SouthEnd Midrise Projects

[CLTProductions]

I will say that the service is very bad, even at the bar. However I am not sure I entirely mind the prices, they aren't too bad considering how much some of the beers they're service cost in a 6-pack anyway. They definitely need to step up their service game and having better specials (and liquor hopefully soon?) won't hurt.

[ScottCLT]

I would hate to see WOB go. I do really love that place. I can walk there, though, so parking isn't an issue for me. I can't say that I have ever received bad service there. With the iPhone/Android app, it helps me discover beers that I would have never ordered otherwise, and I do love their loyalty club too (I'm a little over 100 now).

[Urbanity]

I think its a nice idea to think that Southend can become a walkable community which contains retail (in addition to bars and restrauants). Unfortunately the majority of Charlotteans still expect / want to drive when running errands or shopping. 

So Southend is just a prettier version of University City that happens to be closer to Uptown.  Gotcha!

[kermit]

So Southend is just a prettier version of University City that happens to be closer to Uptown.  Gotcha!

Interesting interpretation. But, given the absence of big boxes in Southend, I am having a hard time visualizing the comparison.

I have spent enough time at Atherton market to see that 90+ % of its customers drive there. This, and many other observations of Charlotte shoppers makes me think that Charlotteans (on average) reflexivly expect to drive when shopping. I do think this mindset can (eventually) be changed, but it is going to take more than a decade. Building pedestrian-oriented retail in Charlotte without taking this mindset into account will (IMHO) lead to its failure.

Do you disagree?

 

EDIT: I am not saying that suburban type retail must be built, just that allowances such as altrvr's neighborhood parking deck proposals for NoDa, PM and Southend are necessary before neighborhood retail is sustainable.

Edited December 26, 2013 by kermit

[15895]

I'm not sure it's a "Charlotte" thing (in context of SouthEnd and other urban 'hoods) or just it's the only option we have sometimes.

I think were it possible to not drive everywhere, then people in SouthEnd wouldn't.

Who would want to take Light Rail or Bus to PetSmart, for example, at lets say 5pm for Christmas shopping? Keeping in mind it gets dark at 5pm. Would the average Person from SouthEnd take Lynx or drive their car? what other pet stores are located in SouthEnd?

Edited December 26, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[Urbanity]

Interesting interpretation. But, given the absence of big boxes in Southend, I am having a hard time visualizing the comparison.

I have spent enough time at Atherton market to see that 90+ % of its customers drive there. This, and many other observations of Charlotte shoppers makes me think that Charlotteans (on average) reflexivly expect to drive when shopping. I do think this mindset can (eventually) be changed, but it is going to take more than a decade. Building pedestrian-oriented retail in Charlotte without taking this mindset into account will (IMHO) lead to its failure.

Do you disagree?

What you are missing is my basic point which was admittedly delivered in a sarcastic manner.  My sarcasm about University City comparison wasn't on something as superficial as type of stores, but lipstick on a pig of a car reliant neighborhood attitude in regards to neighborhoods with  pockets of pedestrian activity that still are auto reliant.

 

South End is sold/marketed/celebrated as walkable and urban - not as car centric.  This is my point.

 

This board in particular talks about South End, Uptown, NoDa, Plaza-Midwood as examples of what is right in Charlotte and what attracts us to a forum about cities and urban living in general which seems to be, in my mind, parts of the city that is about being out of your car for the most part.  

Park in a lot/garage and walk a little, but don't bemoan the lack of parking in front of every establishments (I mean generally btw - not you specifically)

 

No - this does not mean ignoring the reality of the larger city, county, region in which it exists, but it certainly means a higher standard for this neighborhood (and similar ones already mentioned) for its bars/restaurants/shopping than parking issues.

