The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[37206dude]

I sometimes use bike lanes, especially in low-traffic situations just to avoid causing backups to drivers. However, if there is any congestion or it's dark, I take a lane. No need to expound on the reasons, Will and 37206 have done that enough for me as well.

 

Rookzie: That is a problem that has plagued many bike lanes - if they don't get a lot of use, then they turn in to jogging paths and places for jerks to double park. Unfortunately, this is low on the enforcement priority list for Metro PD, so the problem isn't going away any time soon. It's just a matter of time until someone is seriously injured because A) they were biking and had to leave the lane because a driver or jogger was blocking it, or B) they were jogging and were hit by a cyclist or a car.

 

Bike lanes will always get relatively low use if they are poorly designed and also there is no enforcement by police to keep users safe.  That's where we are at now.

 

I outlined it above but briefly if it's not:

safe AND where people need to go AND connected to a network of safe bike routes, the use will always be limited and we will never be getting optimal efficiency from our roads.

 

To crack that cycle, we need protected lanes, but that's not enough.  They need to be on useful routes and they need to be linked together.  That's what it will take. If you do that then use will increase dramatically. The city and the chamber keep talking a big game about this but so far there is not much there there.  They can build that fantastic Gulch-SoBro bridge, it will be nice unto itself, but for transportation if there is not a protected lane from Sobro down towards the riverfront then we are missing a big opportunity to link together the big ticket projects that are currently in the works (11th Ave, SoBro bridge ///////////// Riverfront Park, Davidson Path).  Linking these projects together will add value to them, leaving them disconnected is a lost opportunity and lost value for our infrastructure investments.

 

As far as joggers in the bike lane I really don't see a big problem.  Sidewalks are really not suitable for running on, the surface is too unforgiving and just kills your knees.  All surface streets are shared routes between cars, peds, and bikes.  If there are joggers in the bike lane, then bikes use the traffic lane, and cars slow down a little.

[37206dude]

B) they were jogging and were hit by a cyclist.

 

 

Bike on pedestrian accidents are relatively rare and nowhere near as severe in outcome as auto-bike or auto-ped.

Cyclists are generally traveling much slower than cars, have a clear view in front of them, and are cognizant of people since they themselves are so vulnerable.

It may be an inconvenience and slow some people down a little, but joggers in the bike lane are not among the serious road safety problems we need to address.

 

If you are actually worried about the effect of bikes on pedestrian safety then build safe bike routes so people stop riding on the sidewalk out of fear of being killed in the road. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by 37206dude

[rookzie]

Bike on pedestrian accidents are relatively rare and nowhere near as severe in outcome as auto-bike or auto-ped.

Cyclists are generally traveling much slower than cars, have a clear view in front of them, and are cognizant of people since they themselves are so vulnerable.

It may be an inconvenience and slow some people down a little, but joggers in the bike lane are not among the serious road safety problems we need to address.

 

If you are actually worried about the effect of bikes on pedestrian safety then build safe bike routes so people stop riding on the sidewalk out of fear of being killed in the road. 

 

As a what-if, and only a highly suppositional one at that, I wonder how other municipalities have "managed" bike lanes which at least closely are in compliance to the functional situation and connectivity as you describe above as desirable, or at least which are utilitarian to the extent that they far more fulfill the purpose than do the disjointed excuses-for-bike-lane segments of Nashville.  I would be led to believe that high intended utilization would tend to accompany some kind of enforcement, due to some run-ins between riders and peds, even to the point of gunfire, bike-rage which in this age can be expected.

-==-

[PruneTracy]

I think a complicating factor in all this is that Metro (bless their hearts) is not very good at getting the concept of bike facilities down. They're quick to adopt new innovations, but the execution is lacking. For example, buffered bike lanes are good, yes, but not when it puts the actual lane in the gutter. Sharrows on green pavement is nice also, but not on 45 MPH arterials. And bike boxes are meant to allow left turns from bike lanes, not for cyclists to "jump the queue" through an intersection as was stated at the opening of the new and improved Church Street viaduct.

