Downtown South (Sunrail/Amtrak, SODO, Orlando Health, Lymmo, Orange/Michigan Avenues)

[Jernigan]

Aye - Mills / Shine / Fern Creek / Hampton say hello.

[AndyPok1]

Fair enough.  I think those are awful and half should be gotten rid of.  

[spenser1058]

Orlando has long been infamous for too many traffic signals in town - even my parents used to complain about it. Combine it with the racetrack highways designed by FDOT (and even the old SRD) and the two together are a perfect disaster (after stopping for eight lights in a row, it’s natural to overcompensate by trying to beat all those lights and then going to warp as soon as you’re past them).

But hey, we fell to #8 this year on the most dangerous roads list - Daytona blew by us to #1.

Edited July 17, 2022 by spenser1058

[Jernigan]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

 

But hey, we fell to #8 this year on the most dangerous roads list - Daytona blew by us to #1.

Regrettably, we didn’t fall per say, we were just surpassed as you inferred.   The crazy thing is they could fix a handful of key intersections and change our standing significantly. I cant recall which ones but Osceola County and Pine Hills area come to mind.  Silver Star and a cross street for one.

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, Jernigan said:

Regrettably, we didn’t fall per say, we were just surpassed as you inferred.   The crazy thing is they could fix a handful of key intersections and change our standing significantly. I cant recall which ones but Osceola County and Pine Hills area come to mind.  Silver Star and a cross street for one.

I was hit crossing Silver Star at Powers with my dog in a crosswalk and I had the green light by a Camaro that didn’t come to a full stop to turn right on red.

[JFW657]

If people would use their heads and exercise the level of caution that walking along and across busy roadways requires, these accidents wouldn't happen with anywhere near the frequency that they do.

People want to blame the evil cars and their evil drivers.

Local governments keep on thinking there's some magical roadway and traffic engineering method or formula that will alter drivers' habits, resulting in significantly lower numbers of pedestrian related accidents.

But in the end, it still comes down to the behavior of the pedestrians themselves. 

It's really simple... Don't step onto the road in front of cars. 

If you're too far away from a crosswalk and you need to cross, take a deep breath, tell yourself to be patient. Wait until there are no cars coming for a good hundred or two hundred yards in either direction. Look both ways several times, even as you're crossing, and then... move your ass!!!

If you've got a dog who won't move, pick him up and carry him.

If he's too big, drag him.

But sadly, as we see being demonstrated with greater and greater frequency as time passes, you just can't fix stupid.

[spenser1058]

18 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

If people would use their heads and exercise the level of caution that walking along and across busy roadways requires, these accidents wouldn't happen with anywhere near the frequency that they do.

People want to blame the evil cars and their evil drivers.

Local governments keep on thinking there's some magical roadway and traffic engineering method or formula that will alter drivers' habits, resulting in significantly lower numbers of pedestrian related accidents.

But in the end, it still comes down to the behavior of the pedestrians themselves. 

It's really simple... Don't step onto the road in front of cars. 

If you're too far away from a crosswalk and you need to cross, take a deep breath, tell yourself to be patient. Wait until there are no cars coming for a good hundred or two hundred yards in either direction. Look both ways several times, even as you're crossing, and then... move your ass!!!

If you've got a dog who won't move, pick him up and carry him.

If he's too big, drag him.

But sadly, as we see being demonstrated with greater and greater frequency as time passes, you just can't fix stupid.

That reminds me of the guy in an F-150 on (4-lane!) Old Winter Garden Rd, near Orlo Vista, mid-morning, light traffic, when I was riding my road bike along the shoulder. The driver stops, backs up and proceeds to tell me I have to ride on the sidewalk. There was absolutely no changing his mind, even as I shared with him that a road bike averaging 15mph isn’t particularly safe on an undulating sidewalk with driveways, gaps between the cement, etc. I also shared that Florida law allows bicycles on the roadway following the same rules as a motorized vehicle. He then observed that my helmet made me look like a f***ot. I thanked him, and shared that I in fact was one. Then he proceeded to follow along with me, inching ever closer to my side. Fortunately, a trooper came along right about then and the truck driver took the next right directly in front of me. Thankfully, I did not crash. Yep, Florida drivers are always right!

