Downtown Norfolk Progress

[varider]

Why does DT have absolutely no street grid and is basically disconnected with the city?

Why does DT have an enormous suburban enclosed shopping mall?

Why does DT have surburban, virginia beach-style apartments on Boush St on one side and tall condos and urban apartments on the other?

Why does DT have only one coool street and even that has lots of vacancies and is full of blight?

Why does DT have no building over 25 floors?

Why does DT have less than 4,000 residents?

Why does DT have a completey under-utilized waterfront?

Basically.. why does Downtown Norfolk suck?

&& why can I walk entire DT in 20 minutes?

Edited March 20, 2010 by varider

[usermel]

There are answers to all your questions but, they all are related to Norfolks past and choices made before me and you were born. The only thing we can hope for is that all the questions you and all of us on this site have get answered one by one. L.G.N.M

[spiker3]

Why does DT have absolutely no street grid and is basically disconnected with the city? With the rest of the city or with just downtown? There was a grid before MacArthur.

Why does DT have an enormous suburban enclosed shopping mall? Without MacArthur nothing else would be downtown, nor would it be a hip, trendy place to be. Virginia Beach residents would never come downtown before, and if it weren't there now they still wouldn't be. Open air and urban designs such as Town Center didn't go in vogue until the turn of the century; MacArthur was planned in the midst of shopping craze but delivered on what it set out to do: be the cornerstone of downtown renewal. Mission successful.

Why does DT have surburban, virginia beach-style apartments on Boush St on one side and tall condos and urban apartments on the other? It's actually a great transition from downtown to Freemason, an area of small rises and apartment buildings.

Why does DT have only one coool street and even that has lots of vacancies and is full of blight? Because progress takes time...and I'm through going through the rest of these

Why does DT have no building over 25 floors?

Why does DT have less than 4,000 residents?

Why does DT have a completey under-utilized waterfront?

Basically.. why does Downtown Norfolk suck?

&& why can I walk entire DT in 20 minutes? Because there's only so much land and World War II we had to house soldiers and sailors. Get over it.

Next time we compare Portland, Phily, Charlotte or whatever with downtown, let's not forget there are dozens of other downtown areas that have nothing like we have and are stuck where we were in the 80s and 90s, a downtown area that was vacant after 5 PM, where no one set foot during the weekends.

[urbanlife]

The art walk thing, using all the empty storefronts to showcase artists is a great idea. It is something they do in Spokane, Washington every year and has really helped a portion of their downtown change for the better.

Why does DT have absolutely no street grid and is basically disconnected with the city? Urban Renewal

Why does DT have an enormous suburban enclosed shopping mall? to fix the damages of urban renewal

Why does DT have surburban, virginia beach-style apartments on Boush St on one side and tall condos and urban apartments on the other? because they thought that was the only way to attract suburbanites...or it was built by suburban developers.

Why does DT have only one coool street and even that has lots of vacancies and is full of blight? urban renewal eliminated all the other potentially cool streets.

Why does DT have no building over 25 floors? lack of demand for anything that tall, bad soil underneath makes taller buildings more costly.

Why does DT have less than 4,000 residents? urban renewal.

Why does DT have a completey under-utilized waterfront? urban renewal, that and the waterfront was originally industrial piers.

Basically.. why does Downtown Norfolk suck? urban renewal.

&& why can I walk entire DT in 20 minutes? because it is a tiny downtown thanks to urban renewal removing much of what would of been considered downtown.

Hope that answers your questions.

Next time we compare Portland, Phily, Charlotte or whatever with downtown, let's not forget there are dozens of other downtown areas that have nothing like we have and are stuck where we were in the 80s and 90s, a downtown area that was vacant after 5 PM, where no one set foot during the weekends.

Sadly, the list of cities that are stuck in past eras and are ghost towns after 5pm is a list a mile long in this country. The successes are easy to notice because there are so few of them overall.

Edited March 20, 2010 by urbanlife

[usermel]

The ghost town after 5pm can be said about most downtowns in the USA as you guys have said. I agree as Iv'e been blessed to travel to all the major and mid major cities in the USA!!! I feel VaRider concerns and hope he see's for his generation being the best is all they settle for. What he can't see that I can being I'm 36 is how horrible downtown was! Downtown ws suffering from horrible image problems in the early 1980's and early 1970's. They then put Waterside downtown to copy what Baltimore had done. It worked for a while and put a bit of pep in downtown.

