Brightline Trains

[cubanbread]

16 hours ago, shardoon said:

Stuart won. They are getting the next station. They are also getting a higher bridge that has a 16 foot clearance double tracked...... up from single track 6 foot clearance. 

Fort Pierce was a better pick in my opinion but from what I've read, the city of Stuart and the county are covering 45 million of the 60 million dollar price tag of the station and they leased out the property to Brightline for 80$ ... or 1$ a year for 80 years. 
My guess is that they determined that the ridership potential between the 2 cities wasn't a significant enough difference and went with the option to go with the place that is covering 75% of the cost of the station.  This is going to be interesting to watch how everything plays out. I don't know a lot about Stuart but I know Brightline wants to develop around their stations or attract development around their stations. Stuart doesn't strike me as the type of place that's going to be very open to newer, denser, developments. But who knows, either way, exciting times for Stuart, this is going to change that little city for the better. 

[shardoon]

33 minutes ago, cubanbread said:

Fort Pierce was a better pick in my opinion but from what I've read, the city of Stuart and the county are covering 45 million of the 60 million dollar price tag of the station and they leased out the property to Brightline for 80$ ... or 1$ a year for 80 years. 
My guess is that they determined that the ridership potential between the 2 cities wasn't a significant enough difference and went with the option to go with the place that is covering 75% of the cost of the station.  This is going to be interesting to watch how everything plays out. I don't know a lot about Stuart but I know Brightline wants to develop around their stations or attract development around their stations. Stuart doesn't strike me as the type of place that's going to be very open to newer, denser, developments. But who knows, either way, exciting times for Stuart, this is going to change that little city for the better. 

I agree. I think there was more potential for Ft. Pierce.  

[codypet]

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

I agree. I think there was more potential for Ft. Pierce.  

And Ft. Pierce is salty about it too.  Oof.  

[dcluley98]

Stuart, FL Median Income: $30,771 
Fort Pierce, FL Median Income: $21,360

Edited February 28 by dcluley98

[Ivanhoe]

Cannot say I’m surprised. Brightline will focus on  link the Cape Canaveral and I expect they will need to put in a considerable amount of their own money to do so.

Its funny, I remember when this was touted as a private high speed rail system.

Neither private or high speed. 
But I do appreciate the progress.

Brightline is really taking Florida cities for a ride. There’s a reason the ext. to Tampa is on the back burner — there are no “Stuart’s” pleading to pony up cash on that route right now. 
It cannot be overstated how important the link to Disney was to this extension. 

Edited February 28 by Ivanhoe

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

Cannot say I’m surprised. Brightline will focus on  link the Cape Canaveral and I expect they will need to put in a considerable amount of their own money to do so.

Its funny, I remember when this was touted as a private high speed rail system.

Neither private or high speed. 
But I do appreciate the progress.

Brightline is really taking Florida cities for a ride. There’s a reason the ext. to Tampa is on the back burner — there are no “Stuart’s” pleading to pony up cash on that route right now. 
It cannot be overstated how important the link to Disney was to this extension. 

Well, based on everything that was put out there last year, Disney wasn't ever going to pay for any part of the BL station- BL was.   But when Sunshine Corridor was proposed, Disney bowed out with a thud like the butt-hurts that they are because Universal was going to pay for a station and donate land for it.  I think Disney was also going to charge BL rent at Diz Springs on top of it (but not sure- prior articles that have been posted laid it all out).

As for ridership numbers, the Orlando segment to MCO is outselling the SoFla segment like 51% to 49%, and the SoFla segment was already profitable to begin with. So that's a success.

On the subject of taking Florida cities for a "ride," um, since time began, developers and landlords have done the whole build to suit thing to lure companies to their cities.  Sure, some companies financed new skyscrapers and stuff.  But why should BL pay for a station in a city where they didn't plan for a station to be when its that city that really wants the station there?  Last I checked cities give incentives to companies for their presence there (see KPM&G, etc.).  Why should BL be any different? 

