Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[JRCLT]

Yikes I hope CATS is taking this seriously. I wish they were more transparent and more vocal about responding to things such as these. People may strike it down as an excuse but I personally would like an excuse over silence.

[Desert Power]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:46 PM, kermit said:

This is the second event (home MLS game)where CATS had a chance to generate goodwill and attract a new group of riders. It seems that CATS either does not see that as an opportunity or they just don't give a crap.

 

Yeah. No way will I take the light rail for games because of the expectation this would be the result. Throw in a Hornets game and people going out for St Pat's and there is no way. Unfortunately to have to pay $20/game for parking despite living a couple blocks from the rail.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, Desert Power said:

Yeah. No way will I take the light rail for games because of the expectation this would be the result. Throw in a Hornets game and people going out for St Pat's and there is no way. Unfortunately to have to pay $20/game for parking despite living a couple blocks from the rail.

I'm sorry for this person's experience this weekend, but I took the street car to uptown to attend Charlotte FC's inaugural game, and it worked swimmingly for me.  I've also taken the street car to the arena for a couple hornets games, and have had no issue.  I don't think I'd be so quick to write off light rail and streetcar for massive events just because things were slow last weekend.  

[Nathan2]

14 hours ago, RANYC said:

I'm sorry for this person's experience this weekend, but I took the street car to uptown to attend Charlotte FC's inaugural game, and it worked swimmingly for me.  I've also taken the street car to the arena for a couple hornets games, and have had no issue.  I don't think I'd be so quick to write off light rail and streetcar for massive events just because things were slow last weekend.  

The exact same thing happened at the previous Charlotte FC and hornets game so its definitely not a one off event. 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

The exact same thing happened at the previous Charlotte FC and hornets game so its definitely not a one off event. 

But it didn't happen to me - at least during the time I was headed to the game , so you're speaking for your own experience.  My point is for someone to say he lives a couple blocks from the rail but will now drive to games and pay $20 to park because he's now writing off this infrastructure for big events is rash.  Do I suggest taking the light rail or streetcar for doctors' appointments or to grab a loaf of bread before dinner guests arrive?  No.  For regional impacts where 30,000-80,000 regional denizens cluster, can one perhaps bake in an extra 15 minutes in travel planning to not clog our center center with gassy, smog-belching machines, well I feel that's reasonable.

Not excusing CATS, and they need to be on a PR offensive, but come on people, a bit of grace and patience.    

Edited March 22, 2022 by RANYC

[slipperypete]

42 minutes ago, RANYC said:

But it didn't happen to me - at least during the time I was headed to the game , so you're speaking for your own experience.  My point is for someone to say he lives a couple blocks from the rail but will now drive to games and pay $20 to park because he's now writing off this infrastructure for big events is rash.  Do I suggest taking the light rail or streetcar for doctors' appointments or to grab a loaf of bread before dinner guests arrive?  No.  For regional impacts where 30,000-80,000 regional denizens cluster, can one perhaps bake in an extra 15 minutes in travel planning to not clog our center center with gassy, smog-belching machines, well I feel that's reasonable.

Not excusing CATS, and they need to be on a PR offensive, but come on people, a bit of grace and patience.    

And just because you had a good experience on the streetcar (which wouldn't be as overwhelmed for a special event, since it doesn't have park & ride ridership), it doesn't give you the right to downplay many others' poor experience. Maybe a little grace? 

CATS should absolutely be considering uptown special events in their scheduling and adding capacity.  They have done this before for the Panthers. At minimum they should be communicating a plan that will get this kind of rider a better experience. Otherwise they're going to alienate people from transit as an option for this kind of event. And that would be really unfortunate.  

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, slipperypete said:

And just because you had a good experience on the streetcar (which wouldn't be as overwhelmed for a special event, since it doesn't have park & ride ridership), it doesn't give you the right to downplay many others' poor experience. Maybe a little grace? 

