High-Speed Rail

[cwetteland]

This is going to end up a disaster.

Activist studies are going to be tossed around, there's going ot be a huge battle over funding, and in the end there are going to be huge lawsuits over compensation for spent funds that the state backs away from and biased reports, and it's going to cost the state far more in the end than it would cost to just build the thing.

I figure, if the state does not want any state money going for it, then it should also have no say over it AND get no financial benefits from it. Personally, I think the state owes the federal government not only the money alredy given it for studies, but interest as they had no intention of using the funds. Otherwise, it is the foes who are cheating the tax payers, not the project.

Totally agree. I just don't get it. Let's say nobody rides this thing. You still get 2.3 billion in fed money at the cost of 280 million. Thats a multiplier of 8. That 2.3 billion when spent has a 3.5 billion impact on the economy when workers buy houses shop for clothes, pay taxes etc etc. That's a total multiplier of 12. And now the "jobs" governor wants to kill it?

Any fed money not spent here will go to another state.

[DeepEyez]

This is the government WE voted for. Makes no sense in complaining now. The Right-Wing in this country are hell-bent on destroying everything about this country that makes it GREAT!

Allow me to share this secret with you all; Even the fool thinks he is RIGHT. The problem is not convincing the fool he's wrong but getting everyone else to ignore his dumb ass......SHUT OUT THE TEA PARTY!!!!!!!!

[DeepEyez]

This is the government WE voted for. Makes no sense in complaining now. The Right-Wing in this country are hell-bent on destroying everything about this country that makes it GREAT!

Allow me to share this secret with you all; Even the fool thinks he is RIGHT. The problem is not convincing the fool he's wrong but getting everyone else to ignore his dumb ass......SHUT OUT THE TEA PARTY!!!!!!!!

[bic]

Regarding the Formation of a Florida High Speed Rail Coalition

[mrh3]

Good article on the impact of High Speed Rail in the U.S.

HSR America 2050 Study

[palmtree73]

Good article on the impact of High Speed Rail in the U.S.

HSR America 2050 Study

I heard about this study on the Diane Rehm Show last week. The city pairs make sense, but one I'd like to see would be Orlando to Atlanta. Both Delta and Airtran have flights between the two cities every hour. It's a 90-minute flight that could take four hours door-to-door when you factor in traffic and security. A train going 150 mph could be there in about three hours. I bet business travelers and tourists would hop on that route.

I know the political climate isn't looking good with Rick Scott, but one thing I'd like to know is if he's purely against the idea for financial reasons or if he's against the idea altogether. I find that a lot of opposition to trains (especially with comments on Orlando Sentinel stories) come from a negative view of train travel in general as some sort of step backward and a yoke on the freedom of being able to go wherever/whenever you want in your personal vehicle.

[John Hargrove]

I heard about this study on the Diane Rehm Show last week. The city pairs make sense, but one I'd like to see would be Orlando to Atlanta. Both Delta and Airtran have flights between the two cities every hour. It's a 90-minute flight that could take four hours door-to-door when you factor in traffic and security. A train going 150 mph could be there in about three hours. I bet business travelers and tourists would hop on that route.

I know the political climate isn't looking good with Rick Scott, but one thing I'd like to know is if he's purely against the idea for financial reasons or if he's against the idea altogether. I find that a lot of opposition to trains (especially with comments on Orlando Sentinel stories) come from a negative view of train travel in general as some sort of step backward and a yoke on the freedom of being able to go wherever/whenever you want in your personal vehicle.

The Atlanta/Orlando idea is actually pretty interesting and it's not something I'd considered before. I fly through Atlanta constantly, either because my final destination is Atlanta or because I fly Delta and you end up there a lot.

I would be ecstatic if I could just grab my stuff, hop on the train and be in Atlanta in a few hours.

I flew through Atlanta about 30 times in 2010 ... The amount of hours (days, really) I've lost because of that airport is awful.

also worth noting is that when I'm going to Atlanta, I almost always just ride the MARTA to downtown or mid-town. I'm already riding trains for work. I'd love to ride more of them.

