The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Luvemtall]

13 minutes ago, titanhog said:

Not in 2022, we don’t.  That’s what I’m talking about.  If none of the interstates through Nashville were built, what would Nashville be right now?  I don’t think any of us know.  We can guess.  If I-840 was as close as the interstate got to Nashville and the rest of the way it was Nolensville Pike, M’boro Road, Ashland City Highway, etc…what would Nashville be? 

Right! I think it would be possibly a lot of clogged streets, for starters . That’s if the city even grew. Without the interstate providing a means for tourists and industry  to easily get in and out , the chances are it might have become stagnant. Just think of Route 66 and how the small towns that got bypassed when the interstate was built have all but died and the ones that the interstate went though have blossomed. Like it or not it’s a way of life. Now granted , a True Beltway would help eliminate a lot of unnecessary traffic from the inner core, but to have a major city function properly, are two - four lane secondary roads really going to be able to handle the amount of traffic that it takes to move people and goods around ? Don’t think so, and trains might be ok and able to move more in a single unit but they are limited to the tracks they run on . You still need trucks and busses and cars to get the final miles . Now also with the interstates running the way they do here , that’s a lot of R.O.W that is available to run monorail or light rail so it should be utilized. But to eliminate all interstates though the city is wishful thinking, it’s more a necessity and life line then some will like to admit 

[titanhog]

It’s fun to think about.  Maybe if the interstates / freeways (like Briley) weren’t here…then there would be a vast public transit system running from all of the suburbs (especially near 840).  Maybe Davidson County would be twice a large and the suburbs would be twice as small…with Nashville having twice the skyscrapers to hold more people since they don’t want to drive all the way to the suburbs on 2-4 lane city roads.

Or…maybe it just keeps people away.  However…I do like the thoughts of the downtown loop and 440 loop not being there and those neighborhoods being joined.

[Nashvillain]

11 minutes ago, titanhog said:

It’s fun to think about.  Maybe if the interstates / freeways (like Briley) weren’t here…then there would be a vast public transit system running from all of the suburbs (especially near 840).  Maybe Davidson County would be twice a large and the suburbs would be twice as small…with Nashville having twice the skyscrapers to hold more people since they don’t want to drive all the way to the suburbs on 2-4 lane city roads.

Or…maybe it just keeps people away.  However…I do like the thoughts of the downtown loop and 440 loop not being there and those neighborhoods being joined.

I like this vision. 

We can also see many alternatives in European cities where highways usually divert around dense urban centers or else really slim down or become boulevards woven into the rest of the street grid. 

[titanhog]

4 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

I like this vision. 

We can also see many alternatives in European cities where highways usually divert around dense urban centers or else really slim down or become boulevards woven into the rest of the street grid. 

I really don’t know one way or another if it would have helped or hurt us.  Seems like there was a time when it would have hurt us because of the thinking of the time (that interstate highways meant growth and success)…but now it maybe help us.  Really an interesting discussion because I think most of us would love to not have that downtown loop (though I’d be less opposed if it were below grade.)

Edited July 14, 2022 by titanhog

[markhollin]

Update on Walsh Road extension and bridge over Brown's Creek to intersection with Craighead St. from Fairgrounds. Nearing completion. 

Looking west from Craighead St. 1/2 block north of  Seminole Ave:

Looking SW from Criaghead St. 1/2 bock south of Nolensville Pike:

[Baronakim]

On 7/14/2022 at 12:25 PM, titanhog said:

It’s fun to think about.  Maybe if the interstates / freeways (like Briley) weren’t here…then there would be a vast public transit system running from all of the suburbs (especially near 840).  Maybe Davidson County would be twice a large and the suburbs would be twice as small…with Nashville having twice the skyscrapers to hold more people since they don’t want to drive all the way to the suburbs on 2-4 lane city roads.

Or…maybe it just keeps people away.  However…I do like the thoughts of the downtown loop and 440 loop not being there and those neighborhoods being joined.