I responded to this person's negative perception during his/her attempts to access a special event also.  Someone had a negative experience, I and the riders with me had a positive one heading to the same event.  Shouldn't as many experiences as possible be captured before concluding CATS Transit to Special Events is systemically flawed?  Not saying there aren't always opportunities for CATS to improve, but I also know CATS has a host of binding constraints it must consider. 

In fact, the binding constraints on CATS are far greater and more stringent than the binding constraints on our ability to complain about it and quickly post our grievances on a social media platform in an effort to undermine it to the masses.  Sure we could message CATS directly about a negative experience to get their feedback, but I suppose it's more in fashion to broadside CATS in public so that perhaps a humiliation of its people and leadership spurs it to action more quickly?  

Suggesting someone not conclude to write off a mode of mass transit isn't downplaying the person's poor experience, it's reframing the experience to not lead to the same conclusion.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by RANYC

[slipperypete]

59 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I responded to this person's negative perception during his/her attempts to access a special event also.  Someone had a negative experience, I and the riders with me had a positive one heading to the same event.  Shouldn't as many experiences as possible be captured before concluding CATS Transit to Special Events is systemically flawed?  Not saying there aren't always opportunities for CATS to improve, but I also know CATS has a host of binding constraints it must consider. 

In fact, the binding constraints on CATS are far greater and more stringent than the binding constraints on our ability to complain about it and quickly post our grievances on a social media platform in an effort to undermine it to the masses.  Sure we could message CATS directly about a negative experience to get their feedback, but I suppose it's more in fashion to broadside CATS in public so that perhaps a humiliation of its people and leadership spurs it to action more quickly?  

Suggesting someone not conclude to write off a mode of mass transit isn't downplaying the person's poor experience, it's reframing the experience to not lead to the same conclusion.

CATS Blue Line (which is our highest ridership park & ride option) gave a poor experience to a lot of riders after the first two MLS home games. Agree?   That is not an assertion that anything is systematically flawed, and I certainly didn't say it was. The only reasonable transit option for many people to a big uptown event is blue line park & ride. The blue line specifically is stressed after events due to that park & ride volume. This is predictable, and pre-pandemic it seemed to be handled better. 

My point was: 

1. CATS should go back to providing more capacity before and after big uptown events. This is what I got from the other people sharing their poor experience, and I don't think it's a controversial point. Based the CATS twitter feed they agree and have said they'll do better. That's cool. They wouldn't have had a chance to improve (or at least to voice their plan to improve) if people didn't complain. 
2. The streetcar experience you shared was unrelated to the discussion (and the whole blue line thread we're on here).  Different mode of transit. Presenting it the way you did came across as downplaying others' concerns. Particularly since you did it twice! "But it didn't happen to me" you said the second time. And...
3. Your "come on people, a bit of grace and patience" comment seemed to be doubling down on that.  It struck me as a fairly snotty response to this discussion which also seemed to be downplaying at least their responses, and possibly also their concerns. Particularly since you seem disconnected from the point of it being a problem specific to the blue line. And you don't know how they reacted as part of the crowd that night (possibly with more patience and grace than most!). This discussion board is a good place to share disappointment and discuss how we can hopefully provide feedback to CATS and hold them to a higher standard. 

If that wasn't your intent then cool.  

[RANYC]

54 minutes ago, slipperypete said:

CATS Blue Line (which is our highest ridership park & ride option) gave a poor experience to a lot of riders after the first two MLS home games. Agree?   That is not an assertion that anything is systematically flawed, and I certainly didn't say it was. The only reasonable transit option for many people to a big uptown event is blue line park & ride. The blue line specifically is stressed after events due to that park & ride volume. This is predictable, and pre-pandemic it seemed to be handled better. 