 

Why bother with the Light rail?  Why are we bothering with debates of mass transit at all?  Why are we talking at all about street retail?  Why would anyone on this board even talk about walk ability at all?  Why cram as many apartment complexes with "urban design" into an area and charge inflated rents if  you are not also selling a lifestyle of their being a reason to be there.   If all it means at the end of the day is small McCity type areas of the city that look like a walking city but in essence aren't since its all car dependent then why bother have this or any separate discussion thread of neighborhoods in Charlotte? 

 

If the very neighborhoods that are supposed to encourage a change in the car-centric mindset of Charlotte than why the hoopla about live/work/play neighborhoods which SouthEnd in particular is supposed to be one?

 

That's what I was trying to get at in my post.  To repeat myself - I do not ignore the larger city/region will be car centric.  That's not my point and that point is not missed by me, but do think that part of being a fan of real urban cores and neighborhoods means accepting that the car is not the primary focus in such areas.

[Norm2]

What you are missing is my basic point which was admittedly delivered in a sarcastic manner.  My sarcasm about University City comparison wasn't on something as superficial as type of stores, but lipstick on a pig of a car reliant neighborhood attitude in regards to neighborhoods with  pockets of pedestrian activity that still are auto reliant.

 

South End is sold/marketed/celebrated as walkable and urban - not as car centric.  This is my point.

 

This board in particular talks about South End, Uptown, NoDa, Plaza-Midwood as examples of what is right in Charlotte and what attracts us to a forum about cities and urban living in general which seems to be, in my mind, parts of the city that is about being out of your car for the most part.  

Park in a lot/garage and walk a little, but don't bemoan the lack of parking in front of every establishments (I mean generally btw - not you specifically)

 

No - this does not mean ignoring the reality of the larger city, county, region in which it exists, but it certainly means a higher standard for this neighborhood (and similar ones already mentioned) for its bars/restaurants/shopping than parking issues.

 

Why bother with the Light rail?  Why are we bothering with debates of mass transit at all?  Why are we talking at all about street retail?  Why would anyone on this board even talk about walk ability at all?  Why cram as many apartment complexes with "urban design" into an area and charge inflated rents if  you are not also selling a lifestyle of their being a reason to be there.   If all it means at the end of the day is small McCity type areas of the city that look like a walking city but in essence aren't since its all car dependent then why bother have this or any separate discussion thread of neighborhoods in Charlotte? 

 

If the very neighborhoods that are supposed to encourage a change in the car-centric mindset of Charlotte than why the hoopla about live/work/play neighborhoods which SouthEnd in particular is supposed to be one?

 

That's what I was trying to get at in my post.  To repeat myself - I do not ignore the larger city/region will be car centric.  That's not my point and that point is not missed by me, but do think that part of being a fan of real urban cores and neighborhoods means accepting that the car is not the primary focus in such areas.

With Charlotte being a Southern American city, which is mostly a sprawling city that is not very dense and mass transit usage is low, developers will design everything with a car being in the forefront the majority of the time. Even in the areas of town like South End that are supposed to be "walk-able" and are marketed as such, may not truly be walk-able because developers will cater to cars first and pedestrians second. With car centered development having been occurring since the 1950's, new developments that are not catered to cars, especially in southern cities, would probably not attract as many people. I think that it sucks, but this is the reality of things. Until we start paying $5 for a gallon of gas and people reject their cars completely for transportation, we will continue to see the dominance of car centered development and city zoning across Charlotte and the south part of our nation.

[Windsurfer]

With Charlotte being a Southern American city, which is mostly a sprawling city that is not very dense and mass transit usage is low, developers will design everything with a car being in the forefront the majority of the time. Even in the areas of town like South End that are supposed to be "walk-able" and are marketed as such, may not truly be walk-able because developers will cater to cars first and pedestrians second. With car centered development having been occurring since the 1950's, new developments that are not catered to cars, especially in southern cities, would probably not attract as many people. I think that it sucks, but this is the reality of things. Until we start paying $5 for a gallon of gas and people reject their cars completely for transportation, we will continue to see the dominance of car centered development and city zoning across Charlotte and the south part of our nation.

