Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[monsoon]

The NE line is an extension to the blue line under construction. It would not seem likely they would approve a $600M extension to it, before the current line has even carried one passenger.

On a not quite unrelated note, the TTA has withdrawn plans to seek federal approval and funding of its commuter rail line in the Triangle. Instead it appears they are going to go the private/public route as they could not get the ridership numbers to work with the new rules in place. It should be noted the current blue line would not have qualified under the new rules either. Thus something like this could be in store for some of Charlotte's future transit needs.

[monsoon]

On the agenda for this Wednesday's MTC meeting (August 23rd) is the decision to be made on the technology that will be used for the the Southeast and West lines. In the case of the Southeast, the decision is light rail vs bus rapid transit, and in the case of the West the decision is bus rapid transit vs street cars.

In both cases CATS is recommending BRT.

This will really be the first good indication (of several to come in the next couple of months) on how much politics will come into the MTC's decision making process.

[uptownliving]

CATS recomending BRT for the SE line seems to be a no brainer, but their recomendation of BRT for the West line is quite a surprise. At the last meeting they were hinting that they would only do Enhanced Bus for the West line, not BRT. Do you have a link to CATS official recomendations?

[monsoon]

CATS recomending BRT for the SE line seems to be a no brainer, but their recomendation of BRT for the West line is quite a surprise. At the last meeting they were hinting that they would only do Enhanced Bus for the West line, not BRT. Do you have a link to CATS official recomendations?

CATS presents a lot of info at their community meetings, but they are pretty bad about not making it available online and when they do, it's hidden away where it is hard to find. During their Aug 1 community meeting it was pretty clear they were going to go with the BRT alternative for the West line. Have a look at this link. The only chart that matters can be found on the right side of this page.

In summary:

• Street Car -$185M - Ridership 3800 - Low Cost Effectiveness

• BRT - $105M - Ridership 4200 - Medium Cost Effectiveness

Steet Cars cost more to build, more to operate and have lower ridership for the West line.

Barring any surprises I would expect the MTC to go with the BRT approach because they have no hopes of getting the Street Car alternative funded.

[uptownliving]

Yeah that is all the same info I saw at the last MTC meeting. Something I think is important from the link you provided and was also discussed at the MTC meeting is this:

Bus Rapid Transit in the median lane of Wilkinson Boulevard would produce minimal time savings. Traffic making right-hand turns could impede transit service. Costly intersection improvements are needed for BRT and this could adversely affect pedestrians by requiring a greater distance to cross Wilkinson Boulevard. NCDOT eliminated consideration of using an existing lane for the exclusive guideway needed for BRT.

After the presentation Mayor McCrory stated that he didn't think anymore taxpayer money should be spent on the West Corridor. I would have to agree with McCrory that it doesn't make sense to spend $100M+ for something that would bring "minimal" improvement over running a regular bus down Wilkinson.

By nixing the West line it makes the rest of the lines more feasible.

For the SE line Rep Robin Hayes has thrown his support behind Light Rail. The Matthews Mayor has stated that he will vote for Light Rail even if it means the SE line is the last one to be built. The politics will be very interesting to watch tomorrow.

[monsoon]

I wasn't aware they might eliminate one of the transit corridors, but I guess anything is possible however it sends a clear signal to the west side that government isn't interested in it. I think a no build is going to be very difficult to explain to these residents.

[uptownliving]

Well they would be getting the Enhanced Bus to the Airport which would be an improvement over what they have today. I have taken bus #5 to and from the airport a number of times and I am looking forward to the Enhanced Service. The BRT or Streetcar is not something I would be interested in taking to the airport becasue it would involve having to switch buses to get to the terminal...whereas currently you ride one bus from downtown that drops you off right at the terminal. For me, and the rest of the people that would be riding this to get to the airport it would be a decrease in service level.

