Learning from Other Places

[kayman]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Just back from the massive Atlanta metro area.  Since it is over twice as big as metro Charlotte you see and feel it in traffic, congestion, skylines etc. 

I was curious when metro Atlanta was the size of metro Charlotte today back in the mid 1990s or about 28 years ago.    History of metro Atlanta growth https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22922/atlanta/population#:

I will say they have lots of mixed use districts around the metro area from the larger ones like Perimeter Center area and the Cumberland Galleria Battery area of Cobb County.  Downtowns of the little towns and not so little suburban towers have all been reinvigorated into little walkable downtowns from little Acworth to larger suburbs like Alpharetta and Roswell.  

When your suburban edge cities have 400-500 foot high towers you have multiple skylines.  When I drive around there it reminds me of Los Angeles no wonder so much of the movie and tv production industry feels at home there.  

They just broke ground on their first Bus Rapid Transit line  (they have quite a few planned)   this is the one that just broke ground this week.  https://www.itsmarta.com/summerhill.aspx

https://www.itsmarta.com/brt.aspx    Charlotte needs to get behind some BRT and build it to connect to the light rail.  

that 420 foot tall TKE elevator test tower is something else at the Battery.  cranes up at the new Truist Bank Securities which is moving from Buckhead to the Battery and will overlook its namesake ballpark.  (talk about branding) 

Anyway I prefer Charlotte's size to Atlanta metro but the key is living close to where you work and having up to date traffic apps or living near transit lines.  

I worked on the Summerhill BRT for several years prior to coming here to Charlotte. It's going to be BRT-lite with limited signal prioritization due to GDOT's rules.  It was developed because of a TIGER grant was originally offered to Birmingham but later rewarded to Atlanta. However, Birmingham wind up with a BRT long before Atlanta by another federal discretionary grant awarded to it via its MPO. https://www.birminghamal.gov/brt

Oh yeah, I worked on the Birmingham project too.

Charlotte will get BRT & BRT-lite via the Envision My Ride plan implementation.  However, without a full 1-cent dedicated transit sales tax expansion then like Atlanta & Birmingham, the only way Charlotte will get BRT will be via multiple RAISE grant awarded to the region.  FYI, RAISE grants are the TIGER grant successor program in the IIJA bipartisan infrastructure law passed in 2022.

As I said earlier, Atlanta is not what Charlotte should look up to. The irony is Charlotte might wind up hitting the 4.5 million mark before 2040 yet still have a higher quality scale of development patterns and regional transportation network of regional greenways, trails, and cycle tracks along with regional rail & streetcar. As someone who has worked in both,  Charlotte has a better chance of surpassing Atlanta on the quality front for sure. 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by kayman

[KJHburg]

I would never want Charlotte to be like Atlanta but there are things we can learn from there for sure.  Their greenway and pathways fundraising is fantastic and lots of their suburban towns are all into more greenways.  

https://www.pathfoundation.org/our-story

that being said there is a lot of things to avoid doing here for sure.  I was happy to get back to my half the size metro area of Charlotte.  

One more thing they did or GDOT did was a reversible HOV toll express lanes along I-75.  I just question why not build one in each direction as their volumes are so high in both directions and you have to wait on it to open up in the afternoon going northbound on 75.  Here is a photo of their standalone express lane on the side of I-75.  Reversible lane to the right in this photo. 

[15895]

I really was always curious why people often mention not wanting to be like Atlanta so strongly here. It always seemed hypocritical to me how defensive people can get over the urbanity of Charlotte yet rag on Atlanta for the same thing people rag on Charlotte for? What is it about Atlanta that one hopes to never be like? 

The only way, IMO,  to not become Atlanta is to stop growing. Charlotte’s like a 50% smaller version of Atlanta, build wise IMO. 