Recently, Norfolk has developed with apartments and condos that never would have been built in our financial district. Slowly but surely Ive seen it progress. Small things like The Norva and all the GREAT eateries downtown Norfolk didnt exist. Foot traffic was downtown only for major/minor events. Now on the weekends and some weekdays you see patrons on Granby and in MacArthur. Hey, I agree with my homie Varider. There is much still to be desired in our financial district but, at least its improved from when I was 18/19!

There was a time when you couldnt take out of towners downtown, now you can. When folks came for business or fun it was Va Beach or Bush Gardens or bust. Yes, Waterside was a spot but, not so much. Now you can take friends or business clients to Kincaids which by the way is a very nice eatery for clients and they LOVE it. There are some improvements in Norfolk we ALL take for granted but, for Valentines Day I went to a play at Chrysler Hall and seen the Hockey game traffic and could find a space to park. Thats a good thing. I had to use valet(dont like for them to drive my Lexus) but, was so much traffic and no spaces in Walking distance to Kincaids.

I saw a city on the VERGE, not there but, step by step making progress. Downtown has become a destination when befroe MacArthur it was Waterside or bust. Heck, I'd only go downtown for Harry's Bar-B-Que!!! Now,its some variety at least. I Love the growth and the apartments and condos downtown. Its added density and urban feel. Is there room for growth? YES, of course but, some cities are doing less. Light rail is a good sign. When cities do things like light rail its because they know growth is coming or are planning to do things to make light rail useful. We are heading the right way but, a dead economy and military cutbacks will effect the rate of growth.

Lets ALL be blessed were alive to see the transforming of the city. Just look at pictures of 1970's Norfolk's downtown and compare to now!!! Yes, we dont have 40-50 story skyscrapers but, we have very few buildings that fail to get tenants for businesses. We dont have overgrowth. Our local market is dictating whats needed building wise. When a 30-50 story office tower comes it will be because it makes since. Also, we have Va Beach to the east and a growing Chesapeake to the south. Office parks everywhere. Some of what would be downtown is spread around to the Peninsula and other cities. Norfolks suburbs are also competition..

Our metro will be solid and unlike cities on life support due to the economy our government based economy has been the one thing that set us apart. Now, Im all for a stronger financial based economy in Norfolk but, Im grateful we havent suffered like the Midwest has and other regions. Heck, California is giving IOU's. They are really suffering in that state. I been there and its different since the economy crashed. We have the foundation set for prosperity after the economy recovers. Other than the home values falling Norfolk and its metro will be a beacon of light for the future both financially based due to business dollars and military dolllars.

We just need to be grateful and patient!!! That said, I do agree with alot of Variders points about improvements but, see the glass half full more and more as I appreciate what Norfolk has become due to remembering as a child what its rep was(ghetto,5 times more than its thought of now)!!! L.G.N.M

Edited March 21, 2010 by usermel

[varider]

I think that the Downtown Norfolk 2020 plan needs to include the complete redevelopment of the MacArthur Center into a mixed-use, new urbanist, town-center-esqe neighborhood. I saw today the Manhattan-like foot traffic, fast food joints with no room to sit down, and 30 minute waits for the dressing rooms at the Peninsula Town Center. This is just a good mix of retail, restaurants, and an apartment building. Imagine what would happen in an already major urban center with the cultural assests and transit advantages of downtown Norfolk. This redevelopment would spur a revolutionary transformation in the urban streetscape of downtown Norfolk and hundreds of new retailers, restaurants, and other businesses would open. People like open-air shopping and Hampton Roads-ers are looking for urban shopping experiences. The enclosed MacArthur Center has been instrumental in the resurgence of downtown. We have seen Waterside in the 80s as the instrument to spur downtown development, MacArthur Center in the 90s and 00s, I think that a redeveloped Town Center- like MacArthur Center could be that thing to push Norfolk over the top in the 10s. The street grid would be reconnected and it would bring about a much more city feel to Norfolk. The redevelopment could include 5-7 floor apartments/office with the relocated retailers on the ground floors. A Macy's could be brought in as an anchor and the movie theater could become more urban and maybe a CineBistro like PTC is getting. Maybe a bowling alley, skate park , etc. How come suburban Hampton can pull together skate parks, movie theaters/restauant establishments, and bowling alleys in their center.. yet the city that's supposedly the center of HR and has the biggest downtown can't have anything coool like that. Just my two cents. I understand that MacArthur Center isn't old and we have been hurt by the demolition of major buildings.. but this is a different situation. REDEVELOP MAC CENTER.

