Wachovia South Tryon Projects

[Sabaidee]

No Wachovia isn't go nowhere soon or ever, it just speculations from board members who have read articles mentioning how Wachovia might want to merge with another bank.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

When will they break ground?????

[A2]

When will they break ground?????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AUD, they are hoping to break ground as soon as the city determines if they are going to assist in the arts portion of the deal. If and when that happens they are going to break ground. Even if the city backs out, WB is going to build a skraper, it would just be much smaller in size and scope. From the memo we received, WB is wanting to have the project complete in 08'. That means they need to get started ASAP. I would put my money on the end of 05'. JMHO though.

B)

A2

[cha]

do they have any renderings of the buildings besides the 3d colored shapes?

[A2]

do they have any renderings of the buildings besides the 3d colored shapes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no rederings yet, but I think Childress Kline is going to be tighter than fort knox until they know which direction they are going to be going. There are probably two rederings that already exist. One redering for IF the city jumps on board with the arts package, and one redering if they don't.

A2

[appatone]

I went leafing through the thread but couldn't find the answer to my question so I guess I'll ask it. Does anyone have an idea of when the city will give its answer on the funding?

[A2]

I went leafing through the thread but couldn't find the answer to my question so I guess I'll ask it.

[CharlotteDemonDeacon]

I read somewhere that the county commissioners meeting was going to decide if they would or would not do the arts package during last weeks meeting. After then waiting through 4 hours of meeting they ultimately decided by one vote to "enter into" talks/negotions with WB concerning the county's participation in the package. However, one of the Republicans noted that the language sounded like they were voting to commit the funds and a Democrat sidestepped the issue and they all kind of just agreed that it meant they would continue considering it and would make a decision at their next meeting on August 8th (i think) even though that is past the Aug. 1st deadline WB set. Don't know if that is helpful, but if not just wait for them to replay the meeting on Channel 16 and fast forward to the last hour of the meeting.

[skysdalimit]

I swear, if they do not approve this thing, I will give them each a very special call.

[catdaddy]

I bet you they will raise the hieght.

[NCtarheel]

I swear, if they do not approve this thing, I will give them each a very special call.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it possible to go online somewhere and let them know what we think? I'm assuming most of the people in this thread are in support of the city supporting the arts portion of this project.

[atlrvr]

Is it possible to go online somewhere and let them know what we think? I'm assuming most of the people in this thread are in support of the city supporting the arts portion of this project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/City+C...Information.htm

There is the e-mail address and home mailing address of the mayor and every councilman.....let them know....ESPECIALLY the one who represents your district.

[monsoon]

Is it possible to go online somewhere and let them know what we think? I'm assuming most of the people in this thread are in support of the city supporting the arts portion of this project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I don't. Wachovia is going to build the tower regardless. What is at question is should the County excuse 80% of the building from the property tax so the money can be used to fund the ASC. It is a underhanded way to fund the ASC which has generally failed for decades to convince the public they are deserving of so much tax money. I say let them get in line with everyone else in the County who requests public money for their projects. Keep in mind the County just raised the County property tax by 10% because they don't have enough money for schools, public infrastructure and multitudes of other projects.

It is amazing to me that people never ever look into the facts behind the matter and are happy to let the special interests gain control of their tax money.

Want to run people and businesses out of the county, well keep raising the taxes here.

[dxartist]

I just hope the new Wachovia tower has more flair than 1,2 or 3. I'm kinda tired of the box design. I want the new building to stick out say 45 stories plus with a neo-gothic look, but that will not happen.

[catdaddy]

I say 15% and the companys will start running.

[Sabaidee]

It's not only property taxes, the state also has a low corporate and income tax. Though our sales tax is a little high, but not like Chicago's, they just had an increase this July to 9%, the highest in the nation.

[monsoon]

The point was not that they would leave NC, but instead cross the county line to avoid taxes if Mecklenburg county keeps raising taxes. Maybe this is the reason the Lowes Home Improvement stores located their new HQ just across the line in Iredell county.

[hueion39]

Actually I don't.

[CharlotteDemonDeacon]

A few notes about the $300 million to $100 million argument:

-Won't most of that increase come from their construction of 600 condo units? Which, if built by 2008 like the tower, would almost certainly mean that another condo tower project would stall (perhaps the Vue?)

-Given the rapid increase in crime and decline in CMS wouldn't it be foolish to forego a guarantee on property tax on a $100mm building for the next twenty five years. Especially if it meant that another $100mm building (one of the condo towers that might be built if wachovia doesnt build their 600) would be built anyways to add to the tax base (this is especially likely given the overzealous high rise anouncements).

-There is a strain on providing new services from our existing tax base. If we use the property taxes on this project for arts we will have 600 residential units which won't be contributing ANY property taxes to the services they require (schools, security, waste disposal).

-If the taxes are used for the arts it is saying that the best and highest use of our taxes is arts programs (does anyone here honestly believe this to be true?) I mean if you were given a list of priorities for your taxes would you put arts at the top? I highly doubt it. This would not be an issue if we had a budget surplus, but we most certainly do not.