SouthEnd is a tiny Midtown, Uptown is a smaller downtown, SouthPark a tiny Buckhead, etc. I just never could make any sense of it. The preference is to stay a small Atlanta? Because Atlanta is more urban pound for pound adjusted to size. The only reason one could make a case for Charlotte being more urban is simply because the highrises were concentrated in one area (which so was Atlanta’s when it had <3M) which is simply because it is smaller but we can already see SouthEnd matching or exceeding uptown in highrises already, Ballantyne is going taller etc. I remember back in the day a lot in here preferred to see Uptown fill up before moving to SouthEnd & Midtown (yet we still have literal grass fields a couple blocks from Trade/Tryon.) The dye seems cast at this point. 

Atlanta seems like a crystal ball of what Charlotte will be in decades assuming growth patterns remain the same. Only Charlotte doesn’t have the benefit of being the the most prominent southern metro or have mass transit that could match MARTA or be the state capital and only major city in the state. 

[kayman]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:37 PM, KJHburg said:

I would never want Charlotte to be like Atlanta but there are things we can learn from there for sure.  Their greenway and pathways fundraising is fantastic and lots of their suburban towns are all into more greenways.  

https://www.pathfoundation.org/our-story

that being said there is a lot of things to avoid doing here for sure.  I was happy to get back to my half the size metro area of Charlotte.  

One more thing they did or GDOT did was a reversible HOV toll express lanes along I-75.  I just question why not build one in each direction as their volumes are so high in both directions and you have to wait on it to open up in the afternoon going northbound on 75.  Here is a photo of their standalone express lane on the side of I-75.  Reversible lane to the right in this photo. 

Yet the PATH Foundation in Metro Atlanta has yet to get most of the trails built. The Silver Comet Trail is only continuously connected one there.  Greenways are a piecemeal actually more piecemeal collection of trails than Metro Charlotte. Yes some suburban jurisdictions there are embracing of non-automobile development but it's not overwhelmingly supportive regionwide anymore than here.

From my long history of  frequent business there and living here, I honestly can say PATH Foundation and Catawba Land Conservancy are about even on getting funded and implementing the respective regional trail systems of both respective metros.

What we could learn from Atlanta is getting a regional council (of governments) that houses all of our regional land use & comprehensive planning efforts, environmental planning, water resource management  planning, regional air quality monitoring on both the North Carolina and South Carolina sides of the metro area, and the federally-manadated, metropolitan planning organization(s) [MPOs] work led by one organization like the Atlanta Regional Commission. Also the creation of a regional public transportation  authority like the ATL (Atlanta Regional Transit Link Authority) to provide guidance to regional public transportation funding can be handled, all is the regional microtransit, circulars, and local areas transportation demand management, and regionwide transportation planning efforts coordinated by one entity such as implementing recommendations and strategies within the bi-state, Connect Beyond regional mobility & transit study. Similar to what exists in the Triangle as GoTriangle aka the Triangle Transit Authority. 

All of those things can be learned from Atlanta and should be emulated here in Charlotte. 

 

Oh yeah, this recent article published by WFAE is why I said that one entity non- municipal or county-level government entity like Centralina Regional Council should house our area metropolitan planning organizations.

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-06-19/there-is-another-fight-brewing-with-big-implications-for-transit-and-toll-lanes

Arguments like these are direct results of the City of Charlotte & Mecklenburg County vis-a-vie legally known as the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Planning Department most know as "the Charlotte Planning, Design & Development Department" as the lead planning agency for the federally mandated, metropolitan planning organization (MPO) for the entire Charlotte urban area .

https://hepgis.fhwa.dot.gov/fhwagis/RWDViewMap.aspx?map=MPO+Boundaries|MPO+and+2020+Census+Urban+Areas

 

We can also learn from Atlanta how to act like one region that has metro counties in two states. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by kayman

[KJHburg]

Learning from other places Eastern NC edition and yes Charlotte can learn a thing or two from smaller cities and towns.