[cloudship]

I think we need to be careful with that study. The problem is we really do not have any true data to work with. Much of it is based on commuter rail data, old ideas, and data from different countries. The US is not Europe. We also have to be careful we don't apply airline thinking to our HSR lines, and that we don't think of passengers as freight. And we need to be careful of the airline mentality that all passenger travel is a commodity and speed and price the only factor. That is a significant danger.

As for Atlanta, the reason there are so many flights there is because it is a hub for two airlines, including the main hub for the world's largest. Don't try and steal from the airlines, try and compliment them. Find places where HSR can extend air lines, particularly for the low cost/discount airlines that can serve on central city and use HSR to connect to more.

I think that it is more than just a cost issue, in fact I think that is just their bargaining chip. The real problems are that there is too much industry in this country right now built around airlines and automobiles, and those are influencing votes. Especially when HSR is so often sold as a turn-key solution. There is also an image problem. For some trains are old fashioned lumbering things, for others they are "mass transit" cheap travel, forcing the elite to mix with the unwashed masses (Air travel is too expensive for the common folk, it is perceived). And for others it is too European, and thus Anti-American on that fact alone.

If you were to put someone on a modern train and an airplane and shut all the window shades, they would not notice a huge difference. In fact they would probably like the train better, as it offers more room and more freedom to get up. There is a speed difference, but we have to be careful that we are also looking at how tolerable that trip is, not just how fast it is.

The Florida HSR probably wont be the most successful line, but it IS an experimental line. It is a place to lean lessons, to innovate, to build a new industry and find a new travel alternative. I think that if the state got behind it, they would find themleves the leader in a brand new industry.

[bulldogger]

Are planes allowing you to use wifi while in flight yet? I would think more business travelers would think of the HSR as a way to work while commuting. Even if you could get wifi on a plane or a sat feed to an air card, you can't do it during takeoff and landings, which takes away available work time. If you are on a train with internet, you could be working as soon as you sit down. That would be a huge sell in my mind.

[John Hargrove]

Are planes allowing you to use wifi while in flight yet? I would think more business travelers would think of the HSR as a way to work while commuting. Even if you could get wifi on a plane or a sat feed to an air card, you can't do it during takeoff and landings, which takes away available work time. If you are on a train with internet, you could be working as soon as you sit down. That would be a huge sell in my mind.

Yes, all Delta flights have in-flight internet access now. I use it regularly. They outsource it to gogoinflight.com ... It's particularly slow but good enough to get work done.

Interestingly, Southwest has started doing this ... and in my experience with them it's both cheaper and quicker.

[mgsports]

Sun Rail is coming.

[bic]

Backers of High-Speed Rail Deride Report Critical of Plan

[prahaboheme]

Florida High Speed Rail Update

Plans to build a high speed rail system to connect Tampa to Orlando are speeding ahead. Governor Rick Scott is courting foreign companies to pick up the funding obligation assigned to the state. if the state can’t come up with the 280 million dollars by the end of September, Florida could lose 2.4 billion federal dollars for rail.

[alex]

Is it just me, or does it seem like HSR is getting a little closer to becoming reality? I might just be biased from reading a lot of "pro" websites and having a week without negative articles. But I think the fact that Rick Scott went from "absolutely no" to just "maybe" -- despite that recent study -- speaks volumes.

Still, whenever I read the comments people make on Sentinel articles and the like, I wonder why people are SO against it. It's like a knee-jerk reaction where public transportation and even bike paths = horrible, but spending millions on roads gets no response. Here's a short summary of things I've been thinking about -- let me know what you think:

1. "Orlando isn't dense enough for HSR (or SunRain). Things like that only work in Europe."

First of all, one of the reasons Europe is so dense is because it was built that way around public transportation. Having spent a lot of time in Germany and Spain, I can tell you that people genuinely value living close to public transportation options. While dense communities have always existed there, especially new development in Europe is transportation-centered. I believe Americans are very willing to live in urban developments close to transportation, or else we wouldn't be seeing preliminary development plans around proposed stations. If the transportation is there, we will build around it. Second of all, while Orlando and Tampa aren't dense, they are the centers of fairly large metro areas (about 2 and 5 million). You mean to tell me that from the town I lived in in Germany (10,000 people) to the nearest bigger city (200,000 people) they had hourly trains, but Orlando/Tampa is too sparse?

