Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[orulz]

not sure where to put this, but there's a sweet rendering of gateway station in the center city partners development report. could be old, but new to me!

I assume this is the sweet rendering you're talking about? Yeah- definitely sweet.

[dubone]

Independence will look like it does now between Wendover and Sharon Amity. Crossroads will be bridges and quasi-cloverleafs. There will be 3 through lanes. There will be a 4th lane that will end and begin at each cloverleaf. That 4th lane will also serve as the merge lane for all of the driveways to businesses along the way.

This will be an expressway in that it won't have traffic lights, but it will not be a freeway because it is not limited access. That is, all or most of the current driveway cuts will remain.

I personally disagree with this strategy, believing they should make it limited access with a service road. But that isn't what is happening.

Here are the designs for the interchanges that lupita was referring to.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...d+Alignment.htm

[orulz]

That would make it a Jersey Freeway, like the last few miles of Capital Boulevard heading south into downtown Raleigh.

It's interesting to note that this early 1950s-era freeway in Raleigh has sidewalks for much of this segment. How many "freeways" do you know of that have sidewalks?

[Mobuchu]

Anyone know how old that rendering is? Love how the Polk building site looks.

note: they still have the 8 acre park in this, just the corner

[lupitachica]

I

think you said earlier that it will be an expressway with some of the businesses staying, but after driving down Indy yesterday alot of them seem to close to the hwy (IMO)

I totally agree. Why is all that grass necessary? 2 feet of grass on either side of a 2 ft walkway makes no sense to me.

I have friend that bought property near that Amtrak station on North Tryon for cheap. If the plans move forward for that Gateway Station, I think she's made a very sound investment.

[monsoon]

I have friend that bought property near that Amtrak station on North Tryon for cheap. If the plans move forward for that Gateway Station, I think she's made a very sound investment.

I am not quite sure I understand that one. The Amtrak station on N. Tryon will close and the land will be vacant.

[uptownliving]

I have friend that bought property near that Amtrak station on North Tryon for cheap. If the plans move forward for that Gateway Station, I think she's made a very sound investment.

That probably will be a wise investment since they plan to move that rail yard out to the airport and redevelop that whole area into TOD.

[dubone]

As metro was saying, Gateway Station will go on Trade Street near Gateway village and Johnson and Wales. The N Tryon location was a failure, so they are moving it to uptown.

But if your friend is into providing services for homeless people, she's found a great spot.

I do agree with U/L that eventually that area will see a turn. However, I was corrected before on UP about the notion that the rail yard was moving (which I believed for a long long time). Apparently, it is only the train to truck multimodal yards that are moving. Those are the large truck lots along Brevard in Optimist Park. The rail yards for train to train transfers will remain. I sure hope I am wrong.

[Skyline49er]

I know this doesn't relate to the topic, but since we are talking about the area I will ask my question.

Has J&W started construction on their new business school? I remember seeing signs for it to be open by next school year and I was just wondering if they have started on it yet.

Also, if the MTC decides to build the northeast line next, will this delay the building of the Gateway station? Sorry if this has been posted before, I just can't remember.

[dubone]

J&W: No.

Gateway station's timing will have nothing to do with any CATS timetable. In fact, the north line to LKN will be able to be built without Gateway Station if the timing is off.

[Skyline49er]

J&W: No.

Gateway station's timing will have nothing to do with any CATS timetable. In fact, the north line to LKN will be able to be built without Gateway Station if the timing is off.

Thanks Dubone. I remember seeing the signs for that building almost two years ago.

[monsoon]

According to the NCDOT website, GWS is a $200M project. I have not seen where the state has committed any money to that project though if it and the North line is built, part of the money alloted to the North line construction will be used to build GSW. It is a complicated set of funding when it does happen, because if the Feds dole out money for the North line that money can't be used on the non-CR parts of the station, and the state is not likely to fund the office building portion of GSW which will most likely be paid for by CATS. That could involved a separate set of funding from the city of Charlotte which thus far, has turned down CATS request to build offices to relocate there. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

[uptownliving]

The first step for the Gateway project is for the new Greyhound bus station and parking deck to be built on 4th St. I remember reading somewhere that will start in 2007.

[dubone]

CATS told me that the Greyhound part was approved, and all systems were go.

