Bank of America Stadium Renovation

[HopHead]

FYI: the above-pictured stadium for LA ain't going to happen.

 

Question: Panthers officials say they "need to know soon" ... or what ?

 

They have deadlines with contractors to start preparing for the renovations. Ideally, they'd like to start them after the 2013 season. So, if they can't get approval by some date they likely won't be able to start them until after the 2014 season.

[Urbanity]

Remember that the full $206M that the Panthers were asking for was to help cover ALL their needs. 

Actually - No.

The $206m was just the city and state part - The panthers still would be paying as well.  I think I the total was $300 million for all renovations.

[Green_man]

A newer stadium will certainly help the city as well as the team. 

 

How does it help the city?  No new jobs.  No new tax revenue.  Attendance is already good.  I'm just trying to figure out how upgrading the stadium helps anyone other than just the team.

[HopHead]

Actually - No.

The $206m was just the city and state part - The panthers still would be paying as well.  I think I the total was $300 million for all renovations.

 

You misunderstood my post... That $206M is what I was referring to as public money. Not including the Panthers contribution (of around $96M I think). 

[Urbanity]

Just look at competition within the state. Raleigh opened a 500,000 square foot convention center with a 400 room hotel 4 years ago. Greensboro has an expansion ready privately funded/owned 250,000 sq ft convention center with a 1,027 room hotel and a number of other hotels near it. Winston-Salem is planning a major renovation to its 100,000 sq ft convention center and High Point is doing a study to build a convention center. Because of this, Charlotte is not hosting as many state conventions and competition is fierce for the big national conventions. Other major cities have newer, bigger convention centers and they are bigger destination cities. The DNC was an anomaly. 

 

 

I'm just gonna give my two cents on this part of your post.

 

 First the developments in Raleigh and Greensboro are not related to this. Let's not make this a city vs. city thing.  And if you did I say to consider conferences, events, trade shows and media attention, that Charlotte attracts and will continue to attract are based on selling the whole city as a package and not one facility.

 

As far as the DNC being an anomaly - uhm - not really. 

 

It was our largest event true, but the city has been getting bigger conventions and attention for a few years now whether the Swim Meets with Michael Phelps (with all the international coverage); the NRA convention with over 90,000 (and all the international coverage), The recent national GOP strategy conference (and all the international coverage).

Charlotte has arrived and had arrived a while ago.  The fact is that the city does have plans to expand the conference center and it eventually will, but in this economy the city has to make a priority choice of which is the most important need with the bigger immediate pay off for Charlotte based on what money it has and will have available:  Funding Panthers renovations or putting money aside for some future conference center expansion.

[ah59396]

How does it help the city?  No new jobs.  No new tax revenue.  Attendance is already good.  I'm just trying to figure out how upgrading the stadium helps anyone other than just the team.

 

If we *are* to get a Superbowl...or world cup event/qualifier, or anything that isn't Panthers related...  It certainly will be beneficial for the city.  And it will likely be the result of renovations.  There is your tax revenue.  There is your boost to the local economy.

[Dale]

They have deadlines with contractors to start preparing for the renovations. Ideally, they'd like to start them after the 2013 season. So, if they can't get approval by some date they likely won't be able to start them until after the 2014 season.

I've been following the situation fairly closely. The site is approved, yes. But the NFL is neither excited about the location (they want an ocean of parking for tail-gating) nor excited about ownership requirements. Attention has shifted to Dodger Stadium or possibly a suburban location. I can also tell you that Angelenos I know are not optimistic about getting a team anytime soon.