Sorry folks but I disagree somewhat with much of the argument of the interstate loop recently.  I think that the close-in loop has DEFINED Nashville much more so than a loop further out.  To some extent 440 has created another boundry.  I think this is much more beneficial than the city sized intersections of Atlanta's loop for instance.  I also think putting 840 so far from the city core precludes such development. leaving the loop as what it serves Nashville best... a through traffic bypass of the core.   I think for instance the East Nashville neighborhoods have been  preserved more intact like in East Nashville because the interstate loop acts as boundry.  For the most part, development has not goobled up the radial corridors leaving much of them very little changed form 50 years ago  A time traveler would have little trouble orienting themselves in Inglewood, Madison or Goodletslville after 50 years.  This is changing but fortunately the overriding development is multfam residential.  The existing interstates would be exceptionally  inproved IMO if the major bottlenecks were improved, such as the Fern Street overpass.  There is still adequate land to expand the width of I 40/ I 24 on the east side from Fern Street to across the river widening the bridges to handle the massive loads being funneled from Trinity Lane.  The short distance from the Sillman bridges to the I 24 intersection will remain a distaster regretably untill a solution with the CSX bridges can be effected and the interstate widened.  Having it in a rock canyon created a massive bottleneck. that has lasted for 5 decades.   As to public transit, I think that  vey many of the systems in places like New York, Atlanta  or D.C. only happened when their populations reached about the size of Nashville currently.  The kind of "vast public transit"  does not evolve as a natural result of a city's growth.   The universalty of the personal automobile made the suburbs possible.  The bus system was largely relegated to less privileged citizens and suffered from that image here in Nashville.   I doubt that a new system would change that attitude here.  The suburbs were created by the interstates and radial corridors feeding them. They were necessary for interstate commerce and Nashville is a natural hub.  I don't see a great deal of difference as you envision without them.  I prefer the loop system to the Atlanta system of huge corridors slicing the city like I 75 and I 85.    This is just an opinion of an old coot.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Baronakim

[Nashvillain]

Probably going to flood this thread with articles about bike lanes and safe streets in case anyone is interested: 

Want To Make Money? Build A Business On A Bike Lane

https://www.fastcompany.com/90182112/want-to-make-money-build-a-business-on-a-bike-lane

[titanhog]

On 7/16/2022 at 9:02 AM, Baronakim said:

Sorry folks but I disagree somewhat with much of the argument of the interstate loop recently.  I think that the close-in loop has DEFINED Nashville much more so than a loop further out.  To some extent 440 has created another boundry.  I think this is much more beneficial than the city sized intersections of Atlanta's loop for instance.  I also think putting 840 so far from the city core precludes such development. leaving the loop as what it serves Nashville best... a through traffic bypass of the core.   I think for instance the East Nashville neighborhoods have been  preserved more intact like in East Nashville because the interstate loop acts as boundry.  For the most part, development has not goobled up the radial corridors leaving much of them very little changed form 50 years ago  A time traveler would have little trouble orienting themselves in Inglewood, Madison or Goodletslville after 50 years.  This is changing but fortunately the overriding development is multfam residential.  The existing interstates would be exceptionally  inproved IMO if the major bottlenecks were improved, such as the Fern Street overpass.  There is still adequate land to expand the width of I 40/ I 24 on the east side from Fern Street to across the river widening the bridges to handle the massive loads being funneled from Trinity Lane.  The short distance from the Sillman bridges to the I 24 intersection will remain a distaster regretably untill a solution with the CSX bridges can be effected and the interstate widened.  Having it in a rock canyon created a massive bottleneck. that has lasted for 5 decades.   As to public transit, I think that  vey many of the systems in places like New York, Atlanta  or D.C. only happened when their populations reached about the size of Nashville currently.  The kind of "vast public transit"  does not evolve as a natural result of a city's growth.   The universalty of the personal automobile made the suburbs possible.  The bus system was largely relegated to less privileged citizens and suffered from that image here in Nashville.   I doubt that a new system would change that attitude here.  The suburbs were created by the interstates and radial corridors feeding them. They were necessary for interstate commerce and Nashville is a natural hub.  I don't see a great deal of difference as you envision without them.  I prefer the loop system to the Atlanta system of huge corridors slicing the city like I 75 and I 85.    This is just an opinion of an old coot.

