Brightline Trains

[codypet]

That's what's funny about their pricing structure.  Its aimed primarily at flying from Orlando-Miami.  Especially when you're the only person traveling.  The common complaint I hear from people about cost seem to compare it with driving  not flying.  That said, they'll also only compare the gas and/or toll cost to get down there.  Most people comparing car prices with anything seem to forget the cost of ownership of the car itself.

Edited February 21 by codypet

[orlandocity87]

49 minutes ago, codypet said:

That's what's funny about their pricing structure.  Its aimed primarily at flying from Orlando-Miami.  Especially when you're the only person traveling.  The common complaint I hear from people about cost seem to compare it with driving  not flying.  That said, they'll also only compare the gas and/or toll cost to get down there.  Most people comparing car prices with anything seem to forget the cost of ownership of the car itself.

I think people forget the current rate is $0.67/mile, so Orlando to Miami and back is essentially a $262 car ride. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

That's what's funny about their pricing structure.  Its aimed primarily at flying from Orlando-Miami.  Especially when you're the only person traveling.  The common complaint I hear from people about cost seem to compare it with driving  not flying.  That said, they'll also only compare the gas and/or toll cost to get down there.  Most people comparing car prices with anything seem to forget the cost of ownership of the car itself.

wear and tear on your car if you drove it...and the notion of being driven versus driving.  having bathroom access; getting up and walking around...sleeping, napping, socializing...versus...not. lots of intangibles.  I have a buddy that drives all over the country in his own car.  my patience for long distance driving has waned over the years.  so, I would pay the ticket to avoid driving myself...

[shardoon]

I would say our coach was about 80-90% full. The other coaches looked pretty busy as well. I will say, I could have paid half the price if I didn't do first class...... but I had to burn the credit or else the remainder would have expired. 

Edited February 22 by shardoon

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, shardoon said:

I would say our couch was about 80-90% full. The other coaches looked pretty busy as well. I will say, I could have paid half the price if I didn't do first class...... but I had to burn the credit or else the remainder would have expired. 

I would love to see stats like O&D stats, Orlando to Miami and back versus Miami to Orlando and back...where is the demand higher stuff...

[smileguy]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:42 PM, jrs2 said:

I would love to see stats like O&D stats, Orlando to Miami and back versus Miami to Orlando and back...where is the demand higher stuff...

Also the stops in between!  I was going to ride to a birthday weekend in FTL, but the airbnb we got wasn't as walkable to everywhere we wanted to go, so we ended up driving so we had the vehicle down there. 

[cubanbread]

Brightline had its best month yet this January, ridership to Orlando also made up the slight majority of the total trips for the first time as well. That specifically is very encouraging to me because while I'm bullish on Brightline, I did think that the ridership just in the SFLA portion would be higher than the trips to Orlando at least in the short-term so it's very cool to see I was wrong after just a few months of service to Orlando.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/02/23/brightline-central-florida-ridership-miami.html

"The Miami-based company reported 122,703 total passengers during the first month of 2024, the most recent data available, on the long-distance service to and from Orlando International Airport, up slightly from the prior month's total of 115,683. The January long-distance ridership surpassed short-distance ridership in South Florida of 113,560 for the month, making up more than 50% of its ridership for the first time."

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, cubanbread said:

Brightline had its best month yet this January, ridership to Orlando also made up the slight majority of the total trips for the first time as well. That specifically is very encouraging to me because while I'm bullish on Brightline, I did think that the ridership just in the SFLA portion would be higher than the trips to Orlando at least in the short-term so it's very cool to see I was wrong after just a few months of service to Orlando.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/02/23/brightline-central-florida-ridership-miami.html

"The Miami-based company reported 122,703 total passengers during the first month of 2024, the most recent data available, on the long-distance service to and from Orlando International Airport, up slightly from the prior month's total of 115,683. The January long-distance ridership surpassed short-distance ridership in South Florida of 113,560 for the month, making up more than 50% of its ridership for the first time."

that's actually amazing.  like you, I was wondering the same thing. so now, it looks like  there is a 51-49% Orlando versus local SoFla split.  Assuming that short routes within SoFla saw no drop off, this is very profound.  

Do we have any idea what the status is with the Sunshine Corridor?

[codypet]

I'm being told that Brightline's focus behind the scenes right now is LA to Vegas.   Orange County is going to attempt again for the penny sales tax for transportation to help fund the Sunshine Corridor.   This will be interesting because it appears OCPS is looking to drop the existing half penny tax for schools.

Edited February 27 by codypet

[shardoon]

22 minutes ago, codypet said:

I'm being told that Brightline's focus behind the scenes right now is LA to Vegas.   Orange County is going to attempt again for the penny sales tax for transportation to help fund the Sunshine Corridor.   This will be interesting because it appears OCPS is looking to drop the existing half penny tax for schools.