Edited July 17, 2022 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

That reminds me of the guy in an F-150 on (4-lane!) Old Winter Garden Rd, near Orlo Vista, mid-morning, light traffic, when I was riding my road bike along the shoulder. The driver stops, backs up and proceeds to tell me I have to ride on the sidewalk. There was absolutely no changing his mind, even as I shared with him that a road bike averaging 15mph isn’t particularly safe on an undulating sidewalk with driveways, gaps between the cement, etc. I also shared that Florida law allows bicycles on the roadway following the same rules as a motorized vehicle. He then observed that my helmet made me look like a f***ot. I thanked him, and shared that I in fact was one. Then he proceeded to follow along with me, inching ever closer to my side. Fortunately, a trooper came along right about then and the truck driver took the next right directly in front of me. Thankfully, I did not crash. Yep, Florida drivers are always right!

Nice story, but totally irrelevant.

Yes, bicycles have a legal right to share the roadway with two ton hunks of hurtling metal zooming just inches past them.

Is it smart to do so, legal rights notwithstanding?

I'll leave that up to each individual to weigh all the factors and potential outcomes, etc.

My point was that if pedestrians would act like they've got their eyes and ears open and their brain switches flipped on and set to the conscious and alert position, the vast majority of pedestrian accidents would not happen. 

I will submit to you also, (and I base this solely on cases I've heard reported on the local news) that a lot of the pedestrian related accidents that happen around here, involve people who've recently moved here from Latin America where it is my understanding that things like pedestrian vs automobile interactions are looked at a bit more casually. 

[Jolly Roger's Crackers]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

If people would use their heads and exercise the level of caution that walking along and across busy roadways requires, these accidents wouldn't happen with anywhere near the frequency that they do.

People want to blame the evil cars and their evil drivers.

Local governments keep on thinking there's some magical roadway and traffic engineering method or formula that will alter drivers' habits, resulting in significantly lower numbers of pedestrian related accidents.

But in the end, it still comes down to the behavior of the pedestrians themselves. 

It's really simple... Don't step onto the road in front of cars. 

If you're too far away from a crosswalk and you need to cross, take a deep breath, tell yourself to be patient. Wait until there are no cars coming for a good hundred or two hundred yards in either direction. Look both ways several times, even as you're crossing, and then... move your ass!!!

If you've got a dog who won't move, pick him up and carry him.

If he's too big, drag him.

But sadly, as we see being demonstrated with greater and greater frequency as time passes, you just can't fix stupid.

This is the worst post I have seen on this forum (but I am not here that often). I am an avid bicycle rider. I jog regularly. I walk my dogs daily. I adhere to traffic rules and crosswalk signals (and various other pedestrian related protocols).  Me (and my dogs) have nearly gotten annihilated multiple times by speeding and drifting (and distracted on their devices) commuters drifting off of the road (and sometimes all the way onto the G**Damn sidewalk). I have literally had to "yank" my dogs out of harms way (several times). 25mph in my neighborhood and drivers race by at 40+ and pass on the double yellow every day. It pisses me off. I hit every crosswalk signal (when riding my bike) and STILL have drivers flip me the bird (and cut me off) because I dare cross an intersection and interrupt  their "right turn on red" DESPITE me (on my bike) having the right of way.. DRAG MY DOG ACROSS THE STREET??? man...are you okay???  Pedestrians abiding by the rules should not be subject to the demands of an impatient population of assholes behind the wheel. Do some people "do the stupid" and step out into traffic? Obviously that happens from time to time. But...this city is full of aggressive drivers....unafraid of violating speed limits and and intersection protocols. Until that changes (by whatever means) more people (like me) are gonna be casualties. Until then, Namaste.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jolly Roger's Crackers

[spenser1058]

Three times this week I was driving down the street with the right of way and trucks (for some reason, it’s frequently pickups) turned right on red or at a stop sign with me coming and pulling out in front of me without even stopping.

Florida law gives the right of way to the pedestrian. Obviously, if they do something stupid and there was no reasonable way to avoid hitting the person, that’s considered. But the onus is always on the vehicle to avoid hitting the pedestrian or cyclist. 

i am becoming particularly aware of the habits of other drivers recently since I signed up for State Farm’s “Drive Safe and Save” program (most of the major companies have something similar). The transponder grades me on every trip for speed, braking, cornering, acceleration and phone use. Driving is an “overlearned habit” and it’s amazing after driving for 45+ years to be reminded about what I’m doing on every trip (I also like the lower rate I’ve gotten from it on insurance).
 