I'm of the opinion that if we didn’t have the downtown interstate loop…it would be nice.  Maybe 440 would be sufficient.  However…the fact that we DO have the interstate loop through downtown, it should be updated.  We should cap the west side between the Gulch and Midtown…and also find a better, more pedestrian-friendly way to connect the east bank with East Nash.  Also…while we’re at it, connect Germantown with the TSU area across the interstate better…as well as SoBro with WeHo.

[markhollin]

NDOT's new bike lane sweeper has been given a name via a contest, and "Demonbroomin" is the winner.  : )
 

[samsonh]

This is related to the now deleted personal attacks from the parking/car debate, ran across this chart today. This speaks volumes as to how much Nashville prioritizes cars to the detriment of people.

Edited July 19, 2022 by samsonh
Spelling!

[Bos2Nash]

I'm just gonna quote myself here from February 2021. No matter how unrooted this solution would be haha.

On 2/3/2021 at 12:55 PM, Bos2Nash said:

I saw CityLab's post on instagram about this and considered posting about it. My mind also thought about which portion of highway could downtown remove effectively while maintaining certain vital connections. From an idealistic standpoint it would be great if we could remove the innerloop altogether and have 440 be the closest highway to the downtown core. That is unrealistic though. 

Here is my proposal based on the goal of dismantling our urban highways:

RED = Re-align and improve the 24/65 corridor that divides East Nashville from the East Bank. This was my first thought for a teardown, but if this stretch of freeway was to be removed, there isn't a ton of connections that can be re-created. Plus with developments such as River North, the redevelopment of the Truck Stop, Nissan Stadium Redevelopment and the future for PSC Metals, those will all be big money developments that will turn their back on the low income folks anyways.

Magenta = 440 and 40 become the same road and circulate around downtown to provie East/West connection. This would require a massive re-configuration of the 24/440/40 interchange along with Murfreesboro Road, but moving the East/West traffic out of downtown would be great.

BLUE = Removal of Interstate 65 extension. This provide the best chance to reconnect a decimated part of the city. North Nashville needs to have the street grid re-connected and those historic neighborhoods need to be woven back into the every day life of the city. The preferred route for drivers coming from the west and heading north would be to take Briley Parkway (see blue in second image).

GREEN = Removal of Interstate 65 from 440 to the Inner Loop. Redirect traffic east on 440/40 to connect to points north or east on 440/40 for points west. This will sow WeHo back together with the likes of Melrose and Edgehill.

CYAN = Removal of the inner loop entirely! There has been talk about the capping of this section, but that is unrealistic because the amount of ventilation and infrastructure that be needed (think Big Dig)

Obviously this would be a massive overhaul of our interstate system and would take someone an unfathomable amount of political power, but the benefits for our city - I think - would be tenfold. Sewing neighborhoods back together, expanding the plauisble footprint of our core and also remove alot of vehicle traffic out of the core. Not to mention the amount of land that could become available for actual taxable land that I'm sure the state would be able to solicit some big money for!

Here would would be an idea of what the core could look like with the inner loops whited out. Unrealistic in the grand scheme, but really not so far-fetched that it seems impossible.

 

 

  

 

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:00 AM, samsonh said:

This is related to the now deleted personal attacks from the parking/car debate, ran across this chart today. This speaks volumes as to how much Nashville prioritizes cars to the detriment of people.