What are you referencing with regards to BL's next focus being Cape Canaveral?

[codypet]

Also the argument is always made that the money that comes in to the municipality in the form of taxes from new business and property and sales tax will offset the construction and maintenance cost of the station.

[Ivanhoe]

16 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, based on everything that was put out there last year, Disney wasn't ever going to pay for any part of the BL station- BL was.   But when Sunshine Corridor was proposed, Disney bowed out with a thud like the butt-hurts that they are because Universal was going to pay for a station and donate land for it.  I think Disney was also going to charge BL rent at Diz Springs on top of it (but not sure- prior articles that have been posted laid it all out).

As for ridership numbers, the Orlando segment to MCO is outselling the SoFla segment like 51% to 49%, and the SoFla segment was already profitable to begin with. So that's a success.

On the subject of taking Florida cities for a "ride," um, since time began, developers and landlords have done the whole build to suit thing to lure companies to their cities.  Sure, some companies financed new skyscrapers and stuff.  But why should BL pay for a station in a city where they didn't plan for a station to be when its that city that really wants the station there?  Last I checked cities give incentives to companies for their presence there (see KPM&G, etc.).  Why should BL be any different? 

What are you referencing with regards to BL's next focus being Cape Canaveral?

I’m not claiming Brightline should be any different from a money grabbing corporate entity. I just find it laughable that Rick Scott and  anti-Obama Floridians told the federal government to take a hike on true HSR and are now begging for federal dollars to complete a segment that would already have been built right now. Hypocrisy at its finest. 
 

But hey, it’s good business for BL and yes, they’re taking you for a ride and not just on those tracks.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I’m not claiming Brightline should be any different from a money grabbing corporate entity. I just find it laughable that Rick Scott and  anti-Obama Floridians told the federal government to take a hike on true HSR and are now begging for federal dollars to complete a segment that would already have been built right now. Hypocrisy at its finest. 
 

But hey, it’s good business for BL and yes, they’re taking you for a ride and not just on those tracks.

Well, Obama-Rail has proven to be a failure already (see CA HSR, the $100B train to nowhere boondoggle).  And back when Scott was governor, there were protests out of Miami-Dade County about the proposal, stating (rightfully so) why would the Fed, for an initial segment, try to connect Tampa to Orlando instead of Orlando to Miami, two of the largest tourism centers anywhere?  They were right.  Mica even thought that Disney to Tampa would be a "dog" segment but that MCO to Disney would be the money maker.  Then Scott nixed the money.  This was back when Sunrail was on the table as well and Scott had the authority to nix that too.  So there was no Sunrail yet.  Since then, Sunrail Phases I & II have been up and running, BL in SoFla has been up and running, and MCO to WPB BL is now up and running.   The whole bonds thing is different than FDOT and DOT directly paying for a system.

But the reason why Scott nixed it was because BHO was trying to buy votes in a swing state, obviously.  He didn't care where that line was being built, so long as it got built, and he didn't care about whether the line failed because it would be up the state and local governments to deal with it (see CA HSR).  That is why officials from Miami protested it.  Now, I have my own thoughts about this and FEC's involvement in the nixing.

But, who cares about that town anyway?  Miami, Aventura, FTL, Boca, WPB, and MCO all have stations.  DOT and FDOT paid for our Intermodal Center with very little coming from GOAA.  And GOAA got the long end of the stick by making FEC pay rent to GOAA for the Maintenance Facility here, on City property.  That was very good. 

I just don't see how Florida is being taken for a ride.  FEC improved several city blocks in downtown Miami with infrastructure and development, and on a smaller scale in those other locations.

As it is now, for Orlando's sake, Orlando is connected to Miami via BL, which is a success.  When you consider the optics of this, this is huge.  And, this would have never happened with Obama-Rail because if the Tampa to Orlando segment failed (which it likely would have or would have underwhelmed with ridership numbers), then it would have ended there because the FRA would view rail across Florida as a failure and a bad risk.  But now, with Miami to Orlando a success, future links are viable because the initial link is a success.  Obama should have earmarked about $5B for Orlando to Miami as an initial phase, but he didn't.

