The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[rookzie]

This comment is not meant to be an endorsement of any particular candidate.

 

That said, Linda Eskind Rebrovick's idea of a "smart grid" traffic management system is much-needed here.  Coordination of traffic lights, with traffic cameras, in-ground and pole mounted speed and congestion monitors, etc., would be highly beneficial for the CBD / Midtown / West End area.  This likely wouldn't cost any more than the AMP was supposed to and would provide more benefit for more people.  It's surprising to me that the Nashville area does not have a traffic management system already.

 

It's not surprising to many of us who daily have first-hand witnessed and experienced nothing except inaction in improving management of the physical plant.  This for years, if not decades.  Yes, there have been a few improvements with respect to rush periods along some of the arterials, but absolutely nothing that would be considered beyond marginal for the region as a whole, as far as navigation is concerned, once within the city surface roads.

 

The solution over time has to consist of both traffic management and mass/rapid transit, as they are not really mutually exclusive, and this late in the game, there is great latitude for such a mix of improvements, despite the preponderance of narrow and misaligned streets.

-==-

Edited April 10, 2015 by rookzie

[RonCamp]

It's not surprising to many of us who daily have first-hand witnessed and experienced nothing except inaction in improving management of the physical plant.  This for years, if not decades.  Yes, there have been a few improvements with respect to rush periods along some of the arterials, but absolutely nothing that would be considered beyond marginal for the region as a whole, as far as navigation, once within the city surface roads.

 

The solution over time has to consist of both traffic management and mass/rapid transit, as they are not really mutually exclusive, and this late in the game, there is great latitude for such a mix of improvements, despite the preponderance of narrow and misaligned streets.

-==-

 

I'm obviously much newer to the city than many of you, so I completely defer to you and others with more seniority regarding your first point.  Hopefully we've at least reached a time where there are more people clamoring more loudly for improvements.

 

Regarding your second point, I completely agree.  Traffic management systems and mass/rapid transit both need to happen.  I guess I should have said that more clearly; the gist of what I was trying to get across was just that the former can be accomplished more quickly and more cheaply than the latter.  

[rookzie]

I'm obviously much newer to the city than many of you, so I completely defer to you and others with more seniority regarding your first point.  Hopefully we've at least reached a time where there are more people clamoring more loudly for improvements.

 

Regarding your second point, I completely agree.  Traffic management systems and mass/rapid transit both need to happen.  I guess I should have said that more clearly; the gist of what I was trying to get across was just that the former can be accomplished more quickly and more cheaply than the latter.  

 

Well, thanks, but you might as well have lived "forever", around the likes of Nashville, with truth in that statement.  As that conclusion can be said with perhaps most comparably-sized U.S. cities, the one thing that you bring to the table is objectivity, in the sense that, for not having lived in Nashville "that" long, you can weigh the parameters with your observations, without bias, as a more recent "sight unseen", unlike me, who has dealt with it so long (along with having lived in some other regions as well, many years ago), that my reactions have tended to be influenced by personal feelings, frequent disgust, and increasing levels of tolerance intolerance (or an increasing lack of patience).

 

I think that the root of my "evil" is not so much the absence of a deployed comprehensive traffic mgmt.system, but rather the lack of an effective alternative to benefit many choice- or transit-dependent riders, whose travels, commuting or otherwise, are subjected entirely to the same delays which result from that same lack of traffic-congestion mitigation provision.  That's just it.  We don't have time to wait for a currently unfundable separated-RoW transit network to be started, and even those with "more seniority", as you say (codgers?), along with most anyone else, would agree that much more can be accomplished up front with what we already have, in terms of pavement and rubber.  Several members have previously expressed some form of this in their posts.  Just read whatwhat's recent post in the Transportation Issues thread (whatwhat, on 09 Apr 2015 - 2:39, #179).  People like him/her are who form the basis of DT, and they are just crying (if not "dying") for a solution.

-==-

Edited April 11, 2015 by rookzie

[farm_boy]

^^^ You are COMPLETELY wrong (respectfully). The pole bench works very, very well, providing elderly, pregnant mothers, etc a place to rest. In fact, this is BETTER because you don't have a "jerk" occupying a seat forcing the elderly, etc to stand and is always MUCH CLEANER than a bench. It is not the role of MTA to build homeless shelters.

 

Please try using the bus stop before you rant !!! Thanks!