First stop Raleigh and its fantastic greenway system.  They have over 100 miles of paved greenways in the city and that is just Raleigh.   They are the model for greenways in the southeast.

https://raleighnc.gov/greenways   Took 2 short walks on Neuse River Greenway which is 27.5 miles long and part of the NC Mountains to Sea trail.   https://raleighnc.gov/parks/trails

Like their lane markings so there is truly a passing lane for bikers vs walkers/joggers.  Check out this suspension bridge on the east side of Raleigh.   Then walked a short stint on the Crabtree Creek  Trail which is 15.9 miles across the city.   Like that compass painted or stamped into the greenway.  

Oh yeah Cary next to Raleigh has another 80 miles of greenways.  

[KJHburg]

Learning from Eastern NC part 2.  The city of Wilson.  

Make arts a tourist draw and this small city of Wilson is revitalizing its downtown based on this Whirligig park which a local artist did.   New breweries, shops, restaurants have sprouted nearby.  Also Brank Banking and Trust (BB&T) was founded here.  When they merged with Suntrust Truist Bank donated 2 class B office buildings from the 1970s to the city.  They tore both down built a brand new community YMCA and now building new apartments right in downtown.

Notice these small apartment buildings right by downtown Wilson.   Yes downtown Wilson has a social district like most places in NC outside of Mecklenburg county.  High rise red brick hotel is awaiting renovation back to a hotel the Hotel Cherry.  

 

[rancenc]

One of the highest sales margin malls in the country at one time.  Changing economy though?  

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by rancenc

[DJ8hep]

I finally had the chance to be in downtown Minneapolis after two years since moving to Charlotte! It was great seeing some of my favorite places as well as get a closer look at the newer skyscrapers being built there. Minneapolis is definitely not growing at the rate of Charlotte but it certainly has a lot already put in place that have helped its success over the decades. I got to try out a rooftop I hadn’t been to before with a good view of the skyline! 

Edited July 4, 2023 by DJ8hep

[KJHburg]

Dear Charlotte,

Hey it is smaller and younger little bro Raleigh.  I like your big airport Charlotte and your tall tall buildings.  We have some too and more coming.  We need to get along better for we are both Tar Heels.  I know you are my big older sister but lets work together.    (1768 CLT and  me in 1792) Think of what we could  do together against those Texan boys and those Tennessee ville-ans.  We are both growing so fast (and yes you know I am growing faster).   We have lots of greenways and parks up here and I know you are building lots of greenways keep it up and one day you can have as many miles as we have.  Thought I send some photos of what's been happening around here lately.  And remember to pull for my Carolina Hurricanes (the only professional sports team to win a championship in our state) just like I pull for your Hornets and Panthers.  

Drop me a note soon.

Raleigh

PS check out this picture of myself downtown at the convention center and come see me! 

Cleared site is for the 33 story apartment tower atop the Raleigh Union Bus Station hub of their new BRT next to their Union Train station which has Amtrak.  

20 story 400H mixed use tower finishing up offices and apartments.

20 story Capital Square apartment tower underway crane from deck view. 

15 story apartment tower in North Hills, 2 office towers,  12 story Midtown Exchange office building in north Raleigh. 

Greenways over 100 miles in Raleigh alone 

Bandwidth building looks like Centene building in west Raleigh. 

Facade saves all over the region.  

[KJHburg]

Durham says me too.  Downtown Durham is going through a huge boom in apartment complexes saw 3 underway and a high rise condo and apartment tower called the Novus.  

In fact both Raleigh and Durham and their downtowns are building more apartments than uptown Charlotte right now.  Both cities have high rise residential under construction and numerous stick built buildings underway.  We have 2 in uptown right now 3 if you count the one right outside the 277 loop. 

Downtown Durham.   the Novus 27 story with both for sale condos and rental apartments.  Why can't we have a building like this with some new for sale product?

https://www.thenovus.com/

https://zomliving.com/gallery/maizon-durham/

Durham is really booming with growth.  Google, Duke University, other tech and pharma firms have their offices there and lots of tech startups too. 