The other positive here is that FEC has invested and improved its freight lines along that route.  On a similar note, CSX did the same thing when Sunrail was solidified. 

And on a similar note, Scott would not have nixed Sunrail because CSX was also benefitting from the deal.   So now you have two large Florida railroads benefitting from two systems when under Obama-Rail, neither would have benefitted- unless Obama-Rail had a Sunrail link (but that was not a factor in that proposal- only the nebulous concept of local governments creating local rail infrastructure to support that segment.

[shardoon]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I’m not claiming Brightline should be any different from a money grabbing corporate entity. I just find it laughable that Rick Scott and  anti-Obama Floridians told the federal government to take a hike on true HSR and are now begging for federal dollars to complete a segment that would already have been built right now. Hypocrisy at its finest. 
 

But hey, it’s good business for BL and yes, they’re taking you for a ride and not just on those tracks.

I was disappointed when it didn't get built. However, like others have mentioned, I do not believe the Disney to Tampa leg would have been successful and this would have been an excuse that anti rail people would have used against a Miami leg or even Sunrail. With that being said, what was planned was not true HSR either. Although the trains set was "planned"  to be capable of reaching 168mph, the 84 mile trip from Tampa to OIA would have taken 1 hour 4 minutes. 

Convention Center to Airport average speed 60 mph

Disney to OIA average speed just under 54 mph

Tampa to OIA average speed just over 79 mph

Lakeland to Tampa average speed 85 mph

So, maybe there is a second or two during the journey that would qualify as high speed, the marketing of it by the Fed was taking Floridians on the same type of ride that you feel Brightline is doing. 

[codypet]

19 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, Obama-Rail has proven to be a failure already (see CA HSR, the $100B train to nowhere boondoggle).  And back when Scott was governor, there were protests out of Miami-Dade County about the proposal, stating (rightfully so) why would the Fed, for an initial segment, try to connect Tampa to Orlando instead of Orlando to Miami, two of the largest tourism centers anywhere?  They were right.  Mica even thought that Disney to Tampa would be a "dog" segment but that MCO to Disney would be the money maker.  Then Scott nixed the money.  This was back when Sunrail was on the table as well and Scott had the authority to nix that too.  So there was no Sunrail yet.  Since then, Sunrail Phases I & II have been up and running, BL in SoFla has been up and running, and MCO to WPB BL is now up and running.   The whole bonds thing is different than FDOT and DOT directly paying for a system.

But the reason why Scott nixed it was because BHO was trying to buy votes in a swing state, obviously.  He didn't care where that line was being built, so long as it got built, and he didn't care about whether the line failed because it would be up the state and local governments to deal with it (see CA HSR).  That is why officials from Miami protested it.  Now, I have my own thoughts about this and FEC's involvement in the nixing.

But, who cares about that town anyway?  Miami, Aventura, FTL, Boca, WPB, and MCO all have stations.  DOT and FDOT paid for our Intermodal Center with very little coming from GOAA.  And GOAA got the long end of the stick by making FEC pay rent to GOAA for the Maintenance Facility here, on City property.  That was very good. 

I just don't see how Florida is being taken for a ride.  FEC improved several city blocks in downtown Miami with infrastructure and development, and on a smaller scale in those other locations.

As it is now, for Orlando's sake, Orlando is connected to Miami via BL, which is a success.  When you consider the optics of this, this is huge.  And, this would have never happened with Obama-Rail because if the Tampa to Orlando segment failed (which it likely would have or would have underwhelmed with ridership numbers), then it would have ended there because the FRA would view rail across Florida as a failure and a bad risk.  But now, with Miami to Orlando a success, future links are viable because the initial link is a success.  Obama should have earmarked about $5B for Orlando to Miami as an initial phase, but he didn't.