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, Jolly Roger's Crackers said:

This is the worst post I have seen on this forum (but I am not here that often). I am an avid bicycle rider. I jog regularly. I walk my dogs daily.

Well, there you go. 

You feel like your favorite hobbies/pastimes were assailed, so you took offense.

I knew the plain talk I posted would ruffle some feathers, and that those feathers would probably belong to the dog walkers and bicyclists.

Think about this for a minute.... all I said, in a nutshell, was that if you're on the side of a busy roadway....

BE EXTRA CAREFUL.

Yet this simple idea offended you. 

And BTW, if you're walking your dogs alongside a busy, four lane thoroughfare, you're asking for trouble.

I was at Winn Dixie on CFR a couple of days ago, and these people were walking east on the sidewalk in front of the store. They had this little black and white dog running along ahead of them with NO LEASH. I'm sure they assumed the dog would not suddenly run out into the road in front of a car, but they certainly weren't doing anything to prevent it either.

2 hours ago, Jolly Roger's Crackers said:

This is the worst post I have seen on this forum (but I am not here that often). I am an avid bicycle rider. I jog regularly. I walk my dogs daily. I adhere to traffic rules and crosswalk signals (and various other pedestrian related protocols).  Me (and my dogs) have nearly gotten annihilated multiple times by speeding and drifting (and distracted on their devices) commuters drifting off of the road (and sometimes all the way onto the G**Damn sidewalk). I have literally had to "yank" my dogs out of harms way (several times). 25mph in my neighborhood and drivers race by at 40+ and pass on the double yellow every day. It pisses me off. I hit every crosswalk signal (when riding my bike) and STILL have drivers flip me the bird (and cut me off) because I dare cross an intersection and interrupt  their "right turn on red" DESPITE me (on my bike) having the right of way.. DRAG MY DOG ACROSS THE STREET??? man...are you okay???  Pedestrians abiding by the rules should not be subject to the demands of an impatient population of assholes behind the wheel. Do some people "do the stupid" and step out into traffic? Obviously that happens from time to time. But...this city is full of aggressive drivers....unafraid of violating speed limits and and intersection protocols. Until that changes (by whatever means) more people (like me) are gonna be casualties. Until then, Namaste.

So what do you propose to do about it?

You've not offered one thing in the way of a proposed solution. Rather, you just went off on an emotional, offended rant at me for having the gall to suggest that pedestrians bear part of the responsibility too.

How dare me????? 

There's very little you can do to change the way some people drive.  Most people are good, responsible and careful drivers. 

You can only narrow the roads, reduce the number of lanes and lower speed limits to a certain point. After that, you're creating more problems than you're solving.

And some people will still drive like idiots anyway.

That is why what I suggested, is the only sure fire way for pedestrians to ensure their own safety.... BE EXTRA CAREFUL.

And BTW, your response was not exactly the best post I've ever read here either.  

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Three times this week I was driving down the street with the right of way and trucks (for some reason, it’s frequently pickups) turned right on red or at a stop sign with me coming and pulling out in front of me without even stopping.

Florida law gives the right of way to the pedestrian. Obviously, if they do something stupid and there was no reasonable way to avoid hitting the person, that’s considered. But the onus is always on the vehicle to avoid hitting the pedestrian or cyclist. 

i am becoming particularly aware of the habits of other drivers recently since I signed up for State Farm’s “Drive Safe and Save” program (most of the major companies have something similar). The transponder grades me on every trip for speed, braking, cornering, acceleration and phone use. Driving is an “overlearned habit” and it’s amazing after driving for 45+ years to be reminded about what I’m doing on every trip (I also like the lower rate I’ve gotten from it on insurance).
 

That's why the police stress defensive driving.

Be aware of what's going on around you, always assume the other guy is about to do something stupid and be ready to react. 

Same with pedestrians.

Just because the little crosswalk man turns green does not mean you should suddenly leap off the curb in full stride out into the crosswalk. Turn and look at all the streets on all sides of you. Give yourself an extra moment to see what the cars are doing.  

[popsiclebrandon]

We make enormous killing machines that we don't need to make so large or dangerous. There are plenty of times I've seen pedestrians and cyclists do stupid things but more often its people in cars that are reckless.