-If property taxes have to be raised in the future because we forego the income on this and the $60mm BofA project, won't it be even harder to convince new businesses to come to Charlotte? This is an especially important point considering that we seem to be losing lots of businesses to surrounding counties and SC.

Anyways I'll stop rambling, but this isn't as much of a slam dunk issue as I think people perceive it to be.

[A2]

A few notes about the $300 million to $100 million argument:

-Won't most of that increase come from their construction of 600 condo units?

[atlrvr]

A few notes about the $300 million to $100 million argument:

-Won't most of that increase come from their construction of 600 condo units?  Which, if built by 2008 like the tower, would almost certainly mean that another condo tower project would stall (perhaps the Vue?)

-Given the rapid increase in crime and decline in CMS wouldn't it be foolish to forego a guarantee on property tax on a $100mm building for the next twenty five years.  Especially if it meant that another $100mm building (one of the condo towers that might be built if wachovia doesnt build their 600) would be built anyways to add to the tax base (this is especially likely given the overzealous high rise anouncements).

-There is a strain on providing new services from our existing tax base.  If we use the property taxes on this project for arts we will have 600 residential units which won't be contributing ANY property taxes to the services they require (schools, security, waste disposal). 

-If the taxes are used for the arts it is saying that the best and highest use of our taxes is arts programs (does anyone here honestly believe this to be true?)  I mean if you were given a list of priorities for your taxes would you put arts at the top?  I highly doubt it.  This would not be an issue if we had a budget surplus, but we most certainly do not.

-If property taxes have to be raised in the future because we forego the income on this and the $60mm BofA project, won't it be even harder to convince new businesses to come to Charlotte?  This is an especially important point considering that we seem to be losing lots of businesses to surrounding counties and SC.

Anyways I'll stop rambling, but this isn't as much of a slam dunk issue as I think people perceive it to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to address a few of the points.

#1 - Wachovia isn't a developer. They have even less interest in becoming a condo developer. This is relvent because you are assuming that thier condo project will compete directly with The Vue. While there may be some competition, remember, The Vue will be marketed starting in a couple of months, while Wachovia likely hasn't even considered floor plans. Additionally, Wachovia doesn't need to sell out before they start construction. In fact, being their own lender, there is no great urgency to "out-sell" other projects. This being said, The Vue and other announced projects will succeed or fail based on their own merits.

#2 - It is faulty to assume that building these condos downtown is a net deficit to the operating budget. Anyone who is likely to purchase a condo here will likely purchase a condo elsewhere in the city of Charlotte if not here. Essentially, there will be supply to capture demand, and it would be most prudent for this demand to be captured in an area with already adequate infrastructure, rather than in an area where roads, sewers, water mains, etc will have to be enhanced to adequately serve the new demand. Also, the school district would be filling under-utilized schools rather than stressing suburban ones that are at capacity (though most condo buyers downtown use private schools, so it is really a non-issue)

#3 - Are arts the most pressing issue? No. That's why they aren't suggesting that this package be paid for out of the existing budget. If Wachovia would like to contribute more to the tax rolls for the sake of an issue that they obviously view as critical to recruitment and retition of qulity workers, then perhaps they should be allowed that opportunity.

#4 - Are we more concerned about losing back-office jobs to SC (who is still in the metro area, and presumeably still spending at least some money in NC), or are we interested in losing top-dollar executive jobs to NYC or San Francisco because we are perceived as not being corporate friendly and not supportive of cultural institutions.

[dubone]

i don't know why this is coming across as anything FOR WB. It seems to me that WB is simply provide a vehicle for funding what is otherwise a public/city responsibility. If this funding scheme is not used, not only with the city lose out on the more valuable project, but they will still be faced with the arts need that they must come up with a way to pay for.

By doing little more than giving a discount on net-new taxes, the city gets more economic activity, they get the new taxes that aren't discounted, they get arts in a prime location that they could otherwise not have afforded, and they meet an arts need that would eventually need to be funded.

[CharlotteDemonDeacon]

Not sure I'm completely sold on the value of the arts, but I stand corrected in that most of my conclusions were based on the erroneous assumption that the condo property taxes would be put towards the arts.

[A2]

i don't know why this is coming across as anything FOR WB.  It seems to me that WB is simply provide a vehicle for funding what is otherwise a public/city responsibility.  If this funding scheme is not used, not only with the city lose out on the more valuable project, but they will still be faced with the arts need that they must come up with a way to pay for.

By doing little more than giving a discount on net-new taxes, the city gets more economic activity, they get the new taxes that aren't discounted, they get arts in a prime location that they could otherwise not have afforded, and they meet an arts need that would eventually need to be funded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN to that dubone. I like the way you talk ! I hope the city sees it this way. B)

A2

[A2]

Not sure I'm completely sold on the value of the arts, but I stand corrected in that most of my conclusions were based on the erroneous assumption that the condo property taxes would be put towards the arts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No big deal CDD. I would have assumed that too since it is more or less lumped into the whole project. If you look at the arguments on both sides, they tend to refer to the project as one entity versus individual projects within one large developmet.