That chart is fascinating. You're more likely to be killed in an car-related incident in Nashville than you are to be murdered in all but the most dangerous couple of areas in the US (namely Atlanta, Baltimore, New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis, and Jackson).  Maybe there's a really, really big problem with how we approach roads, driving, and transportation in Tennessee.

[gets on soap box] We have *got* to stop treating driving on public roads as some sort of God-given inherent right and tighten up licensing, enforcement, and penalties. People need safe, convenient, and reliable options for getting around other than being in or surrounded by two-ton death traps. [falls off soap box]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:47 AM, Bos2Nash said:

I'm just gonna quote myself here from February 2021. No matter how unrooted this solution would be haha.

  

 

Maybe it's equally unrealistic, but just removing 40/65 west and south of downtown and widening 440 would go a long way to giving Nashville a better beltway that would get through traffic out of the CBD. Caps over the interstate would help re-connect the northern neighborhoods and take steps to undoing the damage caused by their construction.

[BnaBreaker]

2 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

That chart is fascinating. You're more likely to be killed in an car-related incident in Nashville than you are to be murdered in all but the most dangerous couple of areas in the US (namely Atlanta, Baltimore, New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis, and Jackson).  Maybe there's a really, really big problem with how we approach roads, driving, and transportation in Tennessee.

[gets on soap box] We have *got* to stop treating driving on public roads as some sort of God-given inherent right and tighten up licensing, enforcement, and penalties. People need safe, convenient, and reliable options for getting around other than being in or surrounded by two-ton death traps. [falls off soap box]

Maybe it's equally unrealistic, but just removing 40/65 west and south of downtown and widening 440 would go a long way to giving Nashville a better beltway that would get through traffic out of the CBD. Caps over the interstate would help re-connect the northern neighborhoods and take steps to undoing the damage caused by their construction.

Let's start murdering more and change those numbers around!  We can do it if we try Nashville!  I believe in you!  Wait... I think I may have misunderstood your message...

[rookzie]

1 hour ago, BnaBreaker said:

Let's start murdering more and change those numbers around!  We can do it if we try Nashville!  I believe in you!  Wait... I think I may have misunderstood your message...

Well, we're on a roll ─ not on car tires, but in the murder and assault rates.

I used to take note of the monthly-turned-weekly shootings aired on the local media.  But anymore, I've almost become oblivious if not callous to daily ─ even twice daily (or more) ─ shootings that now seem to have become the new norm, in this city alone.

[Nashvillain]

4 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

 

[gets on soap box] We have *got* to stop treating driving on public roads as some sort of God-given inherent right and tighten up licensing, enforcement, and penalties. People need safe, convenient, and reliable options for getting around other than being in or surrounded by two-ton death traps. [falls off soap box]

It's ironic that people think moving their families to the burbs will keep them safer, but your kids are more likely to die in an auto accident than they are to suffer random or targeted violence in the inner cities. This has been true for decades and remains true today (in all but a handful of places) even with the uptick in the murder rate the last few years. Keep in mind, about the same number of Americans are killed in road accidents as those who are killed by guns (which includes accidents, suicides, and homicides). 

As for your soap box sentiments, blaming traffic violence on individual behaviors isn't a productive way to reduce traffic violence. Rather, systematically redesigning our roadways would have a profound impact on roadway violence. See the Netherlands. 

[AsianintheNations]

My post on this in the bits/pieces thread got buried in the political convention debacle, but it's probably a better fit here anyway. I noticed that Charter Amendment #4 on the August 4 ballot is about officially including the Nashville DOT in the city's charter in place of the Dept of Public Works (minus garbage collection I guess), which seems to have de facto occurred a while ago. Has this restructuring made much of a difference in terms of the city's approach to its infrastructure? The language in this amendment, save for the word "multimodal infrastructure" in the title, still seems car/road-centric or otherwise vague to me. Also, if for some reason this amendment gets voted down, is the city then obligated to return to the original Dept of Public Works?