This is where I have to agree a little with the Teapartiers and Libertarians (too much government). When we redeveloped a building in 3rd Ward, we were required by the city to provide a certain amount of parking, despite knowing that we really didn't need so much. In other words, we were a developer who didn't really see the point of so much parking and yet were required to fulfill the parking ratio of POTENTIAL employees and spaces. If we had been able to estimate our usage, and gotten it wrong, we would've had nobody to blame but ourselves. Instead, we ended up knocking down a very old, and possibly useful building to someone, for parking.

[southslider]

True, market urbanism creates walkable places. It takes government interventions and subsidies for car-dependency.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Well stated, Norm and Southslider. Although Tyson's Corner has been one of the worst sprawling offenders in the nation, Fairfax County is now learning the error of its ways and demanding that developers redo the area as a dense, transit-oriented urban community. If Tyson's can do it, Charlotte certainly can.

[kermit]

Per CBJ, sounds like Marsh may include some of the apartment land (which is substantial in size) in the redevelopment. This also does not include the part of the shopping center south of Elmhurst across from the Pepsi warehouse. http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2013/11/marsh-properties-planning-sedgefield.html

According to a current tenant at the shopping center everyone must be out by September. He had heard that the smaller center (south of Elmhurst) will be redeveloped after construction is completed on the Poindexter-elmhurst site.

[TarHeelCLT]

Long time lurker, first time poster ...

 

As a southend resident, I'd like to weigh in on a few points.

 

1. I think that the perception of drivers within southend is a bit off here.  I don't drive within southend, if I'm going out at night in southend, then I'll walk/bike/cab it wherever.  Same thing if I'm going to coffee/lunch/brunch whatever. While I can't speak for everyone in the area, all of my friends here share the same habits. I'll really only drive if I have to leave southend.  This the big point to make here - outside of bars and restaurants you have to leave southend to do anything.  Groceries, pet supplies, movies, anything other than dinner/drinks requires a car.  This will be a real walkable community when an average person could survive a month without a car.

 

2. The demographic of southend is not "charlotte people".  The large majority of residents in all of the apartment complexes that are going up recently are 2 types of people - young transplants and recent college grads (massive generalizations of course).  If a population of people are going to lead CLT in leaving their cars behind this; will be it, they aren't completely married to their cars yet.

 

 

 

[TheBigShamrock8]

just did a quick google for "The Fountains and car breakins". Found them on apartmentratings.com. It seems the car breakins are true. The Fountains removed the back gate, which allows access to anybody. Guests do no have parking on site. Somebody was robbed a gun point. The biggest thing that stood out to me is residents having their cars towed by the front office. Each post other residents have commented as well.

 

Seems like theres a HUGE mess at The Fountains.

 

http://www.apartmentratings.com/rate/NC-Charlotte-Fountains-Southend.html

The gates had to be replaced because they were built as single and needed to be double.  The single gate was too heavy and caused the operators to fail.

 

The gates have been up an operational since 12/6/13.  Also, the break in happened because a car with the criminals followed a resident in.  This can happen at every single apartment complex in Charlotte.

[nuprotocol]

The gates had to be replaced because they were built as single and needed to be double.  The single gate was too heavy and caused the operators to fail.

 

The gates have been up an operational since 12/6/13.  Also, the break in happened because a car with the criminals followed a resident in.  This can happen at every single apartment complex in Charlotte.

 

So the situation there isn't a dire as those few residents make it out to be?

[TheBigShamrock8]

The gates have been up and functional since the beginning of December.  I wouldn't call it a good situation.  Nobody likes getting their cars broken into and the mugging makes it worse.

 

I think what these residents are ignoring is the fact that south end is a redeveloping area that is still very close in proximity to historically high crime parts of town (and itself was a very high crime part of town).  Redevelopment is great, but these properties aren't Fort Knox and sometimes unfortunate events happen.  I'd say it's a matter of time before the other projects have similar instances OR the issue with crime risk in the area reduces altogether.