[nite owℓ]

Pedestrians are an afterthought down here because Orlando is very car-centric. I feel safer walking around in cities like NYC than I do here in Orlando and there is a reason for that because at least some thought went into planning for pedestrians in other cities.

For some reason pedestrians are expected to tolerate conditions that would never be allowed on the street if the roles were reversed for vehicles, why?? How many sidewalks in our city limits are incomplete or missing altogether? Consider the the quality as well: narrow sidewalks, poles in the middle of sidewalks, sidewalks that lack curb cuts which force pedestrians to step up/down, obstructions/parking on sidewalks, sidewalks that obscure pedestrians from vehicles, sidewalks that literally terminate mid-block, etc. Then you have crosswalks that force pedestrians and vehicles to share the same signal as soon as the traffic light turns green, LPIs with only 5 second delays or lack of LPIs altogether, crosswalks that are not clearly defined with faded striping or lack of stripes altogether, lack of raised crosswalks in pertinent areas, poorly lighted streets/intersections, lack of enforcement, etc.

Sure pedestrians and drivers need to exercise caution, but the onus is on the City to set the tone and start taking pedestrian safety seriously, make meaningful changes, implement traffic calming measures and dedicate a real budget to accomplish this.

[FLheat]

17 hours ago, JFW657 said:

 

My point was that if pedestrians would act like they've got their eyes and ears open and their brain switches flipped on and set to the conscious and alert position, the vast majority of pedestrian accidents would not happen. 

 

If you ever step in a crosswalk in Europe, you will note, every car no matter how fast they are travelling, will come to a dead stop. (except scooters that weave around you). In Rome, for example, you would never be able to cross a road unless you have blind trust and step in an unsignalled crosswalk.  Drivers understand there a serious consequences to not obey this law. America, on the other hand, gives priority to the car.

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

We make enormous killing machines that we don't need to make so large or dangerous. There are plenty of times I've seen pedestrians and cyclists do stupid things but more often its people in cars that are reckless.

I agree that American cars and trucks are much bigger than they need to be.

But a Mini Cooper can kill you just as dead as Ford F-150 at 30 mph.

2 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Pedestrians are an afterthought down here because Orlando is very car-centric. I feel safer walking around in cities like NYC than I do here in Orlando and there is a reason for that because at least some thought went into planning for pedestrians in other cities.

For some reason pedestrians are expected to tolerate conditions that would never be allowed on the street if the roles were reversed for vehicles, why?? How many sidewalks in our city limits are incomplete or missing altogether? Consider the the quality as well: narrow sidewalks, poles in the middle of sidewalks, sidewalks that lack curb cuts which force pedestrians to step up/down, obstructions/parking on sidewalks, sidewalks that obscure pedestrians from vehicles, sidewalks that literally terminate mid-block, etc. Then you have crosswalks that force pedestrians and vehicles to share the same signal as soon as the traffic light turns green, LPIs with only 5 second delays or lack of LPIs altogether, crosswalks that are not clearly defined with faded striping or lack of stripes altogether, lack of raised crosswalks in pertinent areas, poorly lighted streets/intersections, lack of enforcement, etc.

Sure pedestrians and drivers need to exercise caution, but the onus is on the City to set the tone and start taking pedestrian safety seriously, make meaningful changes, implement traffic calming measures and dedicate a real budget to accomplish this.

All those deficiencies in our pedestrian safety system are legitimate points. But even if every single one of them were brought up standards and functioning perfectly, people who step in front of cars would still get killed. 

Even the smallest, compact cars doing the speed limit will kill you if they hit you going 30 mph. 

In that regard, the onus to recognize and appreciate the potential danger of walking next to moving automobiles is on us.

Setting a tone only works for those who are not tone deaf. 

Sadly, too many people are just that.

2 hours ago, FLheat said:

If you ever step in a crosswalk in Europe, you will note, every car no matter how fast they are travelling, will come to a dead stop. (except scooters that weave around you). In Rome, for example, you would never be able to cross a road unless you have blind trust and step in an unsignalled crosswalk.  Drivers understand there a serious consequences to not obey this law. America, on the other hand, gives priority to the car.

I agree that people in Europe are smarter than we are about a lot of things. Gun ownership is another one that comes to mind. But we are not totally without consequences here when it comes to reckless driving.