[BnaBreaker]

^^^ You are COMPLETELY wrong (respectfully). The pole bench works very, very well, providing elderly, pregnant mothers, etc a place to rest. In fact, this is BETTER because you don't have a "jerk" occupying a seat forcing the elderly, etc to stand and is always MUCH CLEANER than a bench. It is not the role of MTA to build homeless shelters.

 

Please try using the bus stop before you rant !!! Thanks!

 

I'm not sure what it is you're referring to as a "pole bench," but I was responding directly to the suggestion that all benches be stripped in favor of railing to lean against.  But hey, if you've found a way for you to sit AND stick it to the homeless at the same time, then by all means, you go and chase that most noble of pursuits.  It's high time they learned what it's like to have REAL problems!  The bourgeoisie shouldn't have to be exposed to those vermin, amirite?!  High five!

 

Also, while I use Chicago's bus and heavy rail systems practically every single day (ironically, I'm typing this while on the train), and while I'm not exactly sure what one's frequency of mass transit usage has to do with how valid or invalid their position is, I thank you for your suggestion that I gain more experience with 'bus stops' prior to developing an opinion.  Maybe then I'll get to your level of expertise and learn just how awful and disgusting those dirty bums...err...I mean, "loitering," really is. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by BnaBreaker

[farm_boy]

I'm not sure what it is you're referring to as a "pole bench," but I was responding directly to the suggestion that all benches be stripped in favor of railing to lean against.  But hey, if you've found a way for you to sit AND stick it to the homeless at the same time, then by all means, you go and chase that most noble of pursuits.  It's high time they learned what it's like to have REAL problems!  The bourgeoisie shouldn't have to be exposed to those vermin, amirite?!  High five!

 

Also, while I use Chicago's bus and heavy rail systems practically every single day (ironically, I'm typing this while on the train), and while I'm not exactly sure what one's frequency of mass transit usage has to do with how valid or invalid their position is, I thank you for your suggestion that I gain more experience with 'bus stops' prior to developing an opinion.  Maybe then I'll get to your level of expertise and learn just how awful and disgusting those dirty bums...err...I mean, "loitering," really is. 

 

"pole bench" ... well, everyone is calling it different names, I just put a couple of the names together. I believe that "leaning rail" may be the correct term, but not 100% sure. The only complaint I could have is that I think it is a little too high for shorter people.

 

Well, I can't speak for bus stops in Chicago, but I can tell you much about the bus stops in Nashville. And I can tell you that the new bus shelters are welcome - at least by me. There does not appear to be issues with "bums" sleeping in the new shelters. But I can tell you that anyplace that has a bench .... well ... not very welcoming here in Nashville. But hey, that is just my personal experience when riding the bus for the past 30-40 years.

 

But most importantly, this is not a conservative/liberal, political, "stick in to the homeless" issue. Please take the political views to the coffee shop. The most "noble" role of MTA is to provide for transit, not housing.

 

 

**Maybe we should petition MTA to allow unused buses to be parked at the riverfront for the homeless to sleep in overnight???

[markhollin]

This is the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that should be considered when looking at mass transit for the future.  I think a smaller version of this could work on lines along the 3 main interstate corridors, and possibly a few other paths.  Obviously there are challenges to be considered like bridges (would the track need to be 30-40 feet in the air, thus meaning rather high stations, or could it have slow rises and falls in its design similar to a roller coaster?), what kind of terminal space would there be downtown, issues with bursts of air pushed out from the turbines, etc.  

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=880628318649999&pnref=story

Edited April 12, 2015 by markhollin

[MLBrumby]

Don't know what to make of this... as it's ostensibly deferred maintenance (replacement) for four bridges along the central stretch of I-40. From the Tennessean...  http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson%20/2015/04/14/major-changes-for-i-40-in-downtown-nashville/25775353/

 

Yet... i wonder if this isn't more good-money-after-bad to patch an overburdened stretch of Interstate that appears (to me anyway) to need a major redesign... or have any of these TDOT officials attempted to drive from Charlotte to the airport on a weekday afternoon? 

 

[nashvillwill]

I guess this means we can put our dream of a cap over than part of the interstate back up on the shelf for another 20-30 years.

[RonCamp]

I guess this means we can put our dream of a cap over than part of the interstate back up on the shelf for another 20-30 years.

 

I wouldn't say that for sure.  The best area for a cap is from Church to 12th Ave.  This project does not include any spending or work in that area - it's just a closure of that portion to make the detour simpler (closed from 40 on the west end to 65 on the east).  

