under construction New Bern Ave line.  Evidently they have in place the TOD zoning in 2 of the 3 other routes.

Raleigh considers rezoning its New Bern Avenue BRT line for denser housing - Axios Raleigh

[kermit]

The $13.5 billion transit expansion plan is on the agenda for the city’s budget retreat. No real mention of possible modifications to it or lobbying in Raleigh. Just the vain hope that the tax can be put to a vote “in 2025”. 

I don’t get this sense these discussions will unstick anything. However, if they do, best case scenario for Charlotte transit expansion opening is now 2036 (assuming a November election, an affirmative result, and 10 years of construction within federal granting cycles). This aint kosher.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2024/01/23/cats-city-of-charlotte-transit-mobility-light-rail.html

[CLT2014]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:19 AM, kermit said:

The $13.5 billion transit expansion plan is on the agenda for the city’s budget retreat. No real mention of possible modifications to it or lobbying in Raleigh. Just the vain hope that the tax can be put to a vote “in 2025”. 

I don’t get this sense these discussions will unstick anything. However, if they do, best case scenario for Charlotte transit expansion opening is now 2036 (assuming a November election, an affirmative result, and 10 years of construction within federal granting cycles). This aint kosher.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2024/01/23/cats-city-of-charlotte-transit-mobility-light-rail.html

Looks like after the budget retreat the leaders agreed a 2024 election isn't feasible... so we are looking at a very long time before we see any sort of movement. Reading through the lines, nobody in the article feels responsible or accountable to make it happen from getting buy in from the suburban towns, negotiating with the General Assembly, to coming up with a viable funding plan. Everybody just knows the Plan is in a rough spot / not happening anytime soon and is like "well this sucks". 

Without additional rail, we are looking at another decade of developers feeling like they need to accommodate lots of parking and people in Charlotte feeling they need to drive everywhere if they don't live in the strip along the Blue Line. 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article284633565.html

Edited February 2 by CLT2014

[kermit]

Given the recent news about the Red Line ROW negotiations moving forward and the news about activist investors agitating at NS it now sounds possible that NS might sell CATS/NCDOT the O-line route outright rather than lease or provide time-shifted track rights. If that sale happens another possibility for (relatively) low cost transit opens up for Charlotte. [none of this is possible if NS wishes to retain any use rights on the line]

Red Line heavy rail could be run from N Meck down the Atando junction over to the NCRR and the (still just planned) passenger rail bypass tracks running to Gateway. By routing Red Line trains this way the (now completely unused) NS tracks from Atando to the NCRR at the ADM plant become a possible alternative for LRT. This LRT could run from Atando (and the I-85/Graham st industrial district) to Camp North End (which really does not need heavy rail to run through the middle of it, LRT would be MUCH safer).  The LRT could take a slight dogleg from the existing tracks to the edge of the Music Factory and then build an overpass to get over CSX and the NS tracks and join w the proposed Silver Line route.

The beauty of the plan is these LRT trains could then go north (over Panthers practice facility land) and then run up the Piedmont and Northern tracks up to Seversville, Savona Mill and Enderly Park before encountering any freight interference (ideally this run could be stretched out to Thomasboro / Hoskins, I think there is only one freight customer, Blue Max, between Enderly Park and Tank Town).

While this is just a crayon, the route would have the benefit of a) frequent service to Graham st / Camp North End; b) a Music Factory stop; c) low cost infrastructure since nearly all ROW is in place for rail other than the overpass over CSX and NS; d) provide an excellent counterbalance to Seversville / Enderly Park service on existing (but rebuilt) rail.

North end of route (blue line is the new LRT route I discuss here)

Southwest end of route:

 

 

Edited February 6 by kermit

[ertley]

On 2/5/2024 at 11:18 AM, kermit said:

Given the recent news about the Red Line ROW negotiations moving forward and the news about activist investors agitating at NS it now sounds possible that NS might sell CATS/NCDOT the O-line route outright rather than lease or provide time-shifted track rights. If that sale happens another possibility for (relatively) low cost transit opens up for Charlotte. [none of this is possible if NS wishes to retain any use rights on the line]

Red Line heavy rail could be run from N Meck down the Atando junction over to the NCRR and the (still just planned) passenger rail bypass tracks running to Gateway. By routing Red Line trains this way the (now completely unused) NS tracks from Atando to the NCRR at the ADM plant become a possible alternative for LRT. This LRT could run from Atando (and the I-85/Graham st industrial district) to Camp North End (which really does not need heavy rail to run through the middle of it, LRT would be MUCH safer).  The LRT could take a slight dogleg from the existing tracks to the edge of the Music Factory and then build an overpass to get over CSX and the NS tracks and join w the proposed Silver Line route.

The beauty of the plan is these LRT trains could then go north (over Panthers practice facility land) and then run up the Piedmont and Northern tracks up to Seversville, Savona Mill and Enderly Park before encountering any freight interference (ideally this run could be stretched out to Thomasboro / Hoskins, I think there is only one freight customer, Blue Max, between Enderly Park and Tank Town).

While this is just a crayon, the route would have the benefit of a) frequent service to Graham st / Camp North End; b) a Music Factory stop; c) low cost infrastructure since nearly all ROW is in place for rail other than the overpass over CSX and NS; d) provide an excellent counterbalance to Seversville / Enderly Park service on existing (but rebuilt) rail.