[spiker3]

Save that post and repost in 20 - 30 years. Because until downtown completely overshadows MacArthur, that type of pie in the sky will not happen. The city invested millions to get MacArthur built to cornerstone downtown revival. To suggest they need to demolish it a mere 10 years later is laughably insane. If and when St Paul's quadrant and the financial district and northern part of downtown are filled to capacity in terms of density and height, then you'll see a move to go beyond what MacArthur is today.

And comparisons to PTC are a complete apples to oranges; if you want to compare a shopping area to PTC the closest are Pembroke and Military Circle, shopping malls that are far past their prime and popularity, exactly like Coliseum was. MacArthur is in the first quarter of it's life cycle and has decades before ideas on how to 'redevelop' are valid to even be considered.

[varider]

This is respectable and understandable.

Well can MacArthur at least get storefronts open to Monticello and City Hall? An urban target or macy's? I don't understand how PTC can get retailers that aren't found anywhere else in the state but Granby street can't get anything unique.

[VBIllini13]

This is respectable and understandable.

Well can MacArthur at least get storefronts open to Monticello and City Hall? An urban target or macy's? I don't understand how PTC can get retailers that aren't found anywhere else in the state but Granby street can't get anything unique.

Actually, according to Rick Henn, Norfolk's Senior Projects Analysts, as of last summer (so I don't know if they still are) the city is in talks with a possible 3rd anchor for MacArthur Center. He didn't go into much detail as to whom it might be, but he didn't play off the possibility of an urban Best Buy when I asked him about it. It could still be anything though...

In response to why Downtown is so small, it's because it historically has been that small and before urban renewal it wasn't too much bigger. You basically only had what is now Harbor Park and the parking lots and garages to the east of city hall added to downtown pre-urban renewal. East of that is heavy industry, west is freemason and ghent, and north and northeast was slums and has been either redeveloped into something else or rebuilt as lower income housing.

[urbanlife]

This is respectable and understandable.

Well can MacArthur at least get storefronts open to Monticello and City Hall? An urban target or macy's? I don't understand how PTC can get retailers that aren't found anywhere else in the state but Granby street can't get anything unique.

I will say I agree with your pipe dream, the mall should of been built as a collection of blocks of buildings that gave the area an urban street feel....if this mall was being built today, it would be that way, but at the time it was built, it made more sense to build it as an upscale suburban style mall.

Obviously this mall will not be redeveloped anytime in the near future. After SPQ is built out fully and there has been some serious growth and the mall is starting to show its age, then there might be talk for it, but that will probably be in 30-50 years before anything like that happens (conservative guess.)

Monticello could be renovated to include more storefronts, but I dont see any serious renovations like that happening until after a third anchor is added, which it would be more than likely that the third tenant building would be designed in such a way that it would be surrounded with small storefronts and the department store taking up the core of the building. Personally I would love to see condos, apartments, and/or a hotel above the third tenant because there is nothing to that says that a mall cant have a tower attached to it.

City Hall is another beast entirely, and a street that I wish still looked like the City Hall before urban renewal, but that is a different topic. The problem with City Hall now is that much of it is the garage ramp, which it would be a massive thing to deal with just to add a hand full of storefronts that wouldnt even create enough of a return to justify such a renovation. City Hall will probably always look like the way it does today.

Also another huge issue with renovating the mall is the shape and design of it. To create blocks out of it would be near impossible because of the shapes of the garages without having to completely tear down the garages to reconfigure them, which doing that, you might as well take down the whole building. It would be possible to almost divide the building into 4 pieces, basically turning the corridor of the mall into the streetscapes, but again, that would be a massive redevelopment for a mall that is still considered young. Even that renovation would still require some serious demolition to parts of the garages. You should look at it on Google Maps, those garages are seriously poorly laid out at will be such a problem for any future plans for that mall.