Orange county will fail again. They have not changed the wording at all. Just mention some various road improvements that are very vague. It's a bait and switch again. This tax money can only be used for transportation. Then take an equal amount of money previously earmarked for transportation and do what you please. What is the net result? Same money for transportation, but higher taxes. 

Now, if they really were truthful and wanted to have something on the ballot that I can support, then they should say this money can only be used for transportation and existing transportation funding prior to the tax must be frozen and not decreased. 

[codypet]

10 minutes ago, shardoon said:

Orange county will fail again. They have not changed the wording at all. Just mention some various road improvements that are very vague. It's a bait and switch again. This tax money can only be used for transportation. Then take an equal amount of money previously earmarked for transportation and do what you please. What is the net result? Same money for transportation, but higher taxes. 

Now, if they really were truthful and wanted to have something on the ballot that I can support, then they should say this money can only be used for transportation and existing transportation funding prior to the tax must be frozen and not decreased. 

They HAD a map of what they were planning on doing.  I still am of the opinion that the TDT should be paying for the Sunshine Connector.   A train that connects the Airport to the Tourist District?   Ummmm how does that not serve the tourists?   The dang station is practically on Convention Center property.

[dcluley98]

Brightline's focus is BL West - Rancho Cucamonga to Vegas. They are targeting fast-track of this project to complete in time for the Olympics in 2028. 

The Sunshine Corridor is still in "Review" phase, not yet planning and design phase. They released a TCAR (Transit Concept and Alternate Review) study in order to review the concepts and submit for funding, including FTA and federal grants. 

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4020c1c20b9b4ab98a6acc6cc4a072cd

My understanding is that they can do "portions" of this over time. With there being some benefit to start with the ROW and connection to the existing SunRail first.  They are planning connector lines from SunRail to the Airport as the initial step. This will increase the viability of both SunRail and the existing BL service to Miami, by providing connectivity to DT Orlando, Kissimmee, Winter Park, and all other commuter cities on the existing lines. 

After that, the difficult part of connecting further west to the CC/I-drive and I-4 corridors will happen. Universal pushed for connection to CC/I-drive and said they will donate all the land needed for a station there. 

[cubanbread]

The latest info on Brightline to Tampa came out a couple of months ago and it was that they had created an "affiliate" company called "Brightline Tampa" They then sold some of the assets to this new affiliate that they would then buy back. It is complicated but long story short, it's a common practice businesses use to get through permitting processes faster https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2024/01/23/brightline-central-florida-expansion-airport.html

[dcluley98]

Here is the public meeting/presentation held for the TCAR. They are now wrapping up the TCAR this month to provide a report of the study and findings.  This is critical for the planning and submitting for funding from the FTA, FRA, USDOT, and other sources.

 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Here is the public meeting/presentation held for the TCAR. They are now wrapping up the TCAR this month to provide a report of the study and findings.  This is critical for the planning and submitting for funding from the FTA, FRA, USDOT, and other sources.

 

So, it appears they will have a dedicated train running down from Lynx Central to MCO, and up from Kissimmee station up to MCO, and all stations in between- for the Airport Connector.

But, seriously, people..."transportation equity"?  

[codypet]

David!  He's a good dude!

[shardoon]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

They HAD a map of what they were planning on doing.  I still am of the opinion that the TDT should be paying for the Sunshine Connector.   A train that connects the Airport to the Tourist District?   Ummmm how does that not serve the tourists?   The dang station is practically on Convention Center property.

I never understood the issue with the TDT. It literally would be mainly serving tourists. 

[jrs2]

5 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Brightline's focus is BL West - Rancho Cucamonga to Vegas. They are targeting fast-track of this project to complete in time for the Olympics in 2028. 

The Sunshine Corridor is still in "Review" phase, not yet planning and design phase. They released a TCAR (Transit Concept and Alternate Review) study in order to review the concepts and submit for funding, including FTA and federal grants. 

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4020c1c20b9b4ab98a6acc6cc4a072cd

My understanding is that they can do "portions" of this over time. With there being some benefit to start with the ROW and connection to the existing SunRail first.  They are planning connector lines from SunRail to the Airport as the initial step. This will increase the viability of both SunRail and the existing BL service to Miami, by providing connectivity to DT Orlando, Kissimmee, Winter Park, and all other commuter cities on the existing lines. 

After that, the difficult part of connecting further west to the CC/I-drive and I-4 corridors will happen. Universal pushed for connection to CC/I-drive and said they will donate all the land needed for a station there. 

BL can do BL West for now...time-wise, I agree...get it up and running... but we can do Mainline to MCO now, and leave Sunshine Corridor for a little bit later (work out the kinks of the route, etc.).

That MCO Connector is of course huge.  You can take Sunrail from any one of those stations, get to MCO, and get on BL or a flight...and vice versa.  This could really open up DTO to some tourism dollars they aren't currently getting.  More people coming to DTO and not just for The Magic (as an opponent to The Heat) or the Soccer matches as well.  Maybe Da U in a neutral site game....or people wanting to catch a show at DPAC or KIA Center.