 

As someone involved in the design and public involvement processes of a couple of Complete Streets projects, I think what most people don't pick up on is that a bike lane is just a regular travel lane with a regulatory exclusion, like an HOV lane. It doesn't mean bikes are confined to that lane. If you're carpooling, you don't have to be in the HOV lane, but it's there for you if you want to use it. Same for bikes, you can use the bike lane or you can stay in the GP lane. (The traffic engineer in me is screaming at you to use the damn bike lane, but I won't fault anyone for not wanting to around here, I wouldn't want to ride in a gutter either.)

[37206dude]

 

But in the city, with buildings fronting the street, sidewalk and parallel parking, there is nowhere that a cyclist "should" be. Therefore, they ARE a vehicle and must act and be respected accordingly.
 

 

 

Those of you who tagged that you liked Will's post,

• rookzie, Vrtigo and Nashvilletitans like this

 

 

I cordially invite you to ride with me in the city some time.  We can act like vehicles together, forgo all dedicated bike lanes, and ride in the full traffic lanes.  I even have a Bcycle card you can use.  Will, feel free to come along.  This is my regular route around 5PM.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/465+21st+Ave+S,+Nashville,+TN+37212/Woodland+St+%26+S+11th+St+WB/@36.1539742,-86.7640503,15z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x88646696f48fe3d7:0xbe099fe9531d62c0!2m2!1d-86.8003339!2d36.1445701!3m4!1m2!1d-86.7921076!2d36.1490195!3s0x88646691e30bfb47:0xd14531a3bdcad366!3m4!1m2!1d-86.781269!2d36.156706!3s0x8864665f9035feeb:0x4f8109c87569030f!1m5!1m1!1s0x886467d2ebaeee95:0x20e57263fd8f90ad!2m2!1d-86.750254!2d36.177293!3e0

 

When I see how the streets and bike lanes are in Nashville it seems to fit the general principle that when you design something that you would never use yourself it often ends up being crap.

[RonCamp]

I think what most people don't pick up on is that a bike lane is just a regular travel lane with a regulatory exclusion, like an HOV lane. It doesn't mean bikes are confined to that lane. If you're carpooling, you don't have to be in the HOV lane, but it's there for you if you want to use it. Same for bikes, you can use the bike lane or you can stay in the GP lane.

 

Thank you for making this very important point.  

 

The corollary to this is that bikers in this city (myself included) need to ensure we follow the rules of the road.  It doesn't help our case when bikers run lights, don't signal when needed, and/or ride on the sidewalks.   

[Vrtigo]

I cordially invite you to ride with me in the city some time.  We can act like vehicles together, forgo all dedicated bike lanes, and ride in the full traffic lanes.  I even have a Bcycle card you can use.  Will, feel free to come along.  This is my regular route around 5PM.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/465+21st+Ave+S,+Nashville,+TN+37212/Woodland+St+%26+S+11th+St+WB/@36.1539742,-86.7640503,15z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x88646696f48fe3d7:0xbe099fe9531d62c0!2m2!1d-86.8003339!2d36.1445701!3m4!1m2!1d-86.7921076!2d36.1490195!3s0x88646691e30bfb47:0xd14531a3bdcad366!3m4!1m2!1d-86.781269!2d36.156706!3s0x8864665f9035feeb:0x4f8109c87569030f!1m5!1m1!1s0x886467d2ebaeee95:0x20e57263fd8f90ad!2m2!1d-86.750254!2d36.177293!3e0

 

When I see how the streets and bike lanes are in Nashville it seems to fit the general principle that when you design something that you would never use yourself it often ends up being crap.

 

 

I would enjoy that. I might have even seen you ride by at some point from my desk in Cummins Station. My destination used to almost be on your route as well, (5th & Main) but I have since moved slightly north to Cleveland Park, though that is not dramatically out of the way.

 

In particular, I'm intrigued by your use of the roundabout... It feels dangerous enough in a car with how so few people here understand the rules of driving through one. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I'm currently terrified at the thought of riding through there.