Edited April 15, 2015 by RonCamp

[rookzie]

I guess this means we can put our dream of a cap over than part of the interstate back up on the shelf for another 20-30 years.

 

Actually, though, a part of that succession of bridges forms essentially 2 short viaducts (and an earthen berm) from just north of Herman to just south of Clinton where a second berm begins just before another bridge over Jo Johnston (followed with yet another berm and the bridge at Charlotte).  The bridges over the NWRR and Herman, as well as the one passing over the CSX and Clinton span broader stretches than most other standard interstate land bridges, so they present a time-sharing challenge, with passage underneath as well as overhead.  The replacement activity likely will cause for more disruption on the surface streets below, than on the bridge decks themselves, as heavy equipment and work-area separation likely will be require staging on the surface roadways below, and they likely will remain in place longer than what might be needed above, for the sake of minimizing the detour time along the freeway.   This likely will require detouring of MTA's Nº 19 Herman bus route,which in turn will bring delays caused by the use of the existing traffic signal at Jo Johnston and 12th, unless the detour instead is via 11th, Clinton, and 12th across the tracks (instead of around and under).  If a CSX train happens to be passing, then that will further impact the delay caused by a detour, because the bus then would have to travel to 18th Ave to pass over the tracks, right in heart of th MLK Magnet school zone.  The thing about this is that those who stand to become the most impacted by any MTA detour in that part of North Nashville would be the many who depend on it between 11th and 17th, mostly those in the Andrew Jackson Courts public housing (which will fill up a bus in a heartbeat), the workers at Goodwill Industries (10th and Herman), and the students who depend on that single route which serves Pearl-Cohn and McKissack schools.  Those relying on that bus service along that portion of Herman, would then have to walk a distance of about 2 blocks (farther than they currently would pass, and then across that rather heavily traversed CSX line, sometimes stopped along those tracks.  From time to time I have witnessed pedestrians at 12th, 16th, and 17th climb over the coupling between two freight cars on those stopped trains, further compounding their own risk, with end-of-car cushioning coupling gear sometimes telescoping without notice and crushing a trespasser's limb in an instant (if he or she then doesn't fall to the rail below).   I seriously doubt that any accommodation will be worked out to lessen the adverse effect on this issue.

 

There also will need to be some coordination with the NWRR and the CSX railroads, since their livelihoods depend on moving freight, particularly that along the higher-revenue volume CSX, a Class-1 RR, which moves a lot of intermodal (container) freight and automobile carrier racks along that Bruceton Sub-Division.  They also daily must service Cockrill Bend from that route, and given the fact that over the decades it has reduced the number of parallel tracks, including sidings and spurs, from 4 down to 1, some time-sharing arrangement must be handled with the company for dispatching train movements as efficiently as possible, with the bridge fast-fixes over that particular span (CSX and Clinton St.).

 

Of course, this is just the "fastfix" and has absolutely nothing to do with any prospective concept of capping the freeway trunk, except for the fact that the coffers for funding likely would get depleted several times over before such a project would ever get underway.

-==-

Edited April 17, 2015 by rookzie

[rookzie]

I wouldn't say that for sure.  The best area for a cap is from Church to 12th Ave.  This project does not include any spending or work in that area - it's just a closure of that portion to make the detour simpler (closed from 40 on the west end to 65 on the east).  

 

I would not fully agree with the statement of the best cap being from Church to 12th.  For the benefit of the districts that really have suffered the brunt of the freeway dissection of the 1960s (and where I partially grew up), I feel that UTgrad09's long-thought-out concept of the two separate caps would be best in order, with the first one built being the one from Jefferson St in the Fisk - Hope Gardens area of North Nashville.  I say this because I believe that socio-economically that area is in far more need of restorative attention following the mass removal and fracture of North Nashville as a whole, one reason that it remains such to this day.  I speak as a resident who has spent between 1/2 and 2/3s of my life in Nashville, with about a half of that  time in the North, so I have witnessed the change during my 48 years of having a full driver's license.  While I do not discount the projected benefit of capping Church to 12th South, I believe that more stands to be gained by handling the revitalization of the northern gap first, as a primary measure of setting the stage for development.

-==-

[Hey_Hey]

How would a cap work on the areas outside of the 12th to Broadway stretch?  That's the only area that is below grade and that could be capped without doing A LOT of earth removal. 