MCO Airport Connector or bust...

[dcluley98]

I agree, of course. Which is why I said start with that first as a phased portion. However, a lot of the project is contingent upon funding, and the studies/plans need to be done ahead of time to submit for that potential funding. 

[shardoon]

Stuart won. They are getting the next station. They are also getting a higher bridge that has a 16 foot clearance double tracked...... up from single track 6 foot clearance. 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I agree, of course. Which is why I said start with that first as a phased portion. However, a lot of the project is contingent upon funding, and the studies/plans need to be done ahead of time to submit for that potential funding. 

So, the Mainline to MCO is proposed now as the first phase of Sunshine Corridor.  Is that right?  And if so, can they apply for and get funding for this initial phase even if the Fed doesn't approve the full project for funding (even if at later phases)?

In other words, is applying for Mainline to MCO...as part of Sunshine Corridor...does it give it a better chance of funding than if it was just proposed as a....for the time being..."stand alone project"?

[dcluley98]

No, there are not plans finished, so not defined as phases. 

I am saying they should phase it, given that the ROW and OUC tracks already exist for that to happen. Run that connection first to get BL to MCO, with a larger transfer station (they call Sunshine Station) in the first phase. That will get the project underway and revenue started first, to then develop the connection for the rest of the ROW to get to the Convention Center. 

It is by far the most ready and least complicated part of the project as well as the most critical connection. It only makes sense to phase it and start with that first. However, that has not been planned yet. 

It will take a full study and review in order to apply for funding, and then the design, phasing, schedule, and bidding/cost will occur. 

If they are smart, they will do the overall master-plan study and also a broken out first phase plan for that connector to apply for incremental funding, IMO. I just think they are early on in the "Study" phase and not to the point of presenting phased plans for grants/budget funding.  @codypet might be able to explain more about this process from a large project/civil background. 

[jrs2]

22 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

No, there are not plans finished, so not defined as phases. 

I am saying they should phase it, given that the ROW and OUC tracks already exist for that to happen. Run that connection first to get BL to MCO, with a larger transfer station (they call Sunshine Station) in the first phase. That will get the project underway and revenue started first, to then develop the connection for the rest of the ROW to get to the Convention Center. 

It is by far the most ready and least complicated part of the project as well as the most critical connection. It only makes sense to phase it and start with that first. However, that has not been planned yet. 

It will take a full study and review in order to apply for funding, and then the design, phasing, schedule, and bidding/cost will occur. 

If they are smart, they will do the overall master-plan study and also a broken out first phase plan for that connector to apply for incremental funding, IMO. I just think they are early on in the "Study" phase and not to the point of presenting phased plans for grants/budget funding.  @codypet might be able to explain more about this process from a large project/civil background. 

Gotcha.  I am shocked that they haven't done that study yet for Mainline to MCO, especially when there was already talk and articles about that OUC's expectations were for payment from like more than 6 years ago.  Maybe they were too focused on Sunrail Phase II to Poinciana and then Sunrail Phase I pushed back to Phase III to DeLand, which started last year...  I mean, when The Intermodal Center started construction and opened in like, when, 2017 or 2018?, you would think, after they got that money from FDOT and/or DOT, they would have spearheaded Mainline to MCO.  Maybe the covid thing slowed that process down...dunno.

[dcluley98]

31 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Gotcha.  I am shocked that they haven't done that study yet for Mainline to MCO, especially when there was already talk and articles about that OUC's expectations were for payment from like more than 6 years ago.  Maybe they were too focused on Sunrail Phase II to Poinciana and then Sunrail Phase I pushed back to Phase III to DeLand, which started last year...  I mean, when The Intermodal Center started construction and opened in like, when, 2017 or 2018?, you would think, after they got that money from FDOT and/or DOT, they would have spearheaded Mainline to MCO.  Maybe the covid thing slowed that process down...dunno.

Studies now will be entirely different, given that there is now existing service from MCO to points south with HSR.  Funding comes in chunks/allocations with studies and proposals needed each time to qualify and bid for them. 

[codypet]

13 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

If they are smart, they will do the overall master-plan study and also a broken out first phase plan for that connector to apply for incremental funding, IMO. I just think they are early on in the "Study" phase and not to the point of presenting phased plans for grants/budget funding.  @codypet might be able to explain more about this process from a large project/civil background. 

The study is important as it sets the stage for when environmental permitting and grant funding starts coming around.   So you have to determine that you're doing the most viable project.  And when I say viable, you're balancing cost, socio-economic factors, environmental factors etc.  Hence why everyone assumes OUC is the place to go.  Its already established so the environmental and socio-economic impacts SHOULD be minimal.  I say should because I'm not doing the study so I don't know for sure.  Once it gets bid for design, that's when they're fairly confident funding is coming soon for construction.