[rookzie]

 

Those of you who tagged that you liked Will's post,

• rookzie, Vrtigo and Nashvilletitans like this

 

 

I cordially invite you to ride with me in the city some time.  We can act like vehicles together, forgo all dedicated bike lanes, and ride in the full traffic lanes.  I even have a Bcycle card you can use.  Will, feel free to come along.  This is my regular route around 5PM.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/465+21st+Ave+S,+Nashville,+TN+37212/Woodland+St+%26+S+11th+St+WB/@36.1539742,-86.7640503,15z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x88646696f48fe3d7:0xbe099fe9531d62c0!2m2!1d-86.8003339!2d36.1445701!3m4!1m2!1d-86.7921076!2d36.1490195!3s0x88646691e30bfb47:0xd14531a3bdcad366!3m4!1m2!1d-86.781269!2d36.156706!3s0x8864665f9035feeb:0x4f8109c87569030f!1m5!1m1!1s0x886467d2ebaeee95:0x20e57263fd8f90ad!2m2!1d-86.750254!2d36.177293!3e0

 

When I see how the streets and bike lanes are in Nashville it seems to fit the general principle that when you design something that you would never use yourself it often ends up being crap.

 

 

 

372, I'm agreeing only in theory -- only in theory -- w/r/t to bikes and vehicle.  I don't agree with NvWl that this indeed is the case, if indeed he would think so.  I would think that by my responses and questions you'd know me better than that.

 

The very reason I chose to ride the phreakin' bus most everywhere I go, and let my 3-year-old motorcar collect cobwebs, is that I have a serious dislike for cars and the city's apathy (or so it seems).  I have to admit that, just as cars have tried to pull that same stuff on buses that they do to cyclists, the very buses that I have ridden have collided with cars, and the drivers have been crushed to death by their own vehicles, and in mind I silently have thought "I told you so." of "maybe you know now to not do that again."  I don't "wish" any one driver that ultimate ill-fate, but if drivers (of cars) "Dis" buses, then they only will get away with so much.

 

I've always been an advocate of cyclist safety, since that had been my primary of conveyance during the early-, mid-'60s ─ typically up to 10 or 15 miles (even some strict parents would trust their kids back then), even though now I seem to be only really familiar with things that roll on tracks (like closet- and aircraft hangar doors).  I got livid when the city actually tried to "impose" some skinny-ass bike lanes on South Belmont (near Lipscomb) and on 18th Ave. N (the portion a.k.a. "Dr. D. B. Todd Junior Blvd" [tackily long name for a street]).  These excuses for such lanes weren't even as wide as the fat-a$$'s who would even try walking them, and no doubt is just some Council members trying to garner attention in a bad way.  I also now understand better the plight of North Belmont bike lanes, after you and Nathan_in_DC explained to me the general abandonment from bad implementation.  The way I see those parked cars themselves along that route disregard the bike-lane RoW by parking partly into those lanes, and the fact that buses discharge passengers directly into those same lanes, hell I wouldn't dare touch those things myself.  I know that you know, dude; my point of concurrence with NvWill was the assertion of ideal, not practiced.

-==-

[PruneTracy]

The corollary to this is that bikers in this city (myself included) need to ensure we follow the rules of the road.  It doesn't help our case when bikers run lights, don't signal when needed, and/or ride on the sidewalks.

 

On a semi-related note, I'm not a big fan of legislation like the three-foot rule, not because I like to see cyclists get splattered, but because it institutionalizes treating bicycles in a travel lane as something different than a vehicle. Most people Some people I wouldn't encroach into the opposite lane just to pass a car that was going slower than preferred, bikes are no different.

[Bezoar]

Thank you for making this very important point.  

 

The corollary to this is that bikers in this city (myself included) need to ensure we follow the rules of the road.  It doesn't help our case when bikers run lights, don't signal when needed, and/or ride on the sidewalks.   

Biking on a sidewalk is ok, except in a Business Zone. http://mpw.nashville.gov/IMS/Bikeways/FAQ.aspx#13 

[volsfanwill]

I yelled at  a guy on a bike yesterday to get off of the sidewalk.  He stopped and said where else should he be.  So i explained. He had no idea. 