Record amount of new construction of residential in downtown Durham:  from WRAL

There are 2,200 units under construction in downtown Durham.

The Firefly: Four apartment units
The George: 40 condo units
The Vega: 59 condo units
The Rigsbee: 82 apartment units
300 E Main St Site 1: 105 affordable units
Aura 509: 182 apartment units
GeerHouse: 220 apartment units
Venable Durham Apartments: 221 apartment units
The Ramsey: 241 apartment units
The Novus: 188 apartment units; 54 condo units
Beckon: 263 apartment units
Camden Durham: 354 apartment units
608 Mangum: Six townhome units
The Willow Durham: 14 condo units
Array Durham: 18 condo units
120 Broadway Street: 25 townhome units
The Terraces at Morehead Hill: 25 townhome units
Elliott Square: 37 townhome units
The Grove: 62 townhome units

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by KJHburg

[15895]

Why, Hello Midtown Atlanta. That’s quite the lovely amount of Infill residential you got being built

[15895]

Ok. 
 

We know Austin is King of sunbelt High Rise development  not even “just for its size.” 
 

But they’re also passing some great laws that hopefully will radically change the makeup of the city over time. This is *great* news. Highrises are great but density really come moreso from policies like the proposed/passed. 
 

 

Hopefully the Federal Government bankrolls Cap Metro Because transit/mobility will be key to this policy living up to its potential. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[smeagolsfree]

This is happening in Nashville in pockets of town as Kevin has seen on some of his visits. Many of the historic neighborhoods can apply for what is calla DADU (detached accessory dwelling unit) 

"The DADU must have a maximum of 700 square foot living space and a footprint maximum of either 750 or 1000 square foot depending on the lot size. Height must be less than the principal structure. The DADU must be behind the principal structure with minimum setbacks of three to ten feet."

Many folks are using these as air B&B's or other rentals. Also, in areas such as the Nations the entire neighborhood has come down and been rebuilt from single family homes on one lot to 2 to 4 homes on the lot. Other areas this has happened are Charlotte Park, Salemtown, & many other neighborhoods of East, North & South Nashville increasing density of older neighborhoods, but also causing mass gentrification. In the case of Salemtown it was a lower. The Rural parts of the Metro Davidson County is pretty much business as usual.

There are pos and cons to this so be prepared if Charlotte adopts this. I have friends of friends that live in Austin, and they have many of the same complaints of the folks living in Nashville.

[elrodvt]

That's very interesting. Do you know what the most complained about aspects are?

I don't understand the details of how the NC state legislature can seemingly override any local policy initiatives in planning. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, they do seem to do so? If any legislature is worse than the current NCGA I would think it'd be Texas. So, how does Austin get away with this while Charlotte seems hamstrung at every turn? 

Edited July 21, 2023 by elrodvt

[tozmervo]

17 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Ok. 
We know Austin is King of sunbelt High Rise development  not even “just for its size.” But they’re also passing some great laws that hopefully will radically change the makeup of the city over time. This is *great* news. Highrises are great but density really come moreso from policies like the proposed/passed. 
opefully the Federal Government bankrolls Cap Metro Because transit/mobility will be key to this policy living up to its potential. 

That minimum lot size still seems really high. My townhome sits on a 1500 SF lot in Cornelius. 

36 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

That's very interesting. Do you know what the most complained about aspects are?

I don't understand the details of how the NC state legislature can seemingly override any local policy initiatives in planning. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong, they do seem to do so? If any legislature is worse than the current NCGA I would think it'd be Texas. So, how does Austin get away with this while Charlotte seems hamstrung at every turn? 

The full messy explanation 
Is North Carolina a Dillon’s Rule State? - Coates’ Canons NC Local Government Law (unc.edu)

[15895]

4 hours ago, tozmervo said:

That minimum lot size still seems really high. My townhome sits on a 1500 SF lot in Cornelius. 