[Urbanity]

Re: car break-ins at Fountain.  

 

When I lived at Post Uptown there was a 2-3 month period when there were constant car break-ins and they are a gated facility.  In the Post Uptown case it was a matter of a targeted spree which eventually was tied to someone within the building (resident).   

 

I think the Fountain as well as most of South End is safe, and I think that safety becomes a false security blanket for people who flout common sense by leaving stuff visible in their cars.  Enough people start doing that and it's ripe for a bunch of hits by such little crime sprees.    

I see it less of people need to fear crime in a certain complex then people need to realize they live in a city and you need to take certain precautions. 

[ah59396]

I haven't seen any movement at the Publix site since they excavated the underground parking, which was easily a month ago. Anyone have an idea what's going on there? The apartment project next door is plugging along at a good rate.

[TheBigShamrock8]

To the best of my knowledge they haven't finalized a contractor on the publix.

[nuprotocol]

I haven't seen any movement at the Publix site since they excavated the underground parking, which was easily a month ago. Anyone have an idea what's going on there? The apartment project next door is plugging along at a good rate.

 

I've noticed the same. In fact, I even walk by there on Saturday and Sunday nights sometimes. The apartment next door has guys working all week long. They work late Saturday night and even on Sunday night. Each time I've walked by Publix to check on the progress, nobody is there, but the apartment next door always has guys working. It's really odd.

[sutterbomb]

Long time lurker, first time poster ...

 

As a southend resident, I'd like to weigh in on a few points.

 

1. I think that the perception of drivers within southend is a bit off here.  I don't drive within southend, if I'm going out at night in southend, then I'll walk/bike/cab it wherever.  Same thing if I'm going to coffee/lunch/brunch whatever. While I can't speak for everyone in the area, all of my friends here share the same habits. I'll really only drive if I have to leave southend.  This the big point to make here - outside of bars and restaurants you have to leave southend to do anything.  Groceries, pet supplies, movies, anything other than dinner/drinks requires a car.  This will be a real walkable community when an average person could survive a month without a car.

 

Also a Southend resident and I have to agree - my habits are pretty similar. I'll always walk for drinks or dinner, but am driving to run most errands out of necessity. The other factor to consider is that not everyone who hangs out in Southend actually lives in Southend. Going back to the WOB thread - it's hard to convince friends from Southpark area to come over to WOB when parking is always a pain. It'd be a different situation for something that feels like more of a destination, but a mediocre chain that has similar competitors in other areas of the city is not a very compelling offer.

[archiham04]

^ I am in total agreement with TarHeelCLT and sutterbomb's perspective.  I have worked in SouthEnd for seven years, always walk my errands during the day, and find that SouthEnd can accommodate most of my needs.  I walk to lunch, to the ups store, to the market for groceries, to office depot for office supplies.  Many are beyond the technical quarter mile radius, but the pedestrian friendly lightrail greenway (in my opinion) expands the walk-zone to about a half to three quarters of a mile.

[nuprotocol]

Just moved to this area about 3mos ago and love it. We really don't want to leave, but don't want to rent after our lease is up. Are there any good areas to purchase instead of renting? I think the only option I saw was Southborough.

[Guest]

Just moved to this area about 3mos ago and love it. We really don't want to leave, but don't want to rent after our lease is up. Are there any good areas to purchase instead of renting? I think the only option I saw was Southborough.

How long til your lease is up, there are a lot of townhomes coming online in the next 9-18mos

[nuprotocol]

How long til your lease is up, there are a lot of townhomes coming online in the next 9-18mos

 

That sounds just right. Lease is up in October.

[RugbyPike#11]

There are some affordable single family homes around New Bern Station, although that doesn't exactly keep you in the heart of South End. If you're a little more adventurous and willing to wait a little bit longer for the extreme renovations/teardown/new constructions to start happening, homes around Scaleybark are even cheaper. Of course that puts you even further away from the heart of South End.