Atherton Mill Redevelopment

[CTiger]

50 minutes ago, Seabrooke said:

Driving by last night, seeing Free People, then Sephora with Indaco, a mens clothing store, a couple of salons, then west elm gave South Blvd. a metropolitan feel.

You touched on the biggest issue with this project.  It looks good from the heated seats of your car, but nothing about it makes me want to get out and poke around the stores.  All the retail is either pinned against South Blvd or pinned against surface parking.   They built a huge garage and wrapped it with retail, but then still wrapped it again with surface parking.  That is just a waste.  The brewery might help the rail trail portion come alive, and I'm excited for that part of the project.  However, I can't find a compliment to give this thing at the moment.  It feels like a strip mall with stick built apartments on top (because thats what it is)

Thank you KJHburg for this picture, which should tell you everything you need to know if you are wondering what it feels like to walk around here:

 

[RANYC]

I live at the Ashton and hate how it looks.  Very disappointing.  I expected this to be designed as though it would become "Atherton Village," but alas, it really does have a strip mall flair about it, especially at ground level.  The strip across South Blvd from this is also a disappointment of a remodel.  How is it that South Park, albeit conservatively designed, seems to have such high quality design and architecture, and South End appears to get the garbage?

[kermit]

14 hours ago, Seabrooke said:

My favorite coffee shop is located at Atherton, the market is great, and I like Big Ben and a couple of shops. I think the mill interior is beautiful, which has always been the appeal of this place.

All of this stuff (Not Just Coffee, Big Ben etc.) is great, but it all existed before the project began. Edens came in and built a bunch of new crap adjacent to the original buildings (where Big Ben, etc.  are). The new deck and stores only detract from what were pretty decent bones for retail and walkability.

Edited December 13, 2019 by kermit

[Rufus]

I think what this is highlighting is the vast spectrum of opinion regarding urban development and the needs of the people that use it. Not everyone hates this development because it provides something more attractive to them, not just aesthetically, but also in the form of things they appreciate and value. And for others, this development just doesn't cut it, and it sets a bad precedent. I actually think this project might end up being more beneficial in the long run when we are able to review the needs and wants, not just from our UP bubble, but from others in the community and try our best to provide something convenient with the hope that it will help lead to a habit change. Not everyone wants to walk everywhere. You and I know that walkability is essential, but not everyone sees this, especially in the economics of development. What this does do is minimize drive time, put things closer together so smaller trips, maybe even all while walking are accomplished.  

We can complain about this project till the cows come home, but it is still going to be successful in the eyes of the developer. And it's a step, if minimal, in the right direction. Let's not excuse it, but let's make note of it and move to the next project. 

[kermit]

11 hours ago, Rufus said:

I think what this is highlighting is the vast spectrum of opinion regarding urban development and the needs of the people that use it. Not everyone hates this development because it provides something more attractive to them, not just aesthetically, but also in the form of things they appreciate and value. And for others, this development just doesn't cut it, and it sets a bad precedent. I actually think this project might end up being more beneficial in the long run when we are able to review the needs and wants, not just from our UP bubble, but from others in the community and try our best to provide something convenient with the hope that it will help lead to a habit change. Not everyone wants to walk everywhere. You and I know that walkability is essential, but not everyone sees this, especially in the economics of development. What this does do is minimize drive time, put things closer together so smaller trips, maybe even all while walking are accomplished.  

We can complain about this project till the cows come home, but it is still going to be successful in the eyes of the developer. And it's a step, if minimal, in the right direction. Let's not excuse it, but let's make note of it and move to the next project. 

I dunno. Its not the volume of parking that most offends me about Atherton, its the lack of attention to design. The new portion of the project feels like a parking deck with random retail (and a crap-ton of bare walls) scattered randomly around it all.  The bad news for Edens is that convenience-oriented retail is a thing of the past, when shoppers want 'easy' they just use Amazon Prime. The only thing that will consistently lure shoppers to the real world is entertainment (e.g. a town center kind of vibe), that is going to be tough to create in a parking-centered development like Atherton. Sure, the rail trail might dress this place up a bit, it only welcomes pedestrians to the edge of the project (where the retail can't be seen), there is nothing that draws people into the center.