The full messy explanation 
Is North Carolina a Dillon’s Rule State? - Coates’ Canons NC Local Government Law (unc.edu)

The 3 LKN towns in North Meck have really great zoning and always look (& are) more dense than the rest of meck outside the pockets in center city - specifically uptown/SouthEnd (obviously)
 

Also love how how in LKN I don’t think you can have driveways in front anymore of your homes (only on street parking and garages in back), retail parking lots and gas stations can’t front the street, sidewalks are required now everywhere I think and the towns are buildings them quite fast where there wasn’t any. Their neighborhoods have imperfect gross and connectivity to multiple roads. Center City really needs to start knocking down its older housing and rebuilding like LKN (but you can see what they do knock down is replaced with giant houses on giant lots in most center city hoods vs. the typical stuff going in LKN). Sometimes townhomes but it looks one by one tiny little homes on giant lots get replaced with mcmansions on giant lots. 

But that’s my uneducated layman’s perspective. I don’t know all of Meck’s zonings but just as an observer, LKN/North Meck seems a lot more dense than everyone else (again, outside of uptown/SouthEnd) 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[rancenc]

San Francisco recently, doesn't seem to be a city to emulate as it relates to downtown retail.

https://www.bollyinside.com/news/space/san-francisco-mayor-discusses-increased-demand-for-downtown-office-space-as-store-signs-diminish/

[KJHburg]

Tallest building being built in Atlanta in 30 plus years the new 730 foot tall mixed used Midtown tower by Rockefeller Group

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/rockefeller-midtown-development-fresh-images-details-tallest-construction-project

Edited August 1, 2023 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

this is from Dallas and downtown Dallas about doing something with on street parking that includes more areas for outside dining and dynamic parking prices to change over the spaces more often. 

from the Downtown Dallas development agency

"The curb is no longer just for parking your car," The Dallas Morning News writes this week.

That is at the core of the City's first comprehensive Curb Lane Management Policy, a draft of which is now available for a final round of public feedback through Friday, August 25.

Two years in the works, the plan aims to address our ever-evolving uses of the curb adjacent lanes throughout the Central Business District, and other urban neighborhoods. It is sorely needed to help organize rideshare, motorized scooters, private food delivery, and on-street café seating, among other uses, and to create a simpler framework for private operators to leverage the value of adjacent curb space.

DDI's strategic 360 Plan called for a curb lane management study to better organize the variety of uses and benefits provided by Downtown curb lanes. And DDI has played a key role providing input throughout development of the plan to ensure it reflects the needs of the Downtown community.""

from the city of Dallas maybe some good ideas for Uptown Charlotte and other areas.

CurbManagementPolicy_DRAFT_07172023.pdf (dallascityhall.com)

[DMann]

Article about underused office space:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/us-cities-most-vacant-offices/

 

[smeagolsfree]

Raleigh is a surprise to me to be on the list!

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

Raleigh is a surprise to me to be on the list!

Big shift to remote work in job markets with software engineers. Hence cities like San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, Raleigh, et. on the list.

Edited August 3, 2023 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Raleigh is a surprise to me to be on the list!

It has to do more with tech companies which Raleigh has a lot of going more remote.  Citrix is abandoning their 100K plus office for just 2 floors in a nearby office building.  Yet at the same time Apple is getting ready to build their office campus at RTP and they already lease 300K sq of office space in Cary and Durham now.  

[smeagolsfree]

I think we could have been in the same boat but out third and tallest Amazon tower (500k sq ft) was not started, and the Oracle Campus is still in design. We have also had a couple of tall office towers that have not started as well and I think one has simply been sent to the trash pile, but Lincoln still owns the property and Highwoods owns property on a second. We may be in better shape than other places. I do think our Ritz Carlton is toast but there are other hotels waiting in for a start. 

[Windsurfer]

Ouch.  How do we develop 'quirkiness' and identity, without sacrificing practicality?  Will Charlotte ever shake this vanilla reputation? Should we?

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a-tale-of-two-cities-portland-offers-a-worrying-example-for-seattle/?amp=1