I was being nerdy and did a quick cut and paste in Paint. The black lines are the streets that should of gone in, thus creating several urban blocks within the city that could of then contained all the needed parking garages, shops, and department stores. Even more so, the city could of given the outside street areas to the mall, thus making them private areas that would then be patrolled and governed by the mall, much like the current interior of the mall is.

Edited March 21, 2010 by urbanlife

[varider]

Well you guys crushed my pipe dream, haha.

The city needs to try and push for a third anchor development.. That "green space" aboslutely sucks and with the development of Wells Fargo and TCC Student Center, the third anchor would really make Monticello Ave complete. I agree with urbanlife, make it a mixed use tower.. maybe 10-15 floors.

I have something else I want to address now.

I think the majority of us feel that the every structure inside of the SPQ needs to fall unmercifully to the bulldozer. I don't understand how the city isn't looking at that massive chunk of land as an extension of the CBD. The SPQ plan needs to create a gridded system connected to the CBD with 7-10 floor buildings throughout with a couple low-rise,urban style apartment/condos. This should be looked more as Center City East than SPQ. We can't allow another Freemason to be built.

I'd love to see the SPQ look like this in 15 years

[ronsmytheiii]

Monticello could be renovated to include more storefronts, but I dont see any serious renovations like that happening until after a third anchor is added, which it would be more than likely that the third tenant building would be designed in such a way that it would be surrounded with small storefronts and the department store taking up the core of the building. Personally I would love to see condos, apartments, and/or a hotel above the third tenant because there is nothing to that says that a mall cant have a tower attached to it.

City Hall is another beast entirely, and a street that I wish still looked like the City Hall before urban renewal, but that is a different topic. The problem with City Hall now is that much of it is the garage ramp, which it would be a massive thing to deal with just to add a hand full of storefronts that wouldnt even create enough of a return to justify such a renovation. City Hall will probably always look like the way it does today.

Also another huge issue with renovating the mall is the shape and design of it. To create blocks out of it would be near impossible because of the shapes of the garages without having to completely tear down the garages to reconfigure them, which doing that, you might as well take down the whole building. It would be possible to almost divide the building into 4 pieces, basically turning the corridor of the mall into the streetscapes, but again, that would be a massive redevelopment for a mall that is still considered young. Even that renovation would still require some serious demolition to parts of the garages. You should look at it on Google Maps, those garages are seriously poorly laid out at will be such a problem for any future plans for that mall.

Military circle has a hotel tower attached to it, but both the Mall and Tower look terrible.

I would not be too concerned about the streetscape of City Hall Avenue. Stores could be added to the Nordstrom side, but light rail turns away about where the parking deck begins, and St. Paul's really restricts the flow of pedestrians, So concentrate on Plume Street. IF we are really hurting for retail and dont need the parking anymore, bulldoze the North parking deck and build a road through the middle with stores on either side.

[virginia pe]

I think the majority of us feel that the every structure inside of the SPQ needs to fall unmercifully to the bulldozer. I don't understand how the city isn't looking at that massive chunk of land as an extension of the CBD. The SPQ plan needs to create a gridded system connected to the CBD with 7-10 floor buildings throughout with a couple low-rise,urban style apartment/condos. This should be looked more as Center City East than SPQ. We can't allow another Freemason to be built.

I agree with the sentiment that SPQ needs some major bulldozer-ing, but there are some buildings that just will not, and should not, be razed. I went back and reviewed the SPQ Vision Statement (http://www.norfolk.g.../SPQ_Vision.pdf). I do not see the city demolishing the two city-owned buildings - a fire station and the school board building. Then there are the four historic churches - Queen Street Baptist, First Baptist, St. John's AME, and St. Mary's. These churches are not merely old, like the buildings that were razed for the Westin. These buildings are truly historic. and should be preserved. It will also be politically impossible to bulldoze them. People are even more passionate about saving their churches than they are about saving their homes.

The part of the vision statement that is most troubling is on page 24: Replacement of public housing units on one-for-one basis. It looks like a repeat of their bad judgment from 50 years ago that put public housing downtown in the first place.

[varider]

The only part of the plan that I can say I like is the re-establishment of the street grid and especially the connection of Church St. into downtown. I don't like the limit on residential units to 1,900 to 2,100 and office space to 260K sq. feet or the 4-6 floor limit.. It seems like the are trying to build a modern freemason when this needs to be looked at as DOWNTOWN NORFOLK. I think buildings should be 5-10 floors and about 3,000 residential units over the next 15-20 years.