Prison sentences are prescribed, though sometimes judges fail to impose them. 

But civil courts are an available remedy.

For those who have an income and assets, there's always Morgan, Newlin and Munns hovering like vultures around every courtroom, licking their chops and just waiting to take some sap and their insurance company for every nickel they can get.

All that aside, my point centers around the notion that there's only so much the gub'mint can do to protect us and as such, we must take that responsibility upon ourselves.

The technology exists in which they could require that every auto tag sticker contain a transponder similar to E-Pass, that would send a signal to speed detection devices attached to utility poles along every roadway, which would measure and report our speed everywhere we go.

Zero tolerance. 

Every report of speeding would result in a speeding ticket arriving in the mail. Get too many and licenses get suspended.

And that info would also be transmitted to every police car in the vicinity.

Would that stop speeding? I think it would come as close as anything possibly could. 

But the people and the courts would never allow it. Look at the stink that was raised over red light cameras, which I supported BTW. 

More to the point though, even if speeding was completely eradicated, the reality is still that the smallest car travelling at 30 mph can still kill or permanently injure a person.

Our own actions and behavior are the only things we all have complete control over.

Rather than pointing the finger of blame at the authorities, we should all make it a point to understand and respect the potential danger that exists for pedestrians, and act in such a way as to minimize our own risk.

If everyone did that, I believe that pedestrian injuries and deaths would drop to a fraction of what they are currently, and we would not be considered one of the most dangerous areas for pedestrians in the nation. 

[jack]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I agree that American cars and trucks are much bigger than they need to be.

But a Mini Cooper can kill you just as dead as Ford F-150 at 30 mph.

All those deficiencies in our pedestrian safety system are legitimate points. But even if every single one of them were brought up standards and functioning perfectly, people who step in front of cars would still get killed. 

Even the smallest, compact cars doing the speed limit will kill you if they hit you going 30 mph. 

In that regard, the onus to recognize and appreciate the potential danger of walking next to moving automobiles is on us.

Setting a tone only works for those who are not tone deaf. 

Sadly, too many people are just that.

I agree that people in Europe are smarter than we are about a lot of things. Gun ownership is another one that comes to mind. But we are not totally without consequences here when it comes to reckless driving.

Prison sentences are prescribed, though sometimes judges fail to impose them. 

But civil courts are an available remedy.

For those who have an income and assets, there's always Morgan, Newlin and Munns hovering like vultures around every courtroom, licking their chops and just waiting to take some sap and their insurance company for every nickel they can get.

All that aside, my point centers around the notion that there's only so much the gub'mint can do to protect us and as such, we must take that responsibility upon ourselves.

The technology exists in which they could require that every auto tag sticker contain a transponder similar to E-Pass, that would send a signal to speed detection devices attached to utility poles along every roadway, which would measure and report our speed everywhere we go.

Zero tolerance. 

Every report of speeding would result in a speeding ticket arriving in the mail. Get too many and licenses get suspended.

And that info would also be transmitted to every police car in the vicinity.

Would that stop speeding? I think it would come as close as anything possibly could. 

But the people and the courts would never allow it. Look at the stink that was raised over red light cameras, which I supported BTW. 

More to the point though, even if speeding was completely eradicated, the reality is still that the smallest car travelling at 30 mph can still kill or permanently injure a person.

Our own actions and behavior are the only things we all have complete control over.

Rather than pointing the finger of blame at the authorities, we should all make it a point to understand and respect the potential danger that exists for pedestrians, and act in such a way as to minimize our own risk.

If everyone did that, I believe that pedestrian injuries and deaths would drop to a fraction of what they are currently, and we would not be considered one of the most dangerous areas for pedestrians in the nation. 

So, totally on board with individual responsibility (driver, biker, pedestrians) but there are some design things government can do to decrease these negative outcomes. Signage, speed limits, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street parking,  etc. We should not let the government off of the hook completely. 

[JFW657]

28 minutes ago, jack said:

So, totally on board with individual responsibility (driver, biker, pedestrians) but there are some design things government can do to decrease these negative outcomes. Signage, speed limits, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street parking,  etc. We should not let the government off of the hook completely. 

Absolutely!!!  

And, as you said in not so many words, we should not put it all on govt either. 