[HopHead]

One thing I'd like to throw out there, and a prominent Charlotte-area sports columnist who actually works for a NFL publication just mentioned this, is that Panther fans should be more worried about the state of South Carolina than LA. To me, and I've heard a lot of people in NFL circles sharing this same opinion, the Los Angeles group is really nothing more than a dysfunctional mess that is unable to convince NFL owners and commissioner that they fully have their ducks in a row. As a matter of fact, all the plans they've drawn up haven't exactly been a slam dunk. Whether it's from financing to location or what have you. LA has just been used as leverage by every other team looking to get public financing. So back to South Carolina... Don't think that their governor wouldn't welcome a chance at the Panthers moving across state lines. Even if it's just York County. As we all know, the Knights will be leaving behind a pretty sizable plot of land at the end of the 2013 baseball season. They are looking at all options. It's right off the interstate. The Panthers almost built their original stadium on the NC/SC line. I don't think it would come down to that, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. Many things would have to happen first. But lots of other Charlotte area businesses have jumped from Mecklenburg to York and Lancaster counties. The thought of that would eat at both Charlotte and State politicians. And how ironic would it be if the Knights and Panthers switched locations.

 

And just in case you didn't know Richardson and Gov. Haley were friends: http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120730/ARTICLES/207311009?tc=ar

[kermit]

^ Would a York county move be that bad? It would keep the team in "Charlotte" (broadly defined), North Carolinians would no longer be on the hook for taxpayer funds and it would open up a huge chunk of uptown land for redevelopment into uses that have activity more than 12-15 times per year. In addition the size of football crowds makes it the least transit friendly of all sports

 

I am not trying to be dismissive of the Panthers but I am tentatively suggesting that York county might be a benign shift.

[Urbanity]

To be frank - I don't think they are going to move (funding issue right now or not).  And if they do move over about $70 million then I think we were going to lose them anyway.

I can't say what the future (post Richardson) would bring, but I think all the chatter (not really this board so much as media and city people) about the Panthers moving is more than hype - it's counter productive to getting the deal done - I put a lot of that blame at the Mayor and Council's feet for both the way the original behind close door/with police protection nature of the first agreement, and for the way they hyped up the idea of the Panthers leaving.

 

Frankly they created this mess from the get go and made it 10x worse by trying to tack on everything from a new Stadium to Amateur Sports and then releasing information about these other plans only grudgingly when the media started to do the math on the tax amount.

 

As it now stands between the streetcar hold-up of the CIP and the fumble with the Panthers funding (pun intended   ) I really am amazed at how much the current city mayor and council are turning this liberal democrat into a tea partier!

 

(Not really, but you get my gist)

[ah59396]

There is no way the team would go to York County.  Ever.

 

Here is why:

 

 

1.  The current stadium was built with PSL money.  If the team were to privately build a new stadium in York...who is buying the PSL's to fund it????

 

2.  York county doesn't have the tax base (a quarter of the population of Mecklenburg) to pay for a $750 - $900 million stadium.  Because that is what a new stadium is going to cost.  The idea of that is laughable.  

 

3.  Does anyone here honestly believe that the state of SOUTH CAROLINA is going to pony up the money.  It is already far more conservative than North Carolina in regards of spending and our state isn't willing to give the team $70 million.  Does anyone believe the people of Charleston wouldn't scream bloody murder at the thought of having their tax money go the Panthers, who would still be nearly 3 hours away?  What is the benefit for them?  The same argument could be made for the folks in Wilmington, or Raleigh.  Hence why our state government isn't helping.

 

The Panthers moving to SC is crazy talk.

[carolinagarnet]

^ It is crazy talk, but don't underestimate how much Haley spends for good publicity. I don't think the Boeing economic incentives were ever made public, but some have estimated that they are in the high hundreds of millions. This certainly isn't scientific, but I think the SC Commerce Department has outspent the NC Commerce Department in the past few years on incentives. This is insane when you remember that SC is half the size of NC in terms of population. Haley is the definition of RINO.

[cityboi]

I'm just gonna give my two cents on this part of your post.

First the developments in Raleigh and Greensboro are not related to this. Let's not make this a city vs. city thing. And if you did I say to consider conferences, events, trade shows and media attention, that Charlotte attracts and will continue to attract are based on selling the whole city as a package and not one facility.

As far as the DNC being an anomaly - uhm - not really.

It was our largest event true, but the city has been getting bigger conventions and attention for a few years now whether the Swim Meets with Michael Phelps (with all the international coverage); the NRA convention with over 90,000 (and all the international coverage), The recent national GOP strategy conference (and all the international coverage).