The other positive here is that FEC has invested and improved its freight lines along that route.  On a similar note, CSX did the same thing when Sunrail was solidified. 

And on a similar note, Scott would not have nixed Sunrail because CSX was also benefitting from the deal.   So now you have two large Florida railroads benefitting from two systems when under Obama-Rail, neither would have benefitted- unless Obama-Rail had a Sunrail link (but that was not a factor in that proposal- only the nebulous concept of local governments creating local rail infrastructure to support that segment.

The reason why Tampa/Orlando was the first leg was because that was easier/cheaper to get real estate faster.  Miami-Orlando was always envisioned as the 2nd phase.  Trying to get R/W to Miami would have been a huge undertaking and taken a lot of time FDOT knew that and knew they needed the long lead time, so Tampa went first.  Also the maintenance facility for Miami needed to be built with the Tampa project.   There was Miami needs baked into the Tampa project.  The only reason Brightline was able to pull this off in the timeframe it did was because they already owned the tracks through 3/4 of the route.  Even then they're 8 years behind their original plan.  

The contract was set up as a Design Build Operate Maintain where the entity that built it was responsible for the construction maintenance was handled by the same entity.  So whoever ended up building was forking over the money to finance construction and making up on the backend (See how I-4 Ultimate got funded, it was the same way).  

President Obama didn't need to buy the votes, he was just elected.  Scott rejected the money in February 2011, Obama's re-election campaign wasn't until 2012.  What they were trying to do at the time was stimulate engineering and construction jobs after those fields were decimated during the recession.  

I'm not saying things shouldn't have worked out the way that they did, but they situation isn't as black and white as some people make it out to be.  Also there were a lot of innocent people that got caught in the crossfire of this and had their lives turned upside down as a result.   

18 hours ago, shardoon said:

So, maybe there is a second or two during the journey that would qualify as high speed, the marketing of it by the Fed was taking Floridians on the same type of ride that you feel Brightline is doing. 

It would have reached 220mph (which was the requirement for HSR) in a couple of places between Disney and Tampa (north and south of Lakeland)

Edited March 1 by codypet

[shardoon]

45 minutes ago, codypet said:

The reason why Tampa/Orlando was the first leg was because that was easier/cheaper to get real estate faster.  Miami-Orlando was always envisioned as the 2nd phase.  Trying to get R/W to Miami would have been a huge undertaking and taken a lot of time FDOT knew that and knew they needed the long lead time, so Tampa went first.  Also the maintenance facility for Miami needed to be built with the Tampa project.   There was Miami needs baked into the Tampa project.  The only reason Brightline was able to pull this off in the timeframe it did was because they already owned the tracks through 3/4 of the route.  Even then they're 8 years behind their original plan.  

The contract was set up as a Design Build Operate Maintain where the entity that built it was responsible for the construction maintenance was handled by the same entity.  So whoever ended up building was forking over the money to finance construction and making up on the backend (See how I-4 Ultimate got funded, it was the same way).  

President Obama didn't need to buy the votes, he was just elected.  Scott rejected the money in February 2011, Obama's re-election campaign wasn't until 2012.  What they were trying to do at the time was stimulate engineering and construction jobs after those fields were decimated during the recession.  

I'm not saying things shouldn't have worked out the way that they did, but they situation isn't as black and white as some people make it out to be.  Also there were a lot of innocent people that got caught in the crossfire of this and had their lives turned upside down as a result.   

It would have reached 220mph (which was the requirement for HSR) in a couple of places between Disney and Tampa (north and south of Lakeland)

I have not seen any documentation of 220mph speeds anywhere. Can you provide a link?

Also, I posted the average speeds for the different links. Let's just say it did reach 220mph at some point, to factor that into the average speeds of the segment means that such a majority of the ride would have to be at amtrak speeds to drop it so much. So really marketing and smoke and mirrors. Nothing like Asia or Europe. 

