Which Rail Line Should Charlotte Build Next?

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/15156503.htm

Wow, I had no idea that ridership projects for the West line were only 3800 in 2030! I have up until this point been very pro streetcar on this corridor. Especially since finding out that BRT would be slower than the current bus routes on that corridor.

To me, now, I agree with the Mayor and Ron Tober that they should drop the Wilkinson route as a mass transit route.

And to be honest, I don't think the community in the area cares anyway. Every public meeting I have gone to for the West corridor has had only a handful of people come, and most do not live in that corridor.

I think that the Beatties Ford streetcar, which got very high marks in the CATS analysis, should count as the western leg of the CATS system. Historically, Beatties Ford has been the focal point of West Charlotte anyway.

[monsoon]

Transit to an airport is a tough because nobody wants to live or develop land near an airport so a transit line there can't be used for much else. High capacity transit like light rail is really hard to cost justify. What they need to do with this route is cancel the street car line and instead create a DMU like commuter rail from the airport to Gateway Station. It can use the existing Amtrak rail line and would resemble the express trains that you see at many airports. Philly, London, Narita (Tokyo) etc all have commuter express trains running to the center city.

My guess is that a line such as this would be much less expensive and would serve the airport much better. It could also make better use of Gateway Station, the downtown VMF, and the commuter rail technology for that line. The cost would be a couple of trains, and a station built at the terminal. Two trains could give a 15 minutes turnaround which is in line with many systems like this. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

[orulz]

Good idea, actually, about using the Amtrak line for direct Airport-Downtown rail service. They would probably at least want a spur track to bring the trains closer to the terminal. I can imagine Norfolk Southern would demand at least a third track on their existing line to make this happen. So this would probably cost more than just the stations and rolling stock.

Something like this was contemplated for the Southeast High Speed Rail line - having the terminal at the Charlotte airport in addition to the station at West Trade.

Regarding development near airports, while residential neigborhoods don't usually spring up immediately proximate to airports, offices and hotels are extremely common and popular. So, transit to an airport could serve to take local commuters to their offices by the airport, or local folks to the airport, or people from out of town to the offices near the airport... etc. A large residential component isn't an absolute neccessity at each and every stop on every single transit line for it to work out.

[MZT]

Probably a heckova lot cheaper, to just lease some vans and run shuttles from the airport to the Gateway station. Airport passengers probably don't want to bother toting bags onto a bus or train anyway.

When I flew out of LAX I would use the green line to get there. But I'm a light packer and one carry-on is enough for me.

[monsoon]

Every one of these airport express trains that I have seen, have allowances to make boarding with baggage really easy. This is another advantage of this over running regular transit trains to them.

[dubone]

I asked about that at one West Corridor meeting. The engineers said that the idea of commuter rail using the freight tracks that run from the airport to downtown had been nixed during the initial study a number of years ago. Those tracks are so busy that CATS would be forced to add tracks and various other changes that would be cost prohibitive, especially since ANY transit system would be subject to the same market constraints that leads LRT, BRT, and streetcar to not attract many riders.

However, as Orulz mentioned (and has been mentioned numerous times elsewhere on UP), the SouthEast High Speed Rail would run between uptown and the airport as part of the extension from Charlotte to Atlanta.

It is a long time away, but presumably there would be track improvements as part of that passenger rail project, so CATS could probably piggy back on that. They could even add it as an extension of the North Line, so that it can also serve a larger market than just airport to downtown.

[monsoon]

I am not quite sure I understand the limitation since Amtrak already runs passenger rail down this track. When the Crescent leaves Charlotte it heads to the station in Gastonia roughly parallel to Hwy 74 so no improvements are needed to the track for passengers. All they would need to build would be a spur to the airport and a station.

[orulz]

It's not that the track is in too poor condition to support passenger trains. The NS mainline is in excellent condition, and passenger trains can travel 80mph on it with few restrictions. The problem is with congestion. There's something like 50 freight trains per day on that line, and just two Amtrak trains (the Crescent, both directions.)

50 freights per day might not seem like a lot, particularly if you think of the 100,000-plus vehicle-per-day traffic counts on multi-lane freeways, but realize that the trains are up to a mile long, come at random intervals, run at different speeds, and need a buffer of several miles between one train and the next due to performance characteristics and signals.

There's no way that one train in each direction every 15 minutes during normal hours (that would be probably 90ish trains a day) could operate in tandem with the freight trains without more parallel tracks. If you want to let Norfolk Southern's dispatch control your trains, you might be able to pay them to add trackage to their existing line, but if you want absolute control (precise scheduling) of your trains, basically you'd end up with a 9-mile, two-station version of the TTA line in Raleigh.

[ChiefJoJo]

The MTC meeting to decide technolgy for the SE corridor is August 23 @ 5:30pm at the Govt Ctr Rm 267. I was at the Matthews Public Meeting last week, and it seems like BRT is the clear choice, although Matthews residents seemed to still want LRT (it's sexier haha) even though it costs over $200M more, is less flexible than BRT (can run in mixed traffic and accomodate HOV 3+) and offers no ridership advantage.

I was told by a Huntersville official that the next project to move forward may be the SE or NE Corridor, as the North may not have the ridership (despite the low cost) to win federal funding. ALso, it seems like the west corridor is going to be put on the back burner.

[atlrvr]

Again.....why build a technology that people aren't going to embrace......it doesn't seem like it would be worth $1M in investments if this attracts no new riders and no new development.

With all the models that they have, I wonder if there is an input for "Southern Stereotype Regarding Bus Rider Demographics".

My sentiment is, if the people in the SE corridor will only support LRT, then let them wait until we can afford LRT, then give it to them.