Charlotte has arrived and had arrived a while ago. The fact is that the city does have plans to expand the conference center and it eventually will, but in this economy the city has to make a priority choice of which is the most important need with the bigger immediate pay off for Charlotte based on what money it has and will have available: Funding Panthers renovations or putting money aside for some future conference center expansion.

The point I was trying to make is that because of other facilities in the state, Charlotte hasn't been hosting as many conventions as it has in the past particularly state conventions. Because of the competition statewide and nationally, the focus should shift from the convention center to Bank of America stadium upgrades. Thats what I was driving at..not city vs city. I think it's more important to keep the Panthers in town than worrying about a 1,000 room hotel attached to the convention center. The DNC is almost as big as conventions get and Charlotte handled the DNC fine without it. Thats not to say Charlotte shouldn't build one at some point, but right now we need to do everything we can to save the Panthers. Quite frankly I think private developer can take on a 1,000 room hotel project anyway. Government shouldn't have to be involved with that.

[Urbanity]

The point I was trying to make is that because of other facilities in the state, Charlotte hasn't been hosting as many conventions as it has in the past particularly state conventions. 

I never heard that Charlotte was losing convention business to Raleigh and Greensboro.  I never thought Charlotte's convention market was state conventions anyway even if the latter was true.

[Urbanity]

Elon Poll released shows 88% are opposed to State funding for Panthers renovations which is all the justification Raleigh needs to not revisit their decision on State Funding.   In other words - the question of State Funding (in my opinion) is dead which leaves it solely between Charlotte and the Panthers.

 

Interestingly, The CBJ reporting that the local restaurant group has changed their tune and are now open to an increase in the food and beverage tax.  Obviously the original proposal was shot down in Raleigh as it was several times the amount needed for the Panthers and really was a money grab by Charlotte.

 

If the city perhaps requests only enough to fund the Panthers request (close to $200m - counting what was going to be the State portion) and have it structured in a decent way (maybe .5% to expire in 15 years or so) they might be able to negotiate.   I'm still not certain if the State would go for this either but I do believe it's worth a shot.

 

Anyway you look at it - it's up to the city now.  I certainly wouldn't mind the team changing the name to the Charlotte Panthers after all of this.

Edit:  Kevin Siers Editorial Cartoon is on point:

[HopHead]

RE: Panthers moving to South Carolina as crazy talk. I don't think it's crazy talk at all. Sports owners have been well known in the past to do something radical in spite of their current local or state politicians. How many people thought the Redskins would move out of DC into suburban Maryland? At around the same time the Ravens (the original Browns) were moving to Baltimore from Cleveland. Also, look at the New York Jets and Giants. Neither of those teams have played a home game in New York in over 30 years. Point is, as crazy as it may sound for the Panthers to move into York county or elsewhere it's not out of the realm of possibility. All you need is a willing owner and a willing partner (make it a governor, some group of politicians or wealthy individual(s) willing to partner up). We know Richardson has plenty of connections in South Carolina. I'm sure he could make something work. Do I think it will happen? No. But can it? Yes.

 

 

 

Elon Poll released shows 88% are opposed to State funding for Panthers renovations which is all the justification Raleigh needs to not revisit their decision on State Funding.   In other words - the question of State Funding (in my opinion) is dead which leaves it solely between Charlotte and the Panthers.

 

Interestingly, The CBJ reporting that the local restaurant group has changed their tune and are now open to an increase in the food and beverage tax.  Obviously the original proposal was shot down in Raleigh as it was several times the amount needed for the Panthers and really was a money grab by Charlotte.

 

If the city perhaps requests only enough to fund the Panthers request (close to $200m - counting what was going to be the State portion) and have it structured in a decent way (maybe .5% to expire in 15 years or so) they might be able to negotiate.   I'm still not certain if the State would go for this either but I do believe it's worth a shot.

 

Anyway you look at it - it's up to the city now.  I certainly wouldn't mind the team changing the name to the Charlotte Panthers after all of this.