2. "High speed rail (or any rail) is too expensive to use."

Casual use of public transportation is expensive, in Europe or in the States. Obviously renting a car for a day costs way more than your average day with the car you own. Just like the subway in NYC, the more tickets you buy, the cheaper. Prices for regular riders will be a lot lower with monthly or even yearly passes, as opposed to one single-ride ticket.

3. "We're just building this for tourists."

While I don't think we should spend this kind of money just for tourists' sake, it definitely wouldn't hurt tourism. Orlando is once again the most visited city in the United States, adding billions to our economy every year and creating jobs. Miami is number five, which brings me to the next point...

4. "Just one route doesn't do us any good."

It's unfair to judge just one leg of a regional transportation system. It's like judging I-4 without considering any other interstates or highways. OK, maybe there won't be an overwhelming amount of people traveling from Tampa to Orlando at the beginning, but imagine how much the number would increase once HSR goes down to Miami. That's the type of distance and exposure that really makes HSR's time, price, convenience, and comfort look appealing. Yes, right now the idea of getting of the train and then not having a car seems bleak, but once the HSR is integrated with SunRail or lightrail, more buses, and hourly car rentals, things will look a lot different.

5. "Public transportation is for poor people" and "Public transportation is for tree huggers."

Public transportation is for everybody, period. Everybody in places like NYC or Europe uses it, because it's convenient, not because they're poor. Also, if we want any remnants of nature left in Central Florida, we need to be responsible with our population density and control sprawl. The fact that trains are less contaminating than cars also helps.

6. "Foreign labor and parts will be used" and "We shouldn't spend money like that in this economy."

I know we just discussed this, but to recap: Despite being run by a foreign company, the project would still create thousands of construction and operation jobs for locals. That's not something we can pass up right now. Similarly, we keep spending money on roads. Nobody seems to be sorry we spent over $400 billion (adjusted for inflation) on the interstate system in the '50s. Nobody even cares that they're spending $60 million to fix a highway interchange they didn't plan well. Nobody takes note of the other hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on streets at this very moment in Orlando, and traffic is still getting worse. Again, it's a life style and attitude change we need more than anything.

What else?

[bulldogger]

Whenever the Sentinel runs an article about rail in Orlando or Florida, it hurts to read most of the comments. What is the saying? Ignorance is bliss!

[Jernigan]

I think that it is going to happen and we are able to get the additional pricetag covered by the private sector, then even better.

I've learned a while ago not to read the Sentinel comments, or most other ones. There's a small cynical group on there that literally waste their day complaining about every possible topic. I actually saw an article once where a company was giving away free ice cream cones or something and those idiots sparked a welfare debate over it. Take solace in knowing that surely none of them will make a difference in the real world....even Matt Falconer lol.

Anyway, in the real world, HSR gets all the typical bad arguments against it, but there are some good ones. I'm for it because of the overall momentum that we have going on here - but it sure would have been nice if Tampa had gotten their referendum passed. As it looks now, I'm more likely to be able to be car-free in Orlando and rent a car to go to Tampa than I would be to own a car in Orlando and take a train to Tampa.

[codypet]

Since its in the paper and out in the public, the contractor will be on the hook for the maintenance, the construction, the cost overruns, and will more than likely throw the $280 million to sweeten the deal. There's nothing stopping this rail from becoming a reality....except Scott. I've been given the impression that even with all this positive press around the rail it'll still get canned. Needless to say I'm worried.

[smileguy]

Are planes allowing you to use wifi while in flight yet? I would think more business travelers would think of the HSR as a way to work while commuting. Even if you could get wifi on a plane or a sat feed to an air card, you can't do it during takeoff and landings, which takes away available work time. If you are on a train with internet, you could be working as soon as you sit down. That would be a huge sell in my mind.