[Bezoar]

 

 

 

 

 

Those of you who tagged that you liked Will's post,

• rookzie, Vrtigo and Nashvilletitans like this

 

 

I cordially invite you to ride with me in the city some time.  We can act like vehicles together, forgo all dedicated bike lanes, and ride in the full traffic lanes.  I even have a Bcycle card you can use.  Will, feel free to come along.  This is my regular route around 5PM.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/465+21st+Ave+S,+Nashville,+TN+37212/Woodland+St+%26+S+11th+St+WB/@36.1539742,-86.7640503,15z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x88646696f48fe3d7:0xbe099fe9531d62c0!2m2!1d-86.8003339!2d36.1445701!3m4!1m2!1d-86.7921076!2d36.1490195!3s0x88646691e30bfb47:0xd14531a3bdcad366!3m4!1m2!1d-86.781269!2d36.156706!3s0x8864665f9035feeb:0x4f8109c87569030f!1m5!1m1!1s0x886467d2ebaeee95:0x20e57263fd8f90ad!2m2!1d-86.750254!2d36.177293!3e0

 

When I see how the streets and bike lanes are in Nashville it seems to fit the general principle that when you design something that you would never use yourself it often ends up being crap.

 

 

Start point Vandy MCN?  

[RonCamp]

Biking on a sidewalk is ok, except in a Business Zone. http://mpw.nashville.gov/IMS/Bikeways/FAQ.aspx#13 

 

Good to know.  Thanks for the heads up.  

[37206dude]

Start point Vandy MCN?  

 

 

Just to be clear I was joking about all this.  My point was that unless you actually bike in the city during rush hour it's not easy to really understand what this is like from the point of view of the bike rider.

 

I do bike commute from Vanderbilt to East Nashville but I was approximating the locations to major intersections.

[Bezoar]

Just to be clear I was joking about all this.  My point was that unless you actually bike in the city during rush hour it's not easy to really understand what this is like from the point of view of the bike rider.

 

I do bike commute from Vanderbilt to East Nashville but I was approximating the locations to major intersections.

 

We may have crossed paths.  I bike to/from Vanderbilt every day, weather permitting, on a fair portion of the same route.  I split off of this route at the Gulch to cut over to North Nashville.  

[37206dude]

Biking on a sidewalk is ok, except in a Business Zone. http://mpw.nashville.gov/IMS/Bikeways/FAQ.aspx#13 

 

 

This is true, but it's often a bad idea.  If you are going very slow it's fine some places, but at any reasonable speed the sidewalk is not well suited for bikes the visibility is too poor.

Even when my little kids riding bikes on the sidewalk I have to be constantly vigilant for driveways etc

[37206dude]

Sorry rookzie,

I don't think I phrased my post well, I meant no ill will to anyone.

As I said my main point is that it's very hard to understand what it's like if you've not ridden there yourself.

 

 

372, I'm agreeing only in theory -- only in theory -- w/r/t to bikes and vehicle.  I don't agree with NvWl that this indeed is the case, if indeed he would think so.  I would think that by my responses and questions you'd know me better than that.

 

The very reason I chose to ride the phreakin' bus most everywhere I go, and let my 3-year-old motorcar collect cobwebs, is that I have a serious dislike for cars and the city's apathy (or so it seems).  I have to admit that, just as cars have tried to pull that same stuff on buses that they do to cyclists, the very buses that I have ridden have collided with cars, and the drivers have been crushed to death by their own vehicles, and in mind I silently have thought "I told you so." of "maybe you know now to not do that again."  I don't "wish" any one driver that ultimate ill-fate, but if drivers (of cars) "Dis" buses, then they only will get away with so much.