Edit:  Kevin Siers Editorial Cartoon is on point:

 

Interesting change of tune by the local restaurant groups. I wasn't in favor of the 1% restaurant tax. Mostly because it seems to punish the majority instead of those that directly benefit from the stadium and it would have collected far more money than it needed. I would be ok with a smaller increase to only be used for paying for the committed upgrades. I think that's doable if you keep it in the .25-.50% range. Maybe the Panthers should consider changing the name to Charlotte since it's apparent a majority of the state doesn't want to help. Besides there are plenty of people in the media that refer to them, albeit jokingly, as the Charlotte Panthers anyways. I'm sure McCrory would fight that too! 

[southslider]

The only time an NFL team hired moving trucks in LA was when one left there.

[cltbwimob]

Can the city move to SC as well? I think Columbia would welcome Charlotte & Mecklenburg county. I think at the very least they wouldn't actively seek ways to spite the city and strip it of it's autonomy.

[15895]

Can the city move to SC as well? I think Columbia would welcome Charlotte & Mecklenburg county. I think at the very least they wouldn't actively seek ways to spite the city and strip it of it's autonomy.

Everything in NC is illegal. Like Advanced payloans, etc.

Id love to know which regions have it out for us in NC... It's interesting to see sequester crushing other parts of NC (and will have a huge impact on Cabaruss with their air traffic control center which NASCAR relies on) and the military parts of NC go down the dumps.

I say that in this thread because we are trying to invest in our city and the state wants to keep ripping us from state funding... It's interesting, yet vindictive of me, to watch Cabaruss and other counties be heavily effected by getting funding stripped.

There's not a thing that anyone can tell me that will convince me that the NC GOP does no have it out for us, Charlotte... Let's see sequester continue to make hard prioritizing funding decisions like NC is doing to CLT

[ah59396]

Hey look, if Miami residents don't build a stadium for the Dolphins; they wont be able to host the Superbowl and may move to LA.  Where have I heard this before?!?!

 

http://deadspin.com/5989010/miami-residents-will-vote-on-whether-to-publicly-finance-the-dolphins-stadium-renovations

 

 

I'm all for forward thinking, but I also do not want to be held hostage like Miami-Dade county, who will likely spend 1.6 BILLION dollars for a baseball stadium and football field renovations.  That's about the same price as running the BLE to Concord.

[Green_man]

 Mostly because it seems to punish the majority instead of those that directly benefit from the stadium

 

I agree, the people that directly benefit from stadium upgrades should pay for them:  the Charlotte Panthers.  Name me one other group that benefits. 

 

Talk about Charlotte getting a Super Bowl after these upgrades is a bit far fetched.  Likely to get support from people that think revenue to the city from a Super Bowl would justify the expense.  But think about it, is the Panther stadium just a few escalators and bigger jumbotron away from being able to host a Super Bowl?  Not likely.

[HopHead]

^Nobody here, or elsewhere, said that Charlotte was a new video board and escalators away from getting the Super Bowl. They need an indoor practice facility and more hotel rooms on top of the other upgrades to even have a shot at landing the game. That's been discussed at length here.

[Green_man]

^Right, so connecting state funds to support these upgrades is unjustified.  The only benefit stadium improvements would have to the state would be major additional revenue streams (Super Bowl) generated by their investment.  Since these upgrades will not bring that to the state, there's no reason for the state to throw their money away.

[ah59396]

^ That is an unfair argument to make.  I could easily ask you what benefit the Charlotte, Asheville, Wilmington, ect. would get from the state helping to fund a light rail for Raleigh- Durham.  None.  Just as you could argue the opposite.

[carolinagarnet]

^ You could argue that light rail will take some pressure off the roads, thus delaying or negating the need for repaving/expansions. Of course ridership numbers do not exactly support this position, but it's an argument nonetheless. It's a shame that Charlotte does not have a big D1 team it could claim would substantiate state funding for upgrades to BoA Stadium (I'm looking at you, NC State).