Also, I don't understand one bit why the city is spending so much time to plan the SPQ. It looks like the SPQ plan started in 2006! Four years later the final copy isn't even released to the public! This plan needs to be finalized so we can move to the implementation stages (demolition, street construction, utility work ,etc.)

[ronsmytheiii]

The only part of the plan that I can say I like is the re-establishment of the street grid and especially the connection of Church St. into downtown. I don't like the limit on residential units to 1,900 to 2,100 and office space to 260K sq. feet or the 4-6 floor limit.. It seems like the are trying to build a modern freemason when this needs to be looked at as DOWNTOWN NORFOLK. I think buildings should be 5-10 floors and about 3,000 residential units over the next 15-20 years.

Also, I don't understand one bit why the city is spending so much time to plan the SPQ. It looks like the SPQ plan started in 2006! Four years later the final copy isn't even released to the public! This plan needs to be finalized so we can move to the implementation stages (demolition, street construction, utility work ,etc.)

Planning is designed to take time and to take into consideration the needs and desires of those who live there, it would not be fair to just impose something on the populace. THat is one of the cardinal rules of urban design, that to serve the clientel so if they don't want anything bigger, then that is a limit.

[urbanlife]

The only part of the plan that I can say I like is the re-establishment of the street grid and especially the connection of Church St. into downtown. I don't like the limit on residential units to 1,900 to 2,100 and office space to 260K sq. feet or the 4-6 floor limit.. It seems like the are trying to build a modern freemason when this needs to be looked at as DOWNTOWN NORFOLK. I think buildings should be 5-10 floors and about 3,000 residential units over the next 15-20 years.

Also, I don't understand one bit why the city is spending so much time to plan the SPQ. It looks like the SPQ plan started in 2006! Four years later the final copy isn't even released to the public! This plan needs to be finalized so we can move to the implementation stages (demolition, street construction, utility work ,etc.)

I wouldnt worry too much about the number of units the city is calling for in the SPQ because these numbers are just conservative numbers and I have yet to hear any developer names being thrown around yet.

The one for one unit when it comes to low income makes sense, the city has no desire to lose any number of that housing nor to they want to seem like they are forcing anyone out of the neighborhood to replace them with better people. Plus with this being a predominantly black neighborhood it makes sense for the city to wish to tread carefully with what to do with the people living there. Also, nothing says the city cannot better control who lives there with this redevelopment with better programs and regulations on who can live in such units.

Also, the height of these buildings are less important than you might think. Looking over the documents the city has for this so far, 4-6 floors is a respectable density height, also it points out that there would be taller buildings throughout based on the supply and demand. The only thing I would take issue with is that I think the western end of the SPQ should have the highest density and the taller buildings and should act more as if it were apart of downtown with the possibility for more office space and such, but again, there is no developers that I have heard apart of this yet and there is nothing actually being constructed, so plans can change and things can later be added.

The most important thing with this plan is the idea of bringing back blocks to that portion of the city, which will do wonders in itself. Also another important thing will be the two active streets that will cut through it, hopefully that will be done right to give the city two more active streets to have people walking up and down and being apart of, much like Granby is now.

Once this plan goes into action, I am guessing the next step will be going after state and federal money to help pay for the replacements of the low income housing, and possibly the restructuring of the street grid. After that, it would be important for the city to start working with developers or create a department within the city that acts like its own developer to begin construction of such a project.

My guess is that there would be a removal of everyone that lives there or stages of removal to allow them time to relocate. Then the next move would be for the city to start with a starter project within it. Something that involves 4 blocks to help build the gateway into the district or something. Making this starter development in it into something that is seen as a destination location is very important. Once that is finished, then the city could work with multiple developers with the rest of the properties as interest for this district grows. Having regulations for what developers can do and how many units of low income are needed within each building is very important. That is something that is used in just about every major city today, so it shouldnt be seen as something new or difficult for a developer to work with.

Once all of this starts moving forward, everything else will fall into place fairly fast. I would love to see the city to run a streetcar route from SPQ to Oceanview to help better connect the city through rail.