I do think it would be feasible to run a streetcar out to the Radiator Specialty Company redevelopment site...or even all the way to the Ashely Rd Wal-Mart...but it doesnt make sense to run it all the way to the airport. Transit depends on people to work and people just don't live out by the airport in a density to justify it. Due to the noise generated by the airport that transit supportitve density probably will never matieralize.

Regarding the politics of nixing the West line...the only one on the MTC that would really be on the hook would be Parks Helms, and he is nearing the end of his political career anyways. McCrory historically has gotten little votes from the West side and nixing the West line would have little effect on his political career. Huntersville Mayor Philips also agreed with McCrory that the West line doesnt make sense at this time.

[Mobuchu]

I do think it would be feasible to run a streetcar out to the Radiator Specialty Company redevelopment site...or even all the way to the Ashely Rd Wal-Mart...but it doesnt make sense to run it all the way to the airport. Transit depends on people to work and people just don't live out by the airport in a density to justify it. Due to the noise generated by the airport that transit supportitve density probably will never matieralize.

Not a bad idea. One of the streetcar spurs was to run down Cedar st. anyway right? They could just turn that onto Morehead and go out from there. Maybe they could bump this spur up in place of the West line. Of course we need the Beaties ford/Trade/Central streetcar built first.

[uptownliving]

In today's Observer there is an article stating that the Matthews Mayor has done an about face and will support BRT for the SE Line. This all but seals the deal for BRT along Independence.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/15337616.htm

Charlotte City Council woman Nancy Carter still hasn't given up the fight and says she will make every effort to delay the contracts when they come to the City Council for approval. She does hold significant sway on the council and is part of the majority party...she could make it happen. Looks like the political fireworks we were expecting at the MTC meeting have now moved over to the City Council.

[ChiefJoJo]

That is silly if you ask me. BRT is well over $200M cheaper than LRT, but somehow the politicians can't stomach the thought of a bus, even if it's more cheaper, draws more riders, and can be flexibly built in phases along with Independence (LRT cannot). Talk about wasteful politics. It's a no brainer. Pick BRT and be done with it. I'm glad to see Mayor Myers and the town made a smart decision. In fact, TTA's decision this week may prove just what the BRT supporters wanted, as it shows how a project can be stalled as costs rise.

[sfmartin]

That is silly if you ask me. BRT is well over $200M cheaper than LRT, but somehow the politicians can't stomach the thought of a bus, even if it's more cheaper, draws more riders, and can be flexibly built in phases along with Independence (LRT cannot). Talk about wasteful politics. It's a no brainer. Pick BRT and be done with it. I'm glad to see Mayor Myers and the town made a smart decision. In fact, TTA's decision this week may prove just what the BRT supporters wanted, as it shows how a project can be stalled as costs rise.

Silly may be too strong a word. If they go with BRT there is almost sure to be no real re-development along that transit corridor. Everyone on this board gets excited about what we see along the Lynx line - millions in development. Folks out East would like to see some of that as well, or at least hope for it ... BRT would crush those hopes.

I don't know what the hard numbers are (though I'm sure they've been posted here) but based on the sampling of people I've talked to ridership for BRT would be lower, enthusiasm certainly is. No one wants to "hop on the bus!"

[MZT]

People often say that the council districts are gerrymandered and uncompetitive. But I think of all the council members, Nancy would be the most easily displaced by a serious challenger. So she needs to make some noise to show she "deserves" re-election.

[Norm2]

We dont need to see new devlopment along Independence Blvd. We need to see more development along Central where the streetcar is going to go. Independence is being converted into an expressway, and IMO why have businesses on an expressway? In my perfect world all of the business on Independence would be torn down and would move to Central Ave.

[monsoon]

Apparently the MTC was unable to decide on BRT for the SE line, so the decision has been delayed by 30 days. They may very well get light rail. It's interesting that McCroy seemed to have little sway in the this particular decision.

It also sounds as if the West is going to get a BRT line.

[Mobuchu]

West is getting Streetcar, Cats recommended streetcar and nobody on the council opposed, and there was really no discussion on it.