My point was: 

1. CATS should go back to providing more capacity before and after big uptown events. This is what I got from the other people sharing their poor experience, and I don't think it's a controversial point. Based the CATS twitter feed they agree and have said they'll do better. That's cool. They wouldn't have had a chance to improve (or at least to voice their plan to improve) if people didn't complain. 
2. The streetcar experience you shared was unrelated to the discussion (and the whole blue line thread we're on here).  Different mode of transit. Presenting it the way you did came across as downplaying others' concerns. Particularly since you did it twice! "But it didn't happen to me" you said the second time. And...
3. Your "come on people, a bit of grace and patience" comment seemed to be doubling down on that.  It struck me as a fairly snotty response to this discussion which also seemed to be downplaying at least their responses, and possibly also their concerns. Particularly since you seem disconnected from the point of it being a problem specific to the blue line. And you don't know how they reacted as part of the crowd that night (possibly with more patience and grace than most!). This discussion board is a good place to share disappointment and discuss how we can hopefully provide feedback to CATS and hold them to a higher standard. 

If that wasn't your intent then cool.  

Sorry that my comment sharing alternative positive experiences on CATS assets and asking that we show "grace and patience" to a transit system that, like so many others around the country, has been walloped, struck you as "snotty."

I only asked for grace and patience because another person who posted said they would not be riding it any further.  My "grace and patience" call was to give the transit system more chances because a transit system's ride back from a global pandemic is going to be an incredibly bumpy one. 

Again, sorry you took all that in as attacks.  I learned long ago to forgive, stay out of people's way, and to spend less than a nanosecond on their offenses.

Edited March 22, 2022 by RANYC

[JRCLT]

There is definitely a reason for things CATS obviously doesn’t want to look bad and have people not use their services as far as I can tell. That is why I mention transparency about issues and what CATS is doing to find a solution to those issues. I think it’s much more frustrating when people do not know anything at all so we can write it off as CATS just simply doesn’t care or doesn’t want to do anything because laziness or incompetence. When in reality those may not be the case. Everyone experiences rides differently. Personally I don’t mind the slower speeds on shorter runs or when I have time to spare when traveling. Others say to me the train is too slow. Why take one for 20 min when I can drive there 15-17 min and even that small difference is enough for some to change their mind.

[slipperypete]

15 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Sorry that my comment sharing alternative positive experiences on CATS assets and asking that we show "grace and patience" to a transit system that, like so many others around the country, has been walloped, struck you as "snotty."

I only asked for grace and patience because another person who posted said they would not be riding it any further.  My "grace and patience" call was to give the transit system another chance because a transit system's ride back from a global pandemic is going to be an incredibly bumpy one. 

Again, sorry you took all that in as attacks.  I learned long ago to forgive, stay out of people's way, and to spend less than a nanosecond on their offenses.

Attacks? I never said that. What on earth are you reading?  It's not what I've written.  Each time I said "came across as downplaying others' concerns." I don't feel attacked at all. Don't think the other poster did either.

They said they wouldn't ride the blue line to big events to avoid being stranded for a long time after.  Pretty reasonable response. But I guess your comment that a totally different transit mode on a different line works fine is helpful?  Ok then, thanks for your help!   I appreciate all this patience and grace you're modeling for us. And not spending a nanosecond on perceived offenses. It's been cool.  

[Durhamite]

43 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Sorry that my comment sharing alternative positive experiences on CATS assets and asking that we show "grace and patience" to a transit system that, like so many others around the country, has been walloped, struck you as "snotty."

I only asked for grace and patience because another person who posted said they would not be riding it any further.  My "grace and patience" call was to give the transit system more chances because a transit system's ride back from a global pandemic is going to be an incredibly bumpy one. 

Again, sorry you took all that in as attacks.  I learned long ago to forgive, stay out of people's way, and to spend less than a nanosecond on their offenses.

You are correct, the current state of things is not unique to CATS, it is a problem for all public transit systems in the US, even mature ones  like Denver that people on here seem to love.  Especially post pandemic (which isn’t resource or economically over by a long shot…it will take years).  Experiences will vary and expecting CATs to flip a switch back to the future is out of touch.  These are data driven operational and maintenance decisions.  And expediting the process could ultimately result in a worst situation.