A couple months ago, I missed my flight out of Miami, and took Amtrak back instead. It did take longer, but using my phone as a hotspot, I was able to work the whole way back - didn't have to deal with security or airport lines. It was very easy on and off the train. I sat in the snack car the entire trip and worked, even Skype-ing myself into a meeting. Even in the train doesn't provide wi-fi, there is are ways for individuals to stay connected.

[cloudship]

The Acela in the Northeast has Wifi. And yes, there are people who choose it over the plane because it does allow them more comfort to work. Ever try using a laptop in a coach seat on a crowded airplane?

What is interesting about Acela, is that it is not true HSR like this will be. It takes a tad bit longer than flying (normally, depending on how long it takes you from the airport to the city). It also costs more. Yet the Acela is quite popular, almost too popular. Riding in a modern train versus a modern aircraft, the train wins. That's why I would love to see more about the Sieman's demonstration train.

[bic]

Obama Train Plan Could Spur Orlando-to-Miami Link

[rich305]

I feel sick to my stomach.....

Florida Governor Cancels Rail Plan

[prahaboheme]

50,000 jobs out the window. Washington DC does not forget. This will never come back around to Florida.

[DeepEyez]

THIS IS THE REASON WHY ELECTIONS MATTER!!! Many of you all will act like this doesn't mean much and that this is just a bluff.....understand this is no bluff, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY is more interested in thumbing their nose at Obama than actually moving this country forward. I AM DISGUSTED WITH THE STATE OF FLORIDA AND HER AFFAIRS!!!!!

[bic]

50,000 jobs out the window. Washington DC does not forget. This will never come back around to Florida.

And this is the 2nd time a Republican governor has taken it upon himself to shoot down high-speed rail in the state of Florida. This is pretty heartbreaking but I think a fair share of the blame has to be on the decision to have the Tampa-Orlando segment be the first phase of this intra-state HSR. Just because the two cities are near each other, most of the right-of-way had already been acquired, and such a line could be up and running faster than most other proposals in the country doesn't make it viable, especially when being scrutinized by bodies who would blindly vote nay to even the most lucrative proposal just out of principle. Truthfully, as much as I wanted to see HSR come to fruition ASAP, I never thought the Tampa-Orlando segment as it was envisioned made much sense without an Orlando/Tampa-Miami line already in place.

Unfortunately for us, passing on this money doesn't mean we'll get a chance to put together a new proposal that will get reviewed in a couple of years-- no, after already wasting many millions of dollars on rail studies, we won't be getting funding for any more for the foreseeable future. Now we'll sit idly until there is money for a study on how to widen I-4 through Orlando, we'll wait a couple of years for that to be completed, we'll wait for some more funding, a couple of years will pass as the interstate undergoes reconstruction, once completed we'll see that a wider road didn't really alleviate congestion and certainly didn't new urban transit nodes, and by then we'll have a Republican back in the White House (Jeb Bush?). We'll likely have to go through a few more presidents before one is bold enough to set aside billions of dollars on another economic stimulus package that will stress the need for high-speed rail.

[FLClarkKent]

This is pretty heartbreaking but I think a fair share of the blame has to be on the decision to have the Tampa-Orlando segment be the first phase of this intra-state HSR. Just because the two cities are near each other, most of the right-of-way had already been acquired, and such a line could be up and running faster than most other proposals in the country doesn't make it viable, especially when being scrutinized by bodies who would blindly vote nay to even the most lucrative proposal just out of principle. Truthfully, as much as I wanted to see HSR come to fruition ASAP, I never thought the Tampa-Orlando segment as it was envisioned made much sense without an Orlando/Tampa-Miami line already in place.

I think you hit the nail on the head, in a lot of regards.

In every group, there's always a small but vocal minority of what I call "Can't Do's," as in "we can't do this," or "we can't do that." They are typically shortsighted and fail to see - or choose to ignore - the big picture.

It didn't matter how much supporters explained that this was to be the first leg of a high speed rail network, with links to Miami and beyond, the Can't Do's saw only this one project and screamed about how it can't be done. And it'll never work. Etc. Etc. It's the same with SunRail. The critics never acknowledge that it's the building block of a larger system for the future. I hope it's future is secure.