[RonCamp]

How would a cap work on the areas outside of the 12th to Broadway stretch?  That's the only area that is below grade and that could be capped without doing A LOT of earth removal. 

 

Yeah, that was my thinking as well.  Klyde Warren worked in Dallas because the entirety of the capped section of Woodall Rogers was below grade.  If construction had also required sinking the highway in addition to building a cap the price tag would have been significantly higher.

 

A great article on Klyde Warren's construction: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2012/special-report-the-park/how-klyde-warren-park-was-built

 

Edited to fix (hopefully) the link.  

Edit #2:  The forum's autolink function seems to break the link.  Once you get to D Magazine's error page, click "try your request again" to be linked to the article.  Sorry about that.  

Edited April 15, 2015 by RonCamp

[Vrtigo]

Even if they capped solely the below-grade portion, that would still be an enormous improvement upon what is there now, and would satisfy most of us on this board...

[rookzie]

How would a cap work on the areas outside of the 12th to Broadway stretch?  That's the only area that is below grade and that could be capped without doing A LOT of earth removal. 

 

We're not necessarily speaking of the degree of work required, but rather the concept and the intended purpose of the initiative.  I'm basing my focus on what UTgrad09 has conceived, and the fact that he has perceived that the north cap arguably would be value-added, for the sake of undoing some of the damage created in the past.  The north cap in that part of the inner city can help to restore connectivity.

 

If you look, you definitely can see a swath of region between Jefferson and the point near Jackson and Ireland Streets definitely is below grade sufficiently to cap off ─ that is a sufficient amount of spanable surface area to re-establish an appreciable level of continuity in that neighborhood.  That's a goal and intent of the capping project as UTgrad09 has presented, not merely to allow more recreational, green-space, and commercialism within the area south of Broadway.  This a concept with multiple ramifications for a more comprehensive, far-reaching spectrum of purposes, rather than just connect the south side.  On the north side, the roadways of Meharry, Phillips, Jackson, and Ireland were literally chopped off, which in turn has all but severed the Fisk area from Hope Gardens.  I feel that each of those streets needs to be reconnected as they had been during pre-1968 days, and there potentially exists a chance for a vast level of economic impact for that area, far more dramatic from what it has been rendered in its state of blight.  It's been bad enough, not just for that part of the city, but also East, South, West, and in the areas affected by Ellington and Briley Pkwys on the northeast, all having far too few bridges and underpasses, and creating more harm than good for the urban areas.

 

The land-hungry interchange of I-40 and I-65, just north of Jefferson, along with the freeway split in three ways from that point, is additional testimony to the adverse affects of the compound state of physical divisions within that region extremely slow (if unresponsive) to redevelopment.  But it also has affected accessibility, not only with the severance of those 4 streets (not to mention what it did to Scovel Street just north of Jefferson), but also the with the compound effect of forcing all mobility along other surface roadways to serve as well (the effect known as "You can't get there from here").  MLBrumby has just given testimony in the First Tenn. Ballpark thread, of just how bad Jefferson Street constantly gets backed up west of 8th Ave, and much of the problem is due to having too few east-west connections exist in that area across the interstate, along with the fact that Jefferson is only 2 lanes wide with a center-turn lane.   Add to that, the feeding to that frenzy from 26th and 28th Avenues at the part of Jefferson west of the gulch area.  In the distant future, a cap might even benefit the area between 14th and 18th Avenues.  The long-term effects of providing with at least a cap on that smaller portion of the interstate north of CSX (actually north of Herman St.) may not necessarily measured, but they can be extrapolated.

-==-

[Neigeville2]

Turning an above grade highway into a capped freeway with a park above it is what the infamous Big Dig in Boston was.  No project like that is likely to be undertaken anywhere again, especially not in a town like this where a lot of folks don't understand the concept investing in infrastructure for the future.  

 

Fortunately we have a huge swath of canyonized interstate, from the 65 merge to around NES, and then I guess a little more further north.  I'd start by doing a section near 12th and getting the developers to pitch in a portion of the costs, maybe designating a portion of the tax revenue from the area like they did with the Gulch pedestrian bridge.  It's going to have to be done in stages and there's going to have to be a funding from many sources. 

[rookzie]

Turning an above grade highway into a capped freeway with a park above it is what the infamous Big Dig in Boston was.  No project like that is likely to be undertaken anywhere again, especially not in a town like this where a lot of folks don't understand the concept investing in infrastructure for the future.  