[RANYC]

27 minutes ago, slipperypete said:

Attacks? I never said that. What on earth are you reading?  It's not what I've written.  Each time I said "came across as downplaying others' concerns." I don't feel attacked at all. Don't think the other poster did either.

They said they wouldn't ride the blue line to big events to avoid being stranded for a long time after.  Pretty reasonable response. But I guess your comment that a totally different transit mode on a different line works fine is helpful?  Ok then, thanks for your help!   I appreciate all this patience and grace you're modeling for us. And not spending a nanosecond on perceived offenses. It's been cool.  

 easy there, partner.  these are mere strings of font on a screen.  nothing to get riled up about.  let's spare everyone and end this here.  to the other poster, I hope you'll give CATS another chance and use a CATS asset someday to attend a future Charlotte event.  it's the most sustainable way for huge events to happen in center city, and if we can endure the bumpy recovery to more normalized frequencies, our city and region will be the better for it.

Edited March 22, 2022 by RANYC

[15895]

30 minutes ago, RANYC said:

 easy there, partner.  these are mere strings of font on a screen.  nothing to get riled up about.  let's spare everyone and end this here.  to the other poster, I hope you'll give CATS another chance and use a CATS asset someday to attend a future Charlotte event.  it's the most sustainable way for huge events to happen in center city, and if we can endure the bumpy recovery to more normalized frequencies, our city and region will be the better for it.

That's not "the most sustainable way", that is your opinion. Some would say your position is counterproductive to the long-term success of light rail and mass transit for the city and region.

The opposing viewpoint is the most sustainable way for huge events to happen in the center city is to to not have self-inflicted wounds or perceived lack of concern by the service levels or disruptions. Maybe CATS could have more regular updates on measures being taken to recover from the pandemic era issues. Maybe CATS could post extra postings on game days or have bus bridges, special express buses, etc. Maybe post a CATS employee at a couple of the busiest stations to pass out flyers on game days on what CATS is doing to recover form the pandemic. 

But if people perceive the Light Rail to being consistently crap - fairly or not - people aren't going to ride it and the boldened portion of your post will not occur...

When people on here criticize developments, developers, CATS, etc. It's not to be negative or unreasonable... it's just advocation for things important to them. In this case, the long-term success of light rail, CATS and how to rebound & recover from the pandemic. 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That's not "the most sustainable way", that is your opinion. Some would say your position is counterproductive to the long-term success of light rail and mass transit for the city and region.

The opposing viewpoint is the most sustainable way for huge events to happen in the center city is to to not have self-inflicted wounds or perceived lack of concern by the service levels or disruptions. Maybe CATS could have more regular updates on measures being taken to recover from the pandemic era issues. Maybe CATS could post extra postings on game days or have bus bridges, special express buses, etc. Maybe post a CATS employee at a couple of the busiest stations to pass out flyers on game days on what CATS is doing to recover form the pandemic. 

But if people perceive the Light Rail to being consistently crap - fairly or not - people aren't going to ride it and the boldened portion of your post will not occur...

When people on here criticize developments, developers, CATS, etc. It's not to be negative or unreasonable... it's just advocation for things important to them. In this case, the long-term success of light rail, CATS and how to rebound & recover from the pandemic. 

 

• The idea of light-rail/streetcar transit riding into Uptown for large gatherings as superior to everyone driving her/his car and parking, is indeed, my opinion.  Confused by your 2nd sentence though.
• I trust you have sent your great suggestions to CATS?  These are constructive, and superior to public-facing social media broadsides, IMO.  
• Blue Line ridership is picking up steam on weekdays with even packed trains I've observed, but yes, I'm sure there's a contingent who think it's "consistently crap." 
• I applaud your ideas for CATS on how to improve service delivery during this bumpy transition from global crisis, and trust that you won't be abandoning the Blue Line for all future Uptown mass gatherings?