Honestly the Lowes across the street is a better urban retail design. Its a ton of square footage, parking is thoughtfully integrated, and some thought was devoted to the pedestrian experience around the store (relatively few blank walls).

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by kermit

[RANYC]

6 hours ago, Rufus said:

I think what this is highlighting is the vast spectrum of opinion regarding urban development and the needs of the people that use it. Not everyone hates this development because it provides something more attractive to them, not just aesthetically, but also in the form of things they appreciate and value. And for others, this development just doesn't cut it, and it sets a bad precedent. I actually think this project might end up being more beneficial in the long run when we are able to review the needs and wants, not just from our UP bubble, but from others in the community and try our best to provide something convenient with the hope that it will help lead to a habit change. Not everyone wants to walk everywhere. You and I know that walkability is essential, but not everyone sees this, especially in the economics of development. What this does do is minimize drive time, put things closer together so smaller trips, maybe even all while walking are accomplished.  

We can complain about this project till the cows come home, but it is still going to be successful in the eyes of the developer. And it's a step, if minimal, in the right direction. Let's not excuse it, but let's make note of it and move to the next project. 

We argue the merits and lack of merits of the current design to inform the sense of what we want, and what to advocate for, going forward.  Just part of the community discourse.

[Prodev]

I'm definitely not defending the end result, especially not the exposed deck, but there are limiting factors to begin with, both from a code perspective as well as from a retailer perspective related to giving certain concessions in order to get the high quality tenants they did. I think some of the areas they missed are a result of having two developers with two different areas of expertise and having two architects focused only on their respective parts of the project and taking direction from only one of the two developers, so the vision was not always aligned or in sync. The exposed deck is really a result of the fact that they jammed 60k SF of ground floor retail into a stick built apartment project. That's 2.5x more than Bradham on a slightly smaller site and prior to Bradham, the largest retail component in an apartment project in South End is probably Camden Gallery which has less than 9,000 SF. 

[videtur quam contuor]

This project seems to be parking supported by housing and retail rather than the converse. 

To anyone who has used that parking structure at Atherton, what personal safety features are incorporated? Emergency call posts? Circulating security officers? Lighted emergency exits, one way doors? Anything?

[kermit]

Wasn't this going to have an Urban Outfitters?

[Cadi40]

Personally I would’ve definitely gotten more use out of an Urban Outfitters and it’d be a fairly profitable store especially in an area like South End.

[kermit]

Atherton rail trail (it’s still not opened up because of sidewalk work over by Big Ben)

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by kermit

[KJHburg]

RailTrail on Atherton side still not open but it is looking good.  Today from the other side.  

sorry for getting some people in my photos just too many walkers joggers on the Rail Trail today. 

[HighRiseHillbilly]

I think these are some darn fine looking apartments. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7_XWWNnG_2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited January 31, 2020 by HighRiseHillbilly

[JacksonH]

Sorry to say it but I HATE the way this turned out.  I had really high hopes and this development was the one I was most looking forward to.  I stopped by there with my brother in December and was so disappointed.  First of all, coming from the Rail Trail, had I not known there was a CAVA restaurant and stores facing South Blvd., I wouldn't have known to walk around there.  My brother didn't even realize any of that was around there.  Second, the place is surrounded by a parking lot.  I was under the impression from looking at plans that that was going to be a big plaza between the Rail Trail and South Blvd.  What the heck happened?  Putting in that parking lot disengages the place from the Rail Trail and from pedestrian orientation.  It's a turnoff and basically this is nothing but a bland suburban strip mall plopped down in the middle of South End.  It's  a detriment more than an enhancement to the area, and a wasted opportunity.  And the way it's built is as if they're trying to hide the historic mill.  Surely they could have come up with  a design that could actually while also adding residential and  retail  space and engaging pedestrians.  It made me very sad so I quickly left.

[j-man]

22 hours ago, JacksonH said:

Sorry to say it but I HATE the way this turned out.  I had really high hopes and this development was the one I was most looking forward to.  I stopped by there with my brother in December and was so disappointed.  First of all, coming from the Rail Trail, had I not known there was a CAVA restaurant and stores facing South Blvd., I wouldn't have known to walk around there.  My brother didn't even realize any of that was around there.  Second, the place is surrounded by a parking lot.  I was under the impression from looking at plans that that was going to be a big plaza between the Rail Trail and South Blvd.  What the heck happened?  Putting in that parking lot disengages the place from the Rail Trail and from pedestrian orientation.  It's a turnoff and basically this is nothing but a bland suburban strip mall plopped down in the middle of South End.  It's  a detriment more than an enhancement to the area, and a wasted opportunity.  And the way it's built is as if they're trying to hide the historic mill.  Surely they could have come up with  a design that could actually while also adding residential and  retail  space and engaging pedestrians.  It made me very sad so I quickly left.