 

I've always been an advocate of cyclist safety, since that had been my primary of conveyance during the early-, mid-'60s ─ typically up to 10 or 15 miles (even some strict parents would trust their kids back then), even though now I seem to be only really familiar with things that roll on tracks (like closet- and aircraft hangar doors).  I got livid when the city actually tried to "impose" some skinny-ass bike lanes on South Belmont (near Lipscomb) and on 18th Ave. N (the portion a.k.a. "Dr. D. B. Todd Junior Blvd" [tackily long name for a street]).  These excuses for such lanes weren't even as wide as the fat-a$$'s who would even try walking them, and no doubt is just some Council members trying to garner attention in a bad way.  I also now understand better the plight of North Belmont bike lanes, after you and Nathan_in_DC explained to me the general abandonment from bad implementation.  The way I see those parked cars themselves along that route disregard the bike-lane RoW by parking partly into those lanes, and the fact that buses discharge passengers directly into those same lanes, hell I wouldn't dare touch those things myself.  I know that you know, dude; my point of concurrence with NvWill was the assertion of ideal, not practiced.

-==-

[nashvillwill]

I feel like my statement was misconstrued somehow. By saying "there is nowhere a cyclist SHOULD be" I wasn't implying that cyclist don't belong. On the contrary, I was alluding to the fact that cyclist have the right to the road.

I also never said that I intentionally don't use bike lanes. I do. If it's there and if it's safe.

Maybe I'm not reading you guys right (those tricky inter webs) and you're agreeing with me, but again, it's just my opinion.

Also, 37206dude, I imagine your rush hour commute is pretty tough through that stretch. I imagine you get a lot of grief from drivers. I'm sure you could teach some of us a thing or two. I would love to ride it with you sometime. Just not at 5am

Sounds like we have enough riders on here to do a group ride some Saturday. Maybe we could do an early morning ride on the way to a forum meeting.

Anyone game?

[37206dude]

I would enjoy that. I might have even seen you ride by at some point from my desk in Cummins Station. My destination used to almost be on your route as well, (5th & Main) but I have since moved slightly north to Cleveland Park, though that is not dramatically out of the way.

 

In particular, I'm intrigued by your use of the roundabout... It feels dangerous enough in a car with how so few people here understand the rules of driving through one. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I'm currently terrified at the thought of riding through there.

 

I really was joking, but sure I would enjoy sharing the bike commute. I usually leave home (7-7:30ish, but sometimes a little later) and back leaving Vandy around 4:30. I sometimes do come in from Woodland St bridge to Union to Church, which would be less out of your way.  The morning is way easier for traffic and better for a social ride. We could meet at bagel face or yeast nashville in the am if that would work some time.   Anyone would be welcome.

 

That map was approximate, I've gone a few different routes on the way home.

 

Simplest is straight down Demonbruen either to the ped bridge or up 5th or 4th to KVB.  The ped bridge is easiest traffic-wise, hardest stepness wise, but also requires a left on Shelby.  The bike lane on KVB is scary because many cars turn right hooking through the bike lane without looking for bikes, although if you are willing to take that risk you can bypass a lot of slow traffic.  The KVB bridge bike lane is in the gutter and usually filled with debris so I do take the traffic lane if I go over the road bridge.  Either way, I take Shelby over I-24 which itself is a little hairy.  The only real alternative is looping around Davidson, but that's too far out of the way.

 

I do ride the traffic circle to KVB sometimes.  The traffic circle to KVB is fairly intense on a bike, you need to get into the left lane within the circle and cross in front of cars waiting to enter the circle.  I have some serious blinkers to make myself as visible as possible.  I've never seen another bike there.  

 

Will, do you have occassion to ride the KVB traffic circle? 

[rookzie]

I cordially invite you to ride with me in the city some time.  We can act like vehicles together, forgo all dedicated bike lanes, and ride in the full traffic lanes.  I even have a Bcycle card you can use.  Will, feel free to come along.  This is my regular route around 5PM.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/465+21st+Ave+S,+Nashville,+TN+37212/Woodland+St+%26+S+11th+St+WB/@36.1539742,-86.7640503,15z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x88646696f48fe3d7:0xbe099fe9531d62c0!2m2!1d-86.8003339!2d36.1445701!3m4!1m2!1d-86.7921076!2d36.1490195!3s0x88646691e30bfb47:0xd14531a3bdcad366!3m4!1m2!1d-86.781269!2d36.156706!3s0x8864665f9035feeb:0x4f8109c87569030f!1m5!1m1!1s0x886467d2ebaeee95:0x20e57263fd8f90ad!2m2!1d-86.750254!2d36.177293!3e0

 

When I see how the streets and bike lanes are in Nashville it seems to fit the general principle that when you design something that you would never use yourself it often ends up being crap.