Edited March 22, 2022 by RANYC

[JRCLT]

I have to say… Public transit isn’t just about convenience it’s also about comprising. You give up certain things because it is better for the environment and for yourself for that matter overall (Environmental health = your health and well-being). Now, if you didn’t like the experience, don’t ride it and frankly that’s your decision to make. I will say ridership and relevance which often go hand in hand are the main indicators for how a system like CATS will work. High relevance/High ridership = more attention. If people are not willing to even try and take it consistently then it won’t be a priority. You’re not doing anyone a favor or encouraging improvement by not using it. After all though it is your decision.

Sadly to say this is not a build it and they will come mentality right now. These past few years messed that up. I try to use it as much as I reasonably can I drive 10-12 min to a park and ride and then 59 min to UNC Charlotte then a 5-7 min walk to the building…each way. I’m comprising on time and giving up driving 32 mi as opposed to 3.3 mi. I can’t deny CATS performance isn’t great, but I’ve ridden on the weekends and weekdays at different times and if you plan accordingly it should fine. It also doesn’t take more than few minutes to plan.

Most of the time there is criticism I see no valid reasons to back up the criticism. Not everything is as simple as flipping a switch to fix a problem. If it were that easy the chances of those concerns being raised would be close to nothing if that were the case. Let’s remind ourselves CATS runs a budget and it has to pay for a lot of things and pay a lot of people. There logistics to raising frequency or hiring more operators. It’s not as simple as running more vehicles (what if CATS is required to have some spare or necessary for smooth operation and the only option is to buy more). Some say pay operators more (money doesn’t just fall from the sky it has to come from the budget which is often planned to be almost all expended as is). There is so much that goes into operations that people do not think about because you’re not supposed to, but at least acknowledge the ignorance that you may or may not have. There’s ALWAYS something you are not aware of and that is a fact.

[edited]

[Desert Power]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:09 PM, RANYC said:

I'm sorry for this person's experience this weekend, but I took the street car to uptown to attend Charlotte FC's inaugural game, and it worked swimmingly for me.  I've also taken the street car to the arena for a couple hornets games, and have had no issue.  I don't think I'd be so quick to write off light rail and streetcar for massive events just because things were slow last weekend.  

It isn't really a one off though. This has been a trait for games at BofA Stadium for years.  The To is fine, the Return is unpredictable. Real time tracking issues and low frequency exacerbates this.

I think it was steadily downhill after peaking near All Star Game Weekend. Need to run more trains for these events. Events create crowded transit in many places, but this just should be a bit better.

Glad to hear the Streetcar worked well for you! Mint Street stop is well located for the stadium.

[go_vertical]

8 hours ago, RANYC said:

My "grace and patience" call was to give the transit system more chances because a transit system's ride back from a global pandemic is going to be an incredibly bumpy one.

So what is the acceptable number of chances a paying rider should give CATS before they should begin the process of writing the whole thing off?  I'm not asking this to be a smart-ass, only to illustrate that you don't know the frequency of less than pleasurable experiences others have had.  Maybe they have exercised grace and patience before reaching this point. 

I don't work or live Uptown yet for years I have utilized the blue line on my days off to give my business and spend my money with businesses along it.  I regularly eat in South End, get my hair cut Uptown, and have on occasion stopped by Publix to grab a few items on the way back to my car parked at the Archdale station.  None of this is necessary.  It isn't as convenient as driving directly to places much closer in Southpark or Quail Corners, but it is certainly a more enjoyable experience..... at least that is what I would tell myself for a long time.  

I wanted to enjoy (ie: not being stuck behind the wheel of a car) and be part of the fabric of the city I love, but the honest reality is that using our light rail can (not always) be a real headache and as the management of it got worse over the years I found myself asking why I try and sadly I rarely hop on anymore.  Initially it was fine, but between increased headways, having no clue when the next train will arrive, random delays, the slowing of speeds, and the increased frequency of wierd/crazy folk harassing and annoying other riders the lustre and sheen begins to fade. 