But nonetheless, all that I am talking about here will take years before it goes into effect, and the biggest issue with this is how much the city council is willing to push to get things like this moving forward at a faster pace. It would be interesting to see which council members consider this redevelopment to be a top priority. Personally, I think it should be high on the list for Norfolk much more than a pro team because I think if Norfolk waits too long on this and the VaBeach begins their redevelopment of their downtown in full force, it could potentially put a strain on other downtowns and their redevelopment projects.

[varider]

Could someone tell me if they have heard anything on the Jimmy John's that was supposed to come downtown?

It was set to open in February, according to the article.. It's now April? Any work going on?

[varider]

I suggest you all read this...

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/can-we-get-there-here-envisioning-future-downtown-norfolk

[urbanlife]

I am not sure if that is a completely stupid article or an amazing one. My theory with cities is if it isnt growing then it is dying. Therefore construction throughout the city is always needed or there is a stagnant to the city. The exception to this is when a district becomes so developed and so high end that there is no more need for further development, then that district is just what it is as long as it stays high end...which means eventually it will need more renovations to stay high end.

I will say that it has always annoyed me that for Norfolk, their future lies all in downtown. What will happen in downtown? Who will be living there? Is this workforce housing going to be enough? Is downtown becoming hip? What bothers me about all of this is this should be the questions being asked about all of Norfolk, each neighborhood. Once Norfolk gets its act together and acts like a urban city of neighborhoods, then we can start talking about how hip the city is becoming. Then we will start seeing people proud of their city and their neighborhood. When we start seeing facebook pages for neighborhoods in Norfolk saying how great their part of the city is and how much it represents them, then we will see some serious changes.

But hearing complaints about the construction usually just make me laugh because that complaint will always be there, if the article wasnt complaining about the construction it would be complaining that there is no growth in the downtown and how stagnant and dead the downtown is. So the Pilot is wondering why the printed newspaper is becoming irrelevant? Well it is because they are wasting their time complaining about the typical rather than investigating in the possible. Anyone could see these complaints without an article written about them, but people have a hard time understanding why they have complaints to begin with and what the true source of such complaints are. If the Pilot did some real reporting, they would be able to expand peoples' ideas of what is going on within their city...the Pilot could be that media source to point out that this movement forward should be happening in every city in Norfolk and that Norfolk should act more like a proud city of neighborhoods.

[varider]

Me and a couple friends went downtown for the past two days, and I honestly love it so much. I know I always complain about not having enough skyscrapers, retail, and huge arenas.... but downtown Norfolk is amazing in my eyes. It'so busy on the weekdays, I love the urban feel of Granby and the foot traffc with the retaurants and stores that you can peek in.. I love the busses, taxis, police cars, etc. I love Main St with all the tall office buildings and the cafe's and deli's with people walking everywhere.. I love Monticelllo with the mall and the people waiting for concerts at the NorVa.. I love dingy Waterside and the Town Point Park with the dirty water and the big boats passing by with the view of Portsmouth and the Port and the Shipyard.. I love Boush St with the large condos and the urban grocery store and the bell that rings at the Church every hour.. I love Freemason with the row homes and large apartment towers.. I love Brambleton with the Belmont, Residence Inn, and the monsterous Hague Tower.. I love the view of the skyline from the top of the Freemason St. parking deck. I love looking at the historic Norfolk stuff on the third floor of the library.. and walking through the Monticello place looking at the artists working.I love Norfolk. It's great to watch the day-by-day progress. It's amazing as it stands now.. with the leaning tower and the stuffy library, and the Union Mission, and the vacancies on Granby, and the stalled Westin, and the crusty courthouse, and the LRT construction, and the Wells Fargo Center halfway done, and the Student Center shell... Imagine how AMAZING it will be when the leaning tower is affordable apartments and retail space.. when the Slover library is completed and state-of-the-art.. when the Union Mission is the Rockefeller.. when Granby St. is booming, when the Westin is built,when the courthouse is replaced, when the Student Center is open.

[Telmnstr]

[ronsmytheiii]

Wow, amazing shots, the TCC one looks professional level!

[Telmnstr]

*blush*

Just was eating lunch on the patio of Chili's with two friends from Dom Enterprises.

It was a nice day.

Thanks!

Edited April 9, 2010 by Telmnstr

[VAGATOR]

Great pictures Telmnstr. The TCC building looks quite massive, I'm going to have to check it out when I get back.

[usermel]

I agree, great pictures Tel, as usual!!! L.G.N.M