[Nathan_in_DC]

As for your soap box sentiments, blaming traffic violence on individual behaviors isn't a productive way to reduce traffic violence. Rather, systematically redesigning our roadways would have a profound impact on roadway violence. See the Netherlands. 

I agree, hence the second sentence of my soap box.

I think increased enforcement and higher standards of entry for drivers are a part of the solution. It's comically easy to get a driver's license in the US, and it's one of the reasons our road fatality rates are the worst in the developed world. We also don't effectively deter bad behavior through enforcement (3 years living in the UK taught me that there is zero reason there shouldn't be photo enforcement on roads everywhere). But, we also don't design infrastructure appropriately for the settings or give people real options other than driving.


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[japan]

Interesting.

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-build-trains

[PaulChinetti]

So many links in that article thanks!

I always feel like any new project that gets built must be perfect when it's built. Like, if it's not NYC or London level of good. Then it's not worth doing and everyone shoots it down.

 

I'd love to see an airport to music city center line. People see the benefits. Then another line, and another, and so on.

[MontanaGuy]

19 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I'd love to see an airport to music city center line. People see the benefits. Then another line, and another, and so on.

So would I.  I don't think we'll be able to build a large complex mass transit system all in one go, we'll have to put in a single line that would attract riders which would gradually shift public opinion to demand more once it's shown to be effective.

[GregH]

I am repeating myself in here but Airport-Downtown seems like a big mistake if you're trying to build support locally. How am I supposed to benefit from that as a local? Downtown would be the worst-possible starting place for my trip to the airport. The only thing I can think of is maybe wishful thinking about reduced traffic on I-40 but I think that's a stretch. If you want locals to like transit you need transit a lot of locals will use a lot and realistically that means something going from somewhere close to where a lot of people live to somewhere close to where a lot of those people work.

[PaulChinetti]

That's a good point.

Maybe starting with the WeGo Star and actually making it's stations nice places to be, ie work/live would be a good start. 

Upzone everything around the suburban stations in a half mile radius. And let that take off. 

• Donelson
• Hermitage
• Mount Juliet
• Martha
• Hamilton Springs
• Lebanon

[GregH]

Yeah I feel like that's potential low-hanging fruit. Does the Star compete with freight traffic? I'm wondering, if the passenger volume was there for more-regular service, would it encounter challenges with freight conflicts. 

[MontanaGuy]

1 hour ago, GregH said:

I am repeating myself in here but Airport-Downtown seems like a big mistake if you're trying to build support locally. How am I supposed to benefit from that as a local? Downtown would be the worst-possible starting place for my trip to the airport.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I know that after living in Denver that my friends who still live there  are thrilled that you can now take a train from DIA to downtown.  Lots of people travel for work or leisure and anything that can reduce the headache and high costs of driving to the airport and parking in an expensive spot would be greatly appreciated.  I just spent $130 on parking at the Nashville airport for just a short trip to Seattle and by the way Seattle has a monorail that goes from SeaTac to downtown too!

[Deepdish53]

16 hours ago, GregH said:

I am repeating myself in here but Airport-Downtown seems like a big mistake if you're trying to build support locally. How am I supposed to benefit from that as a local? Downtown would be the worst-possible starting place for my trip to the airport. The only thing I can think of is maybe wishful thinking about reduced traffic on I-40 but I think that's a stretch. If you want locals to like transit you need transit a lot of locals will use a lot and realistically that means something going from somewhere close to where a lot of people live to somewhere close to where a lot of those people work.

I think one thing that could really improve the utility of an Airport-Downtown line for locals is to make sure there are a couple of stops along the way. The most likely route will be along Murfreesboro Pike - adding some stops would help the transformation to a more pedestrian/transit-friendly corridor as developers are already starting to buy up land out there. It would also have the added benefit of providing some additional jump-on points for locals to use as a way to get into downtown or to the airport cheaper/easier.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Deepdish53