Cats locally preferred alternative for the SE line was BRT. But the Matthews mayor did not agree and moved for LRT. After some back and forth discussion between the Huntersville mayor and the Matthews mayor, Parks Helms suggested a 30 day delay. After the Matthews mayor gave his initial reasons why he was against BRT, McCrory gave a little speach (with good points) that pretty much killed the LRT idea, but they will wait 30 days anyway and basically vote for BRT then. (so it seems for right now).

[MZT]

Maybe the Matthews mayor caught some "heat" for saying in the paper he was ready to vote BRT. So he makes some bluster for his constituents tonight.

Sounds like the die is cast, though. Where is the money going to come from for LRT? Matthews will probably be steamrolled by the rest of the MTC.

Then we get to see how any remaining bitterness plays out on the NE line vote.

[e2ksj3]

We dont need to see new devlopment along Independence Blvd. We need to see more development along Central where the streetcar is going to go. Independence is being converted into an expressway, and IMO why have businesses on an expressway? In my perfect world all of the business on Independence would be torn down and would move to Central Ave.

That's what I've been thinking the whole time. I don't think we'll see any real TOD along Independence Blvd like on the South Corridor line. The road will be built to near interstate standards with no traffic lights and entrance and exit ramps and will probably serve more commuters than anything else.

[monsoon]

Apparently it was US Representative Robin Hayes that asked Park Helms for the delay so the MTC voted to grant the delay. It sounds as if Hayes, who is a Republican up for re-election in Congress, is listening to the people that want LRT. I am not sure what they hope to accomplish by this, but considering they are going to need Congress to pay for 50% of this line, there might be something in the works that we don't know about.

The local news is reporting the west corridor is going to be BRT so I guess they might be wrong on that one. They do tend to let things get drowned out and the fight over the SE line apparently has done that. If anything they did not vote to kill the West Corridor, so McCroy's wishes to end this project, as noted above, did not go anywhere either.

[GamecockEngineer]

Maybe I'm a little too optimistic on the issue, but I think BRT is going to be a whole lot better than most people think. It's more than just a bus line in terms of realiablity and service. Plus, hopefully it will be designed in a way that a conversion to LRT would not be too difficult. They should also busses will look more like the rail cars. Asthetics can give something a whole different feel.

[uptownliving]

Well not exactly. They voted in favor of the Streetcar for the West line for the "long term". It is important to note they didn't use the term "long term" when they were talking about the SE line. I think that "long term" is code for the streetcar may never get built, or if it does, it will be one of the last lines implemented. What is actually going to happen is that the current Airport bus will be upgraded with a streamlined route and increased frequency. Then in the near to mid term they will start using Enhanced Bus for Wilkinson, West, Tyvola, and Freedom. Enhanced Bus basically means they will be express routes with very few stops.

What CATS wants to do is build up the line first with buses to the point where the investment for Streetcar would make sense. I think that when they roll out the financial plan in the next few months where they will show what line get builts when, expect to see the West Streetcar come online around 2020, or even later.

While the West Streetcar wasn't officially killed last night it was put on the backburner.

[uptownliving]

I would add something else that McCrory said during the meeting and that is that he thinks CATS will only be able to take forward 1 or 2 lines at this time to the FTA. He mentioned the streetcar as one of those projects. If I had to guess, the other one would be the SE line if it is voted to have BRT. Both of those projects are the ones that will most likely receive federal funding acording to CATS.

[monsoon]

Maybe I'm a little too optimistic on the issue, but I think BRT is going to be a whole lot better than most people think. It's more than just a bus line in terms of realiablity and service. Plus, hopefully it will be designed in a way that a conversion to LRT would not be too difficult. They should also busses will look more like the rail cars. Asthetics can give something a whole different feel.

I do agree with you on BRT now that I have seen the Las Vegas MAX line. I assume they would build a similar system here since they are using photos of the MAX in the CATS presentations and it would serve the needs of these areas quite well. The purpose of all of these transit corridors is to make it possible to increase densities and encourage development without the need for adding additional automobiles. BRT if implemented correctly will do this quite well.