 

Fortunately we have a huge swath of canyonized interstate, from the 65 merge to around NES, and then I guess a little more further north.  I'd start by doing a section near 12th and getting the developers to pitch in a portion of the costs, maybe designating a portion of the tax revenue from the area like they did with the Gulch pedestrian bridge.  It's going to have to be done in stages and there's going to have to be a funding from many sources. 

 

I really don't feel that any serious gravity of consideration and headway will be made during the next 30 years (even after then) on an such capping on the Interstate in any part of Nashville, any more than the discussion which occurred on removing parts of the freeway from DT (or its interchanges alone) ever got off the ground among Metro decision-makers during the early 2000s.  While some cities have claimed some success achieved with having actually done that (San Fran's Embarcadero Freeway, helped in part by the Loma Prieta Earthquake of 1989; Milwaukee's Park East Frwy in 2002), it's highly doubtful that this ever would come to fruition during my lifetime (postmortem? very likely).

 

Additionally, for longevity of infrastructure and safety, I would take freeway removal over the prospect of capping, since capping induces the need of heavy stabilization against thermal, aging, natural elements, and seismic activity for many, many years beyond what would be expected of a standard bridge, since much more is at stake, let alone having to risk the liability of catastrophic failure due to engineering or contracting inconsistencies in construction (Big Dig).  I just don't foresee either of these being progressed through the tunnel of politics with the current atmosphere.

-==-

Edited April 16, 2015 by rookzie

[L'burgnative]

How much y'all hate interstates I do not understand; I would love to trade our infrastructure here in Huntsville for yours.  Our wheel only has one spoke so y'all would love it.  After a couple of weeks driving around town with only one spur and the rest being secondary's y'all would be asking for your interstates back real quick.  Saying that; does Nashville need alternatives (Transit system)?  Yes.  Has I-65, I-40, I-24 and the downtown loop done more harm then good for the city and downtown? No way!  It's my opinion without them Nashville wouldn't be the hub it's become; Nashville is within a six hour drive to more major cities than any other city in the U.S.  Without good access to downtown the interstates and the loop provides, it's my opinion downtown would be one of the deadest spots in the city.  The loop provides you with a 360 degree view of downtown; what's to hate about that?  I see no reason an Interstate would create a barrier anymore then RR tracks,  and I don't see anyone here complaining about the barrier the tracks provide between the CBD/Sobro and the Gulch, and those tracks are four times as wide as I-40/I-65.  I'm done ranting, so pick me apart.

Edited April 16, 2015 by L'burgnative

[BnaBreaker]

I would but I don't have four hours.

[rookzie]

How much y'all hate interstates I do not understand; I would love to trade our infrastructure here in Huntsville for yours.  Our wheel only has one spoke so y'all would love it.  After a couple of weeks driving around town with only one spur and the rest being secondary's y'all would be asking for your interstates back real quick.  Saying that; does Nashville need alternatives (Transit system)?  Yes.  Has I-65, I-40, I-24 and the downtown loop done more harm then good for the city and downtown? No way!  It's my opinion without them Nashville wouldn't be the hub it's become; Nashville is within a six hour drive to more major cities than any other city in the U.S.  Without good access to downtown the interstates and the loop provides, it's my opinion downtown would be one of the deadest spots in the city.  The loop provides you with a 360 degree view of downtown; what's to hate about that?  I see no reason an Interstate would create a barrier anymore then RR tracks,  and I don't see anyone here complaining about the barrier the tracks provide between the CBD/Sobro and the Gulch, and those tracks are four times as wide as I-40/I-65.  I'm done ranting, so pick me apart.

 

I would but I don't have four hours.

 

"...but I don't have four hours".

 

But I do.