Based on the published averages, really no different than brightline, even though people like to say the 2010 proposal was a full fledge HSR line compared to brightline where people on the opposite end of the political spectrum like to say is less than HSR. It's just semantics for people to try to score political points, but ignores the big picture. 

Now, a true HSR could have taken off with a phase two down to Miami withing the turnpike ROW........but I'm really doubtful it would have ever gotten built for reasons discussed on other posts. 

 

 

 

[codypet]

The average speed also factors in stops.  The whole corridor averages 88 mph including stops.  If you consider how long they have to stop to load unload, those average travel speeds are much higher.  The OIA to Disney segments obviously average below 60mph so if you realize the whole corridor's average is much higher than that, you do end up having to be run 220 in some short stints along the corridor.

Edited March 1 by codypet

[shardoon]

27 minutes ago, codypet said:

The average speed also factors in stops.  The whole corridor averages 88 mph including stops.  If you consider how long they have to stop to load unload, those average travel speeds are much higher.  The OIA to Disney segments obviously average below 60mph so if you realize the whole corridor's average is much higher than that, you do end up having to be run 220 in some short stints along the corridor.

After riding brightline, the stops are negligible. Literally like 90 seconds

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

The reason why Tampa/Orlando was the first leg was because that was easier/cheaper to get real estate faster.  Miami-Orlando was always envisioned as the 2nd phase.  Trying to get R/W to Miami would have been a huge undertaking and taken a lot of time FDOT knew that and knew they needed the long lead time, so Tampa went first.  Also the maintenance facility for Miami needed to be built with the Tampa project.   There was Miami needs baked into the Tampa project.  The only reason Brightline was able to pull this off in the timeframe it did was because they already owned the tracks through 3/4 of the route.  Even then they're 8 years behind their original plan.  

The contract was set up as a Design Build Operate Maintain where the entity that built it was responsible for the construction maintenance was handled by the same entity.  So whoever ended up building was forking over the money to finance construction and making up on the backend (See how I-4 Ultimate got funded, it was the same way).  

President Obama didn't need to buy the votes, he was just elected.  Scott rejected the money in February 2011, Obama's re-election campaign wasn't until 2012.  What they were trying to do at the time was stimulate engineering and construction jobs after those fields were decimated during the recession.  

 

yeah, the timing matches the reelection cycle and the easier of the two legs comports to what I was talking about...

[Ivanhoe]

2 hours ago, shardoon said:

After riding brightline, the stops are negligible. Literally like 90 seconds

Trains don’t start and stop on a whim. It is not negligible.  
Brightline will not reach its potential as true high speed rail in Florida.

Nevada and CA will get it.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Trains don’t start and stop on a whim. It is not negligible.  
Brightline will not reach its potential as true high speed rail in Florida.

Nevada and CA will get it.

I'll let you guys do the back and forth regarding average speed ala extra station stops...but...

we will all be dead from old age by the time HSR is operational in CA between two meaningful and/or major urban centers.  So they lied about the cost and the overruns shot it up from $17-25B or so to over $100B and SF and LA still don't get a connection with that.  Add to that, that state will lean on the Fed to pay for the remainder of it- which is the most expensive portion; through those cities.  So they start a project and tell the Fed that they can't abandon it midway to hook them to commit to finishing it even though either incompetence or just sheer misrepresentation lured the Fed into awarding that money to CA.  More than likely, Obama didn't really care about the can of worms he was opening up.  Just like with Florida, he didn't really care if the Tampa line failed; because he knew the State and Fed would be on the hook to keep pumping money into it until it was a success.

And on the BL West Vegas line note, it connects to the outskirts of San Bernardino, and then hits desert and the Nevada state line.  Comparing LA to Orlando, it would be like saying BL connects at I-4 & US 27 or where Fla Polytechnic is in Polk at or near a hypothetical Sunrail station.  LA metro is very large.