[codypet]

For engineering and education:  In defense of the entities that I'm working with, we are actively doing things to improve the situation, but it takes time and we're seeing considerable pushback from the most vocal group related to this.  Look what happened at Curry Ford.  Adding bike lanes and accommodations for peds is a very difficult balancing effort.  I'm a driver who likes to bike and regularly rides to work.  You have people who are trying to get to places as fast as possible and no amount of engineering around the solution is going to solve those people unfortunately.  The group @spenser1058is talking about.  The guy that calls people names for making sure they don't get CTE in a crash.  The same kind of people that rolled coal on that bike group in TX and ran them all over when he lost control of his truck.  The same guy that'll pass cars on Primrose and Dellwood while someone is crossing at the crosswalk.  Those people will only listen to the 3rd E.  Enforcement.  The police HAVE to enforce this kind of thing.  I know they're stretched thin, but until they can get out there and hit these people in the wallet, its going to be an uphill slog.  Until that's all dealt with, biking and walking amongst the cars in an increasingly distracted society is going to continue to cause issues.

[jack]

I was called the "F" word once while biking downtown. The "person" was driving a pick up truck. It made me laugh.

Separately, a buddy of mine is an avid biker and was doing a race in NC. The group racing gets followed randomly by some ticked off locals that are upset a bike race is taking place in their town. Think very rural areas of NC. 

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, jack said:

I was called the "F" word once while biking downtown. The "person" was driving a pick up truck. It made me laugh.

Separately, a buddy of mine is an avid biker and was doing a race in NC. The group racing gets followed randomly by some ticked off locals that are upset a bike race is taking place in their town. Think very rural areas of NC. 

Now that we’ve discovered Madison Cawthorn is on the LGBTQ+ spectrum, maybe he’ll fix that. He’s going to have lots of free time soon! <eg>

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

For engineering and education:  In defense of the entities that I'm working with, we are actively doing things to improve the situation, but it takes time and we're seeing considerable pushback from the most vocal group related to this.  Look what happened at Curry Ford.  Adding bike lanes and accommodations for peds is a very difficult balancing effort.  I'm a driver who likes to bike and regularly rides to work.  You have people who are trying to get to places as fast as possible and no amount of engineering around the solution is going to solve those people unfortunately.  The group @spenser1058is talking about.  The guy that calls people names for making sure they don't get CTE in a crash.  The same kind of people that rolled coal on that bike group in TX and ran them all over when he lost control of his truck.  The same guy that'll pass cars on Primrose and Dellwood while someone is crossing at the crosswalk.  Those people will only listen to the 3rd E.  Enforcement.  The police HAVE to enforce this kind of thing.  I know they're stretched thin, but until they can get out there and hit these people in the wallet, its going to be an uphill slog.  

Plus it costs a lot of MONEY to go around ripping up and re-pouring new sidewalks with bicycle friendly curb treatments and widening bike lanes, etc, etc.

That money comes in part from local property taxes, and people/voters do not like property tax increases. 

And as you suggested, adequate enforcement is a difficult if not impossible task. There can never be enough police to be everywhere all the time.

Hence, the reason why taking the responsibility to look out for one's own safety is the only factor that we can all control.

1 hour ago, codypet said:

 Until that's all dealt with, biking and walking amongst the cars in an increasingly distracted society is going to continue to cause issues.

Bingo.

People not paying attention. 

Cell phones. 

[popsiclebrandon]

Just got wiped out on my scooter on the new trail on Orange in the NQ because a girl decided to come straight across Orange into her apt without looking at people on the trail.. Had to slam on my brakes and got pretty beat up and she almost hit a girl walking her dog too. That trail stretch is actually super dangerous because there is no signage or anything for drivers to watch for those on the trail as they fly in and out of the  buildings on that side.

[bqknight]

6 hours ago, jack said:

I was called the "F" word once while biking downtown. The "person" was driving a pick up truck. It made me laugh.

Separately, a buddy of mine is an avid biker and was doing a race in NC. The group racing gets followed randomly by some ticked off locals that are upset a bike race is taking place in their town. Think very rural areas of NC. 

Was called that when holding my (then) boyfriend's hand in 5 Points in Jacksonville. Also had a Starbucks thrown at me in San Marco. Both people were driving a pickup truck too. Hmmmmm....

[spenser1058]

We seem to be detecting a pattern here…