 

I think you totally missed the boat (train?) on what I mentioned about the interstates, and I really have not detected from anyone else, the belief that the interstates are not needed at all.  We have been speaking specifically of the capping of the freeway in certain parts, not eliminating them.  They do have their purpose, and a majority likely would consider them at least “beneficial”, when they can adequately serve provide the intended function, within their capacities of being true “EXPRESSways, as the name implies.  When the interchange ramps and the surface streets cannot function in combination to convey the movement of motor vehicles without constant and prolonged backup, then the freeways (or tollways) no longer can provide “express ways”, and more often than not, such retardation of traffic movement often becomes much slower than that on surface roads, provided that the traffic on the surface roads is not feeding into or away from these clogged expressway ramps somewhere down the line.  Hell, I’ll be one of the first to attest the fact that we do need expressways.  You might not have had to ride with your parents or to drive from Nashville to Asheville and Greensboro NC as I had for some 60 years; or from Nashv’l to DC, or to Detroit, or to Texarkana; or even to Chattanooga and Atlanta ─ all on the old Federal Highway system, before interstate development had become well underway.  There weren’t many if any bypasses around towns and cities, and driving along these 2-lane (or “suicide” 3-lane) “unlimited access” roadways would (and still does) take forever to go from point to point, not to mention hairpin turns on roads like US-64, US-70/US-25W, US-11,11W,11/E, US-58, and US-421, although that’s only a tiny fraction of such roads across the nation.  I would not trade the interstates back for those roads, except for now and then sauntering down memory lane (as I have done to Huntsville)

I don’t know about Huntsville, and I admit not having to deal with driving to or within that city, since several times during mid-1979, on my way to and from Gurley, Al.  I know that it has grown quite a bit since then (to which I had chosen to take US-431, a straight shot from Nashv’l’s Hillsboro Pk, if one doesn't mind the stop and go).  Most towns have changed since then, of course (even Dodge City, KS has gotten worse for driving). But the very fact that interstates are designed (or at least purposed) to handle advanced capacity of traffic at medium to high speeds inherently is their disadvantage, when they interface with surface streets where they discharge or take on that huge volume of traffic.  Add a succession of such interchange ramps separated by a very short distance, like Nashville’s DT I-40 and the east bank I-24 along with several points of nearby interchange with I-65 to form the inner loop, and you have the “clogged aorta” syndrome, in a ring.  During the afternoon rush periods when leaving DT, you're basically surrounded and "trapped" all around with traffic passing under or over the interstate at some point relatively nearby, with most non-interchange roads filled with cars headed eventually to thread their ways to the interstate at some other point.  This is the point at which the interstate consistently does more harm than good.  Just observe the interstate ring loop between 3:30 and 5:00, if you happen not to agree.

Speaking of rings, I don’t link interstate inner-loops being downtown with liveliness in activity, so if the CBD is “dead”, then it’s not because of lack of direct access by freeway.  (just go to one of my family-member’s city of Newport News, Va., I-664) Even with today’s sets of business models, compared to a hundred years ago, CBD’s don’t have to have a network of interstate dump-offs passing through the heart, just to make downtown lively, as not being lively is brought on by other reasons of economics.  Places like Nashville, Indy, and Cincy indeed are well fed with commercial activity with great multi-interstate highway access, but that does not mean that they have to dump off directly into the CBD for that to have occurred.  Unless one lives downtown (and most citizens of a metro area do not), she or he likely will tell you that they loathe dealing with that traffic on the interstate, and if they’re quite familiar with traffic patterns overall, then depending on where they live in a region, they’ll often op to take surface roadways during rush, if they can avoid it, and these people are not in a minority.  Of course, too, if the Interstates have chopped off all but a handful of under-and overpasses, like Nashville’s east bank, then people on the surface roads are “trapped” into crowding into the very few crossings available, for east-west connectivity.  In general, the outdated urban portions of the interstates, conceived during a period of time before navigation came to depend on the interstates, have created the most barriers to movements, much in part because they were made with way-way too few bridges or overpasses for unimpeded local (surface road) passage.  Bridges and underpasses cost lot of money, not only to construct but to maintain, just as the country as a whole has become aware of, so generally you don’t find capped or aerial (viaduct) interstates except in relatively few urban areas.  Consequentially that’s what adds to the partitioning of previously established neighborhoods.

 

So you want a 360-degree view of downtown?  I’d suggest you take that to the Capital Beltway in Md and Va (I-495) – all 64 miles of it – where you’d have a nice extended-time view of a gigantic circumscribed area.  Unless instead you’re a passenger, most drivers around Nashville’s inner lop don’t have time to be watching the view of downtown, lest they plow into the back of a creeping bus or something, held up by a road condition ahead, and that’s normally without a wreck somewhere.  The only time I ever have an opportunity for such a view of the DT has been when I’m at a dead standstill with too much time on my hands not to look at it, and then it’s usually only for wishing that I could be over "yonder" on a surface street instead.   And during a given weekday, I constantly receive these e-mail notifications from a dispatch office (where I work) that an incident has been reported by our TDOT (typically an overturned vehicle or crash), as a courtesy to those being affected.  Seems like every 90-min to 2 hours, one happens that will somehow (directly or otherwise) affect the flow of traffic on the central interstate system.  So as far as the 360-view is concerned, I choose to save that sensation of going ‘round and around for the Tilt-a-Whirl ride, as at least that puts me into a laughing stupor.