Technically CA will have HSR...somewhere on its soil...the Florida equivalent being a hypothetical line to the west of the Everglades up through Sebring and up thru Mascotte, which is way west of Clermont.  Except, Florida is more narrow than CA  so Orlando, Tampa, and Miami-FTL-WPB would be much closer to that imaginary line than LA and SF are to the line being currently built by a state in the red.  $100B for that line, and it doesn't even come close to San Bernardino  (like BL does)nor SF.

So, when you say Nevada and CA "will get it,"  the "it" needs to be defined, and this is the definition. 

So, once Scott nixed that money, BL built the system through the SoFla metro, expanded it, and then built and improved track up to MCO by 2023.  And it is fully operational AND SUCCESSFUL and the only dark spot on it (which apparently is NOT a factor to riders like I thought it might be) is that Sunrail does not connect to it (yet) at MCO.  Apparently it's average speed isn't a factor either, otherwise it would have flopped already.  How many months has it been thus far, five full months going on six?  And this is the slow part of the tourism season.  Imagine what their numbers will be coming up.

[shardoon]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Trains don’t start and stop on a whim. It is not negligible.  
Brightline will not reach its potential as true high speed rail in Florida.

Nevada and CA will get it.

Yea, Brightline west will get it. I believe the issue was no electrified tracks here, otherwise there is no excuse for the Cocoa to OIA leg not reaching those speeds since it's a closed circuit. 

[dcluley98]

As I stated previously, the limitation for Cocoa to OIA is the locomotive. 

[shardoon]

25 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

As I stated previously, the limitation for Cocoa to OIA is the locomotive. 

Maybe down the road they can get one that can do both? Do they exist? The Orlando to Tampa portion within I4 will be a closed circuit with no at grade crossings. Maybe can push the speed envelope if the train can transition to electricity. 

[dcluley98]

Yeah, I hope so. Dual mode locomotives do exist, but I don't know if that is the best operational answer. 

The testing shows that the Charger locomotives are capable of about 130-135MPH (over 200KPH) but the FTA, FRA, and NTSB won't allow it to operate over 125. 

Edited March 2 by dcluley98

[dcluley98]

On 2/28/2024 at 8:34 AM, codypet said:

The study is important as it sets the stage for when environmental permitting and grant funding starts coming around.   So you have to determine that you're doing the most viable project.  And when I say viable, you're balancing cost, socio-economic factors, environmental factors etc.  Hence why everyone assumes OUC is the place to go.  Its already established so the environmental and socio-economic impacts SHOULD be minimal.  I say should because I'm not doing the study so I don't know for sure.  Once it gets bid for design, that's when they're fairly confident funding is coming soon for construction.  

This is my understanding as well. So it seems inefficient, but they must do studies for "Feasibility, Environmental Impact, Operationability, Maintenance, and Best-use-of-Funds" etc. for any funding to occur. While we might think the Sunrail to MCO Intermodal is obvious, often the funding depends upon studies for the overall project. I am not involved in the project or studies whatsoever, I just find it very interesting as a leading HSR project in the US. I have been following along with the studies and the incremental planning of it. 

[aent]

9 hours ago, shardoon said:

Maybe down the road they can get one that can do both? Do they exist? The Orlando to Tampa portion within I4 will be a closed circuit with no at grade crossings. Maybe can push the speed envelope if the train can transition to electricity. 

Brightline has said they're targeting 150mph for Orlando-Tampa expansion

[shardoon]

27 minutes ago, aent said:

Brightline has said they're targeting 150mph for Orlando-Tampa expansion

That is interesting. Then they would need new locomotives........unless they do not intend to use the same trains that go to Miami and a switch of trains would have to happen in Orlando for those Miami to Tampa passengers. 

As crazy as it sounds, especially if there are further expansions to Jacksonville...... the train station may need to be expanded with more platforms. 

Edited March 2 by shardoon

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

As I stated previously, the limitation for Cocoa to OIA is the locomotive. 

So, what is the maximum speed of the current locomotive?