The feds have given some money to the Gateway Station project over the years, but maybe that was just planning.

As to 'any money', the state is giving it incremental funds for each of the next 4 years according to the TIP. But as of yet, they haven't agreed to fund the entirety of it.

If I am reading it right, CATS and NCDOT will be spending $20.7m each total through 2009. The federal government will be spending $165.6m total through 2009.

Page 23 or "10-25" in:

http://www.ncdot.org/planning/development/...s/pdf/div10.pdf

[lupitachica]

As metro was saying, Gateway Station will go on Trade Street near Gateway village and Johnson and Wales. The N Tryon location was a failure, so they are moving it to uptown.

But if your friend is into providing services for homeless people, she's found a great spot.

The area is already seeing improvements as quite a few homes on her street have been purchased by middle class professionals of varying ethnic backgrounds and are being renovated. It may prove to be a good mix of old timers and new - working class and professionals (similar to a Fort Greene kind of area). Yes the area is a bit rough now but a transition is taking place. Its proximity to "uptown" which I see as the "Wall Street" area of Charlotte is excellent - and there are quite a few homeless & troubled people Uptown.

I was wrongly under the impression that the Gateway station was going to be at the old Amtrak location (which would've been great) but the fact that its not is still cool. You would think that they would create the Gateway hub and make the current station a stop along the route but whatever. I think my friend's hope is that her property location coupled with upcoming improvements in public transportation would make an area not more than a 5 minute ride from the financial center of the city attractive. I don't think its a bad gamble.

[cinco]

The area is already seeing improvements as quite a few homes on her street have been purchased by middle class professionals of varying ethnic backgrounds and are being renovated. It may prove to be a good mix of old timers and new - working class and professionals (similar to a Fort Greene kind of area). Yes the area is a bit rough now but a transition is taking place. Its proximity to "uptown" which I see as the "Wall Street" area of Charlotte is excellent - and there are quite a few homeless & troubled people Uptown.

I was wrongly under the impression that the Gateway station was going to be at the old Amtrak location (which would've been great) but the fact that its not is still cool. You would think that they would create the Gateway hub and make the current station a stop along the route but whatever. I think my friend's hope is that her property location coupled with upcoming improvements in public transportation would make an area not more than a 5 minute ride from the financial center of the city attractive. I don't think its a bad gamble.

well if your friend got the property @ a good price and is able to weather some area transitions... i think she'll be happy with her investment return. this area has some amazing older industrial sites, brownfields, and warehouses that are within close proximity to uptown. i personally see this area undergoing a renissance before places like hoskins rd. and even biddleville. while there is quite a bit of crime surrounding these parts, one can't help but to notice the north davidson progress working it's way over to tryon. this area will feel the the ripple effect of north line LRT.

maybe your friend is proactive and wants to be a part of the initial lead to spur positive growth? that would be great and purposeful. someone has to get the ball rolling... i wish her good luck.

[lupitachica]

She got the property for an excellent price, imo.

I'm assuming that any northern rail line will have to pass through and make a stop in that area. As the connection to Uptown improves, I think this will cause property values to jump tremendously.

As far a crime goes, as a visitor, I didn't feel uncomfortable. Its the hood and there are many nice people who live there but simply don't have the assets to renovate their homes. From what she's said, the neighbors try to watch out for each other - she feels pretty safe coming home & being there alone.

[monsoon]

This is the proposed alignment in the area you are interested in. It has not been cast in stone yet, so if you would like to see a change I recommend going to future public meetings. It's my feeling that it is going to be a number of years before we see this section built so there might be time to make some changes if there is enough support. The solid Blue Line is the part known as Blue Line North which is just a proposal at this point. The dotted grey line is the Blue Line South, which is the portion that is currently under construction.

[MZT]

Just a few weeks more, to when the "30 day cooling off" period expires on that SE line decision. Wonder how the south line's cost overruns will play into things...

[monsoon]

^Hmm. I don't know, but to fire up the issue more, here is a report just out from lightrailnow.org, where they have concluded that BRT does not attract the ridership that LRT does. There is another study on that site that states that BRT does not save any money in the long run over LRT.