As far as the subject of train tracks is concerned, then except what you probably see when you drive in from the south on I-65, which probably is CSX Radnor Yard and its approaches, and perhaps the gulch area DT (the tracks of which are mostly gone), you are not likely to see any railroads around Nashville that are even close to being as wide as an urban Interstate around these parts.  Most of the railways have been reduced to a single track with a short or long parallel siding in most cases (if a siding at all), and even the RoW itself seldom ever is as wide as that of an interstate.  And I don’t know about you, but with railroads having mostly acquired their RoW by land-grant, long before any of us were born, I’ve never seen a new railroad laid that just "ups" and cuts through an urban area, where none had existed before.  Cities and towns have grown around these kinds of barriers, the vast majority of which had existed long before most buildings which remain standing today were ever conceived.  The railroads themselves generally helped to form the cities through which they pass, historically during an extended period of history, when employment and industry heavily depended on the rails, for both freight and passenger movements as primary transportation (and that had still been the status quo during the early part of my lifetime).

Although you spoke about the Gulch with its width as a barrier, rather than other local railroad RoW, the Gulch was never considered a barrier per se, as the late ‘60s interstate construction just west of it had (has) been considered.  That area used to bring in a lot of activity, with people dressing up and going places and with many nearby businesses between North Capitol and Ft. Negley on the south side and which depended on the rails, and even now the gulch has burgeoned with an explosion of activity in being transformed into a mixed-use “plateau”, far more than it now serves as a railroad path.  If you have kept up with the evolution of gulch related property since the 1970s, you’d know that it slowly has been sold off as surplus industrial real estate by the owning railroad, CSX, the property being “eaten away on the east with Cummins Station - and Flying Saucer action (former L&N baggage and crew-billeting facility), parking where the train shed had been, the Union Station Hotel, and LifeWay construction beyond mere air rights over much of what once had been the passenger train coach and Pullman yard (between Broad and Church), and the former L&N freight station site, which went to LifeWay and to TSU.  Then you might already would know about the more recent decade of activity on the gulch west side from end to end – all this leaving not much more than 4 or 5 tracks, a far cry from the close to 40 parallel tracks that once lined that property (except for the dozen tracks that still comprise the Kayne Ave. Yard at the extreme south end near 8th Ave.).  So as I see it, the gulch is not such a gulch any longer ─ more like a dinosaur turned into a lizard, as far as the gulch's effect as a separation barrier is concerned.   Even though those conditions have shifted immensely, during the previous 60-something years, most cities long have transformed and progressed around, and in spite of, the railroads, unlike interstates which came into most urban core areas as “displacements” of existing activity with most frequently pre-existing urban housing, followed with dead-ending of most existing streets.

 

Portion of L&N/NC&St.L railroad gulch facility - 1908 until circa 1957 - Nashville

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Edited April 17, 2015 by rookzie

[volsfanwill]

Rookzie, thanks for the image, I overlaid it over google earth images at 75% opacity.  this should give an idea how much of the old rr yard has been lost. 

 

rroverlay by willfry, on Flickr

 

notice the only part of 11th that still aligns is a small stretch from laurel to under demonbreun.

[UTgrad09]

I wonder if the residents of Velocity and Pine St Flats hear the ghosts of trains at night?

[rookzie]

Even if they capped solely the below-grade portion, that would still be an enormous improvement upon what is there now, and would satisfy most of us on this board...

 

Thanks.  That's exactly what I was trying to emphasize, the canyonized portion from that remaining chunk of Scovel to somewhere near Ireland St.

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[nashvillwill]

Rookzie, thanks for the image, I overlaid it over google earth images at 75% opacity. this should give an idea how much of the old rr yard has been lost.

rroverlay by willfry, on Flickr

notice the only part of 11th that still aligns is a small stretch from laurel to under demonbreun.

Thanks for making that graphic. It really helps me comprehend the old map vs current conditions.

I sure would have liked to have seen that wheelhouse.