I endorse this 1,000%. As much as I would *love* to see the Silver Line built along the commercial rail tracks below Wilkinson, purely for the transformation it would engender on the west side, I recognize that getting a Red Line through the north end of the county is actually far more important, transportation-wise. I have been quietly, tentatively hopeful all these weeks that rumors about the O Line have been shared here. Realizing that in no realistic universe could the city/county likely attempt two rail transit projects simultaneously, I'm really, really hoping that this is going to be one of those "It was all for the best" situations, if something like what @kermit has proposed here can be realized. 

[kayman]

On 2/5/2024 at 11:18 AM, kermit said:

Given the recent news about the Red Line ROW negotiations moving forward and the news about activist investors agitating at NS it now sounds possible that NS might sell CATS/NCDOT the O-line route outright rather than lease or provide time-shifted track rights. If that sale happens another possibility for (relatively) low cost transit opens up for Charlotte. [none of this is possible if NS wishes to retain any use rights on the line]

Red Line heavy rail could be run from N Meck down the Atando junction over to the NCRR and the (still just planned) passenger rail bypass tracks running to Gateway. By routing Red Line trains this way the (now completely unused) NS tracks from Atando to the NCRR at the ADM plant become a possible alternative for LRT. This LRT could run from Atando (and the I-85/Graham st industrial district) to Camp North End (which really does not need heavy rail to run through the middle of it, LRT would be MUCH safer).  The LRT could take a slight dogleg from the existing tracks to the edge of the Music Factory and then build an overpass to get over CSX and the NS tracks and join w the proposed Silver Line route.

The beauty of the plan is these LRT trains could then go north (over Panthers practice facility land) and then run up the Piedmont and Northern tracks up to Seversville, Savona Mill and Enderly Park before encountering any freight interference (ideally this run could be stretched out to Thomasboro / Hoskins, I think there is only one freight customer, Blue Max, between Enderly Park and Tank Town).

While this is just a crayon, the route would have the benefit of a) frequent service to Graham st / Camp North End; b) a Music Factory stop; c) low cost infrastructure since nearly all ROW is in place for rail other than the overpass over CSX and NS; d) provide an excellent counterbalance to Seversville / Enderly Park service on existing (but rebuilt) rail.

North end of route (blue line is the new LRT route I discuss here)

Southwest end of route:

 

 

You should attend the Metropolitan Transit and (MTC) meeting this month on Wednesday February 28th at 5:30PM at the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Government Center and have all of this read into record via a letter or note to the current MTC Chair, Leigh Altman and the rest of the MTC members. It'll light a fire under their asses.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

You should attend the Metropolitan Transit and (MTC) meeting this month on Wednesday February 28th at 5:30PM at the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Government Center and have all of this read into record via a letter or note to the current MTC Chair, Leigh Altman and the rest of the MTC members. It'll light a fire under their asses.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but my conscience will not allow a request to have my analysis-free crayon be read into any record. 

Besides, all of those folks really should be reading UP anyway. 

[kayman]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but my conscience will not allow a request to have my analysis-free crayon be read into any record. 

Besides, all of those folks really should be reading UP anyway. 

I'm not talking about the maps but the message behind it. I can guarantee you that they don't read anything except Reddit, Nextdoor, or local Facebook groups posts. That's why what you said not your maps should be written into record. 

[kermit]

Very interesting data on unique (vs total) transit riders. It appears (in the Bay Area) the number of unique transit riders is back at pre pandemic levels. They take fewer trips now, presumably due to hybrid schedules however.

 

Edited February 8 by kermit

[KJHburg]

speaking of the Red Line I was up in Mount Mourne area of Mooresville today and since many do not know what this area looks like I snapped some drive bys.    Obviously the anchor of this area Lowes Corporate Campus but many do not know there is quite a bit of apartments and townhomes and medical offices in this area as well.  Other areas are much more low density.  Some snapshots from today.    The view of the intersection is Faith Rd and Hwy 115.  Then a couple driving up 115 N then left over the tracks to Fairview Rd then down the entrance road to Lowes which is Lowes Blvd.  

[tarhoosier]

My sister in law (and her sister, my future wife) lived in Charlotte. Her boyfriend, in Mooresville. There was a pay phone in Mount Mourne that was a local call to Charlotte. Mooresville was long distance thus some expense and charged by length of call. He would drive to Mt Mourne from Mooresville to call Mary at the 10¢ charge for an unlimited time local call. The pay phone is long gone, the idea of long distance also a memory, if even that. Rotary phones an artifact. But their love endureth all.

(Ask your female relatives of a certain generation if they recall dialing a rotary phone with the eraser end of the pencil. It protected their nails and nail treatments from damage. Nail treatments were less durable.)

This is how we lived.

[Windsurfer]

6 hours ago, videtur quam contuor said:

My sister in law (and her sister, my future wife) lived in Charlotte. Her boyfriend, in Mooresville. There was a pay phone in Mount Mourne that was a local call to Charlotte. Mooresville was long distance thus some expense and charged by length of call. He would drive to Mt Mourne from Mooresville to call Mary at the 10¢ charge for an unlimited time local call. The pay phone is long gone, the idea of long distance also a memory, if even that. Rotary phones an artifact. But their love endureth all.

(Ask your female relatives of a certain generation if they recall dialing a rotary phone with the eraser end of the pencil. It protected their nails and nail treatments from damage. Nail treatments were less durable.)

This is how we lived.

My grandmother had one of the really old and heavy rotary types. I think bakelite material, but not sure. Almost felt like iron it was so heavy.  I sure wish I knew where it went.  Found one over here in London recently at an antique store. They were asking $300.

Edited February 9 by Windsurfer
Edit. I wish there were an option to delete my own posts.