Considering what happened last night, and my earlier comment on this, I believe there will be a great deal of politics played in this before it is over with. They basically didn't decide much of anything and have introduced a delay that is going to affect the entire remaining system which is yet to be built. The delay was nothing but pure politics.

One thing that is notible in this. If McCroy wants to have greater say in what is going to happen, he is going to have to learn to work with the other municipalities and not against them. If not, his vote will become irrelevant and Charlotte's decision in this process will be made by the city council. (which will end up turning nasty) His past record on cooperation is not so good however. The CLT mayor's biggest advantage to this process is his apparent connections to the Republican party in Washington, (they owe him for being one of Bush's attack dogs in the 2004 election) and their control of FTA funds. The FTA seems to be approving funding these days based on who is pushing for it and not based on need. This change in FTA policy appeared after Republicans took full control of Congress two years ago and this advantage could disappear after the November election.

[voyager12]

While I think LRT would be a great thing for the Independence corridor, it sure looks like the prospect of it is doomed. Delaying a formal denial simply because a US Congressman wrote a letter is counterproductive. Designing an attractive BRT is the best option at this point.

[dubone]

As for the Wilkinson corridor getting streetcar, that is the "long term" strategy. They basically recommended, as they had reported in all of the past West corridor meetings, that BRT would be ineffective, as it would cost $105, but be no more effective at economic development, ridership increases, or transportation speed. According to their modelling, a regular bus in regular lanes would be competive in times with BRT in a dedicated lane because of lack of congestion and complicated signal timing. Streetcar would cost $185m, mostly because they would have to relocate a significant amount of utility lines. But it would attract 25% or more riders, and significantly improve economic development prospects. However, even with the CATS recommendation and the MTC decision now that streetcar is the preferred local alternative, it still would rated only Medium or Medium-Low for cost effectiveness. That means they will keep it as a plan, but more as a future extension of the core streetcar line. In the meantime, they will likely use the stop/station designs that were done for the main streetcar line, and install them along Wilkinson and Morehead for the bus routes. That way, part of the costs of the future streetcar line will be done early.

As for the SE corridor, I am convinced that BRT is the way to go, and is also inevitable. For one thing, LRT is NOT going to attract the economic development that other corridors would. The primary reason for this is that the parcels along Independence would have a lot of problems for dense residential development. The only place that could really see that kind of development would be up in Elizabeth and Plaza-Midwood, where the streetcar would already be providing that impetus. The main spur for commercial economic development would be to convert Independence to a freeway, as is the current plan. Even though the freeway construction stage is rough on businesses, it would be for LRT construction, too. But once Independence is a freeway with interchanges, the corridor is upgraded in the formula for national retailers. 485 has attracted far more economic development than LRT, so the conversion to a freeway is just what that corridor needs. Right now, people have learned to avoid Independence because of the traffic. But with a freeway, that traffic will be spread out, so people will be able to return to once again support retailers.

Having a busway will actually cause the freeway money to speed up, because there is an additional compelling reason for the government to do it. But BRT through Conference Dr could still be built in within the next decade as the funding is in place, with the rest simply being on the regular lanes of Independence. LRT, however, would need to wait until all the funding is in place for the full freeway, as it can't be run on Independence lanes.

However, I don't see why BRT couldn't be funded, spurring the funds for the rest of the freeway to 485, and then revisit the question in 15 years to add track and wires for LRT.

EDIT: I was a little late on some of that, as it appears u/l added the extra info from CATS. I wrote all this, and forgot to hit send .

[monsoon]

Streetcar would cost $185m, mostly because they would have to relocate a significant amount of utility lines. But it would attract 25% or more riders, and significantly improve economic development prospects.

Well no, CATS has said the West streetcar line will attract 25% less than BRT, and it currently has a LOW cost effectiveness. The link is posted above. The big difference is the streetcar stops at the employee parking lot at the airport. BRT goes all the way to 485 and thus serves more people.