Extending the South corridor -> NE makes the most sense from an infrastructure standpoint anyway.

[MZT]

I think in the end, cost will be the main driver in the decision. The North line is next.

[monsoon]

The Feds, just approved a $600M commuter rail system in Utah, and a $500M commuter rail system in Orlando. Neither has the expected ridership numbers of the North line. The federal process for approving funds seems to be thoroughly broken these days. This article in an intersting take on things. Notice which line they have taken notice of.

It's hard to say what will happen, but I think the MTC will most likely go forward with the North line.

[swampfox43]

Probably a heckova lot cheaper, to just lease some vans and run shuttles from the airport to the Gateway station. Airport passengers probably don't want to bother toting bags onto a bus or train anyway.

Seattle is currently building a Light Rail line from Sea-tac to downtown Seattle.

I realize Seattle is more of a tourist destination than Charlotte but all those full airport parking lots should speak volumes. I would love taking a train to the airport in Charlotte even if it meant driving a little out of the way to get to a station. Too bad this likely won't happen any time soon.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think the North line is going to depend on the PPP initiatives with developers in North Meck.

BTW, wrt the Orlando project, unless I missed it, I don't see it in the FTA FY07 New Starts report.

[monsoon]

This is why I said the process is broken. BTW, that report is posted in the Urban Transit portion of UrbanPlanet.

[moving uptown]

when i move uptown, i would much rather take a train to the airport. it just makes sense. when i go to europe, that is the way i get into the city. all the airports as everyone knows are a long way from the city (gatwich is 40km, schipole is 30km . . .).

with that said, one way the numbers could inflate for ridership to the airport on the light rail would be an increase in parking fees at clt.

also there is a stigma about the bus. build the rail or dont build it at all. dont do something half assed and i feel that the bus rapid transit is the half assed way of doing things.

[A2]

The Feds, just approved a $600M commuter rail system in Utah, and a $500M commuter rail system in Orlando. Neither has the expected ridership numbers of the North line. The federal process for approving funds seems to be thoroughly broken these days. This article in an intersting take on things. Notice which line they have taken notice of.

Really it is all polictics. Those grants are a great example of wasteful spending and an Improper allocation of the Fed's (um, I mean OUR money). This is the kind of s**t that burns me up as a hard working tax payer. It should be declared a sin and those doing it should be charged with wreckless uses of tax money and thown in jail. (where I would love to send them some more of my tax money to shelter and feed them)

We in Charlotte, one of the FASTEST growing cities and metros in the US, can't even get funding to adequetly light our Interstates, let alone a grant for a much needed transit line. (granted I know it is the state that is Responsible, but just let me rant a little guys, ok )

As I drove back from ATL last weekend, I noticed not only is I-277 in the dark, but 90% of the western leg of I-85 and the bulk of I-77S coming into the city.

There are literally NO lights on for some of the deadliest on/off ramps in the city !!! Stretches of unlit area sometimes seem to go for miles! What the hell is our city, county, and state doing to help?!

Answer:

Not a D**N THING !!!!

Once again:

"God Bless America"

A2

[monsoon]

There are literally NO lights on for some of the deadliest on/off ramps in the city !!! Stretches of unlit area sometimes seem to go for miles! What the hell is our city, county, and state doing to help?!

Answer:

Not a D**N THING !!!!

You won't like this A2. The NCDOT has just installed 6 50 ft 6 lamp high intensity lights at Exit 23 on I-77. This is not the biggest exit in the world and 4 of these monsters would seem to be more than enough. With 6 of these, it's so lit up you can read a book out there in the middle of the night with no problem.

And get this, the lights apparently don't turn off as they burn all day long too. I wonder who in the NCDOT is responsible for fixing this as it seems like a big waste of energy.

[A2]

You won't like this A2. The NCDOT has just installed 6 50 ft 6 lamp high intensity lights at Exit 23 on I-77. This is not the biggest exit in the world and 4 of these monsters would seem to be more than enough. With 6 of these, it's so lit up you can read a book out there in the middle of the night with no problem.

And get this, the lights apparently don't turn off as they burn all day long too. I wonder who in the NCDOT is responsible for fixing this as it seems like a big waste of energy.

Your absolutely right metro, I don't like it. You have to pardon me as I wipe up the puke from my computer station, since I just got sick by the lack of planning and wasteful spending the NCDOT is insistant upon.

A2

[nyxmike]

They also installed some of those lights around the I-77/I-485 interchange by S.C. and of course, most of them don't really work.

[monsoon]

Back to the topic at hand....

This article from the always well written Huntersville Herald, gives a good rundown on the decision making process that will take place this fall.

[AuLukey]

Along with that article's final line

"You

[monsoon]

The 100 thousand people you mention in UC are served by both the North and NorthEast line. They win out no matter which way the vote goes.

[AuLukey]

The 100 thousand people you mention in UC are served by both the North and NorthEast line. They win out no matter which way the vote goes.

In a way yes, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing the misrepresentation. And I do believe that the LRT would benefit UC more in that there would be far more stops within its 'borders.' Having one, maybe two CR stops would only serve a small population compared to five or six LRT stops which would be served more frequently and go more places. People don't take the line just to go uptown as the CR almost gives the impression of.

[MZT]

I would agree the NE line is more useful to the University City population. But I still think both the politcal and economic calculus will bring the North line into view first.

The REAL wrangling comes after the North line. In fact, I would not be suprised to see the center city Streetcar built next -- just so the ugly debate of the NE line and SE lines can be punted farther into the future.

If I was dictator of Mecklenburg though, I think I'd favor the NE line over the SE. Independence Blvd is just so far gone with big box sprawl -- and it will be a decade before the NCDOT finishes work out there anyway.