Rail Transit vs. "Bus Rapid Transit" Comparative Success and Potential in Attracting Ridership

[atlrvr]

Thanks for that article....these have been the points I have been preaching....plus some.

I really wish I could find my favorite article. In it, it states that BRT systems on average only achieve ~35% of expected ridership based on modeling submitted to the FTA, while LRT attracts ~115% on average.

The point is, all the models, and "in a vacuum" arguements can't take into account human perception and actions. Planners expect a logical reaction, and that's the mistake....humans make illogical choices based on extenuating factors.

[monsoon]

The promises of low cost transit via BRT in the United States is based on a travel study to Curitiba, Brazil in the 90s where they constructed a rather unique homegrown transit system based on articulated buses on dedicated busways. Buses arrive every 90 seconds during rush hour and handle about 230 people. They figured out there were significant delays in standard buses caused by people purchasing fares on the bus and everyone entering single file though one entrance. So they redesigned these articulated buses to have several doors like a LRV and tickes are instead prepurchased. They claimed it was a very low cost system and did not require government subsidies.

I've seen a film of this system and it does look impressive for what it does vs the resources invested in it.

The travel study also left impressed and hence the FTA began pushing similar systems here in the USA. But they missed several important things. First and most important, US cities are not built like Curitiba. Curitiba is a city crowded beyond what would be accepted in the USA. Wages are very low in Brazil and the costs to build that line would be unrealistic here not to mention there is a pretty good chance the books have been cooked by local officials. And in the USA there are safety and other standards that were not built into the Curitiba system which also affect costs. Finally, they also missed the fact that ridership has been falling on the Curitiba sysem because as the middle class grows they can afford other means of transit and these people prefer not to ride on very crowded standing room only buses.

Unfortunately the people at CATS have bought the BRT story without recognizing the very significant faults. I have change my position on this now that I have studied it more and hope they go with the LRT option.

[uptownliving]

Personally I don't think the question has been which one people prefer. But rather which one can we afford. If we decide to do LRT along this route and don't get any FTA support then that means we would be spending 5 times as much local tax money on this line than the current South line. Would that be politically palitable to everyone else in the county? I don't think so. And the reality is that when you throw in the street car and the Independence Blvd Freeway conversion...then the East side would be getting WAY more money thrown at it than any other corridor. Yes, LRT is more desirible, but can we afford it? I would say no.

[atlrvr]

Well.....I would support LRT even if it drug out over a much longer period, or had to be phased.....assuming the 35% vs. 115% ridership held true based on CATS estimates, then we are paying much more per passenger mile for BRT than LRT.

I just think shoving a system into an area where people say they don't want it is a huge waste...oh well, I guess we'll find out soon enough what is decided.

[dubone]

Independence was never a corridor that suited rail transit. To me, CATS wanted BRT so they picked Independence as the corridor. Then when LRT was studied for the corridor, BRT won, as LRT is not cost effective on Independence. Dense transit oriented development will not find the same success on Independence Expressway as it does on South Blvd's side streets.

Independence will get a transit way even if CATS hadn't planned anything for the corridor. It is clearly part of the Expressway project to build transit lanes, so why not just let evolve as it does, and let that be the enhanced bus route, just as the 77's HOV lanes are the enhanced bus service while the mass rapid transit is the commuter line.

I believe a transit line down the middle of Independence is only suited for busses. If we want trains in the corridor, which we all do, CATS need to pick a different corridor.

Commuter Rail to Monroe along the CSX line would solve many problems. Not only would it allow the corridor to extend to the real source of population, Union County, but it would be able to connect with all the the other transit lines. It could very connect to the Purple/North commuter rail line at Gateway Station, the Blue NE/S LRT line behind Alpha Mill, then the streetcar line at Central/Hawthorne.

The eastside would then have BRT, an expressway, a streetcar, and a commuter line. The CSX rail line would also be closer to serve the Providence Road corridor and Union County which the current plans do not well serve.

Ironically, the concerns with LRT on the CSX tracks are that they need to correct much of the right of way, as it isn't as convenient as the line along South Blvd. But, I believe rail on the CSX line would be able to add density, and cost much less than LRT on Independence. I would bet that for the cost of LRT on Indy, we could actually get both the BRT line on Indy and a commuter rail line to Monroe, that would serve eastern Charlotte much better.