 

 

Sounds like we have enough riders on here to do a group ride some Saturday. Maybe we could do an early morning ride on the way to a forum meeting.

Anyone game?

 

 

I would be game, except....

 

 

...that I don't have a bike.  Haven't ridden one regularly since I used to ride up and down the boardwalk at the Va. Beach oceanfront just before dawn ─ 23 years ago.

 

... so like, I don't feel quite adequate, you see. (besides, I'm too rusty)

-==-

[nashvillwill]

Will, do you have occassion to ride the KVB traffic circle?

No, I don't. Full disclosure. I'm no longer a bike "commuter". My career has taken me way out to Ashland City, and there is no combination of bike/bus/spaceship that allows me to get a ride in. It's all 4 wheels for my commute these days. The only 2 wheeling I do these days is for fun. I miss the heck out of it though.

But, I've been through the roundabout several times. I don't recall having any problems with it, but then again, I don't recall doing it during peak rush. Must be the hardest on the uphill side.

[rookzie]

No, I don't. Full disclosure. I'm no longer a bike "commuter". My career has taken me way out to Ashland City, and there is no combination of bike/bus/spaceship that allows me to get a ride in. It's all 4 wheels for my commute these days. The only 2 wheeling I do these days is for fun. I miss the heck out of it though.

But, I've been through the roundabout several times. I don't recall having any problems with it, but then again, I don't recall doing it during peak rush. Must be the hardest on the uphill side.

 

Ashland City, eh?  You must by now really be "jones-ing" for that rapid transit left behind after so many years back west.

-==-.

[nashvillwill]

Ashland City, eh? You must by now really be "jones-ing" for that rapid transit left behind after so many years back west.

-==-.

Mixed feelings. I loved my bike/BART combo. Miss riding in Berkeley. It was amazing. But I don't miss I-880 and the 101. Hell on earth.

The commute out to Ashland City is about as enjoyable as a car commute can be. Empty roads, beautiful scenery. This will inevitable change as development creeps its way north, but for now, it's nice.

[37206dude]

Change of topics away from bikes...

 

I posted this on the West/Nations page since that's where this particular project is and asked there for feedback about that specific zoning request, but here I would like a more general discussion of mandated parking for commercial development.

 

51st and Illinois development sounds like it is getting resistance for potential impact on traffic and parking.

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2015/05/traffic-parking-worries-delay-nations-mixed-use.html

 

The developer in this case is Michael Kenner and I agree with his take is:

"Do we continue to design to the problem, which is traffic and parking, or do we design for the solution?" 

 

This reminded me of an old blog post from Chad Grout about parking mandates:

http://urbangrout.com/east-nashville-zoning-lose-the-parking/

 

Kenner and Grout have the same personal profit motive here but I genuinely believe they are correct.

 

I really don't see any argument for it.  At a time when we are struggling to give people some choices about transportation all this does is force a private business to subsidize the one choice that is most destructive for the city:  "everyone bring your own automobile wherever you go."

 

We don't say: if your business is a certain size then you must build a bus stop shelter or a Bcycle station.  I'm not in favor of that either, but if you are going to mandate something I would actually argue for those kind of mandates rather than mandating parking.

 

I want to be clear that I am not in favor of stopping any developer from building as much parking as they want, I just don't want it to be mandated.

 

If free street parking fills up, to me that's good.  Empty space is wasted space.  If there is a very strong market demand for parking, then someone will choose to devote their private land for a parking deck and charge a lot of money for it.  I really trust the free market to sort these things out very efficiently and parking mandates distort supply and demand both for land use and for transportation options in ways which have a negative impact on the city.

[volsfanwill]

http://www.wsmv.com/story/29205349/tune-airport-in-nashville-closing-for-renovation

 

Tune airport renovation. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by volsfanwill