I agree. It looks half done, poorly executed, and old. Not historic old, just old. The white that breaks up the brick looks so bland, and the parking garage should have been bricked at the least because... The retail section with Sephora looks decent though. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by j-man

[HighRiseHillbilly]

Yeah. But the apartments look nice.

[Urban Cowboy]

I desperately want to like Crescent because they've been intentional about site selection and street level retail, but they really half ass a lot of stuff. But then I'm disappointed because I start realizing that they're not developing to improve an area - it's to make money. Finally it all starts making sense. I appreciate the effort, truly, but hiring local muralists to dress up their spaces is just lipstick on a pig, IMO. Camden seems to be more focused on design and details - Crescent should take notes.

While I'm hating on Crescent - I should remind everyone of this P.O.S. 

[j-man]

Not to get off topic but I truly see Charlotte as a divided city as far as quality and and beauty of apartment buildings. Most ones in Southpark, University City, and Ballantyne look nice. But they are just throwing up anything in SouthEnd and Uptown. Think about it....if it isn’t a high rise then it’s just ehhh. I wish they would really bring more vibrant brick colors and maybe some stucco into the mix to really have them stand out. And Try harder to hide or blend the barking garages in better. That’s all. 

[Guest]

I desperately want to like Crescent because they've been intentional about site selection and street level retail, but they really half ass a lot of stuff. But then I'm disappointed because I start realizing that they're not developing to improve an area - it's to make money. Finally it all starts making sense. I appreciate the effort, truly, but hiring local muralists to dress up their spaces is just lipstick on a pig, IMO. Camden seems to be more focused on design and details - Crescent should take notes.
While I'm hating on Crescent - I should remind everyone of this P.O.S. 

In the case of Atherton, Crescent is literally only responsible for the apartment building. Nothing else. Not the parking, the retail, or the rail trail. Very little of anything that’s being complained about. Edens conceived this whole thing, had it designed by MV+A and used Novel to develop the apartments.


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[Guest]

in the case of Novel Stonewall, I’d imagine the massive parking deck was so expensive, that some corners had to be cut without sacrificing interior detailing. I’m not sure how they got away with no articulation facing 277, but I blame that also on the massive parking deck.

 

Wish the deck was smaller but 500 apartments, 2 hotels and 60k of retail, whether they are beside a light rail stop or not, needs a good amount of parking. Lenders require it.

 

Make every square inch of this place super high quality, and then people will be complaining even more about how over priced the rents are.

 

 

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[Guest]

I think you are also losing sight of the demographic differences between a potential renter at Novel Stonewall and one in South Park, and what is considered desirable for each group.

 

It’s about delivering a product that a early 20s finance grad from Chapel Hill thats making too much money for what he/she actually does, and giving them a bunch of amenities they think THEY NEED, but they’ll probably hardly use, but pay a premium for. Give them a space to store their car, or cars, so they can escape to where they are actually from on the weekends.

 

 

 

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[videtur quam contuor]

What growing cities which could be our peers have significant development that is not dreck?

[Guest]

What growing cities which could be our peers have significant development that is not dreck?

None, because the job of building for millennials ain’t cheap. And nobody is going to build the Ritz Carlton for Them


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[CLT>]

7 hours ago, Urban Cowboy said:

 Camden seems to be more focused on design and details - Crescent should take notes.

 

Sadly companies like crescent (and many others) build crap and sell it off to an institutional investor so they have zero interest  in what happens to something 18mo or more down the line. Camden is a REIT and builds and holds most of their  projects so they put more  into them because they're gonna be stuck with them for the long haul.

On 12/28/2019 at 1:22 PM, kermit said:

 

Interesting to see the art from the former Carolina Theatre Pocket Park make  a move down here!

[Cpink]

Does anyone know when they'll start constructing the new blue line stop at Atherton Mill?