Now, I completely understand these are all regular big city transit issues, but what really turned me away from the whole experiment was the same problem that has been discussed here.... special events.  My first sour taste was back in 2013 or 2014 when I was talked into heading Uptown for New Years. (Never, ever again) We responsibly took the train in but were forced to take a cab home because CATS didn't think it was necessary to extend service hours.  Hundreds, probably thousands, of angry people literally blocking cabs in the street because they couldn't get home.  Keep in mind Uber and Lyft were practically nonexistant back then so all of these people were fighting for the five cabs Charlotte has.  We left the bar a little after 12:30 but didn't get home until nearly 3.  Rinse and repeat this very experience a handful more times after various sporting events and its no wonder the customer base is stagnant.  An single experience like that can leave a bad taste in the mouth.  Repeat it a few times and you really start to wonder if CATS gives a $#! + about moving people around at all. 

So again, how many times do you feel one should utilize "grace and patience" before voicing their displeasure?  I, and I'm sure everyone else on here NOT giving CATS a rubber stamp of approval, gave it the benefit of the doubt for quite a while before throwing our hands up and saying "I'll give it another shot once they get their act together".  It's not like we all had one crap ride and said screw this.  We all want this to work but it clearly isn't for a growing number of people. 

[15895]

14 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I have to say… Public transit isn’t just about convenience it’s also about comprising. You give up certain things because it is better for the environment and for yourself for that matter overall (Environmental health = your health and well-being). Now, if you didn’t like the experience, don’t ride it and frankly that’s your decision to make. I will say ridership and relevance which often go hand in hand are the main indicators for how a system like CATS will work. High relevance/High ridership = more attention. If people are not willing to even try and take it consistently then it won’t be a priority. You’re not doing anyone a favor or encouraging improvement by not using it. After all though it is your decision.

Sadly to say this is not a build it and they will come mentality right now. These past few years messed that up. I try to use it as much as I reasonably can I drive 10-12 min to a park and ride and then 59 min to UNC Charlotte then a 5-7 min walk to the building…each way. I’m comprising on time and giving up driving 32 mi as opposed to 3.3 mi. I can’t deny CATS performance isn’t great, but I’ve ridden on the weekends and weekdays at different times and if you plan accordingly it should fine. It also doesn’t take more than few minutes to plan.

Most of the time there is criticism I see no valid reasons to back up the criticism. Not everything is as simple as flipping a switch to fix a problem. If it were that easy the chances of those concerns being raised would be close to nothing if that were the case. Let’s remind ourselves CATS runs a budget and it has to pay for a lot of things and pay a lot of people. There logistics to raising frequency or hiring more operators. It’s not as simple as running more vehicles (what if CATS is required to have some spare or necessary for smooth operation and the only option is to buy more). Some say pay operators more (money doesn’t just fall from the sky it has to come from the budget which is often planned to be almost all expended as is). There is so much that goes into operations that people do not think about because you’re not supposed to, but at least acknowledge the ignorance that you may or may not have. There’s ALWAYS something you are not aware of and that is a fact.

[edited]

 

You're absolutely wrong, IMO. You and the other poster don't get mass transit, in my opinion  (and you could say I don't, I just happen to really fundamentally disagree with this statement & attitude). There is such an incredibly low amount of people who would take mass transit for the sake of being better for the environment or to support CATS or urbanity, etc. 

Do you want to save money by not having a car and insurance? Do you want to drive to a park & ride to save money from monthly Parking Deck cost? Is parking too much of a hassle downtown or will you be moving around center city where parking becomes annoying? Will you be drinking alcohol? Do you want to skip traffic in uptown (gridlock traffic uptown is so annoying vs. taking the overs street mall to your Lynx stop). Do you live convenient to mass transit to take it? Is Mass transit reliable? Does your employer subsidize the cost of mass transit? Do you want to enjoy time out with your friends and the sense of socialness of using mass transit? Does mass transit get you to where you need?  Is mass transit reliable? THOSE are the issues in which people base their decision on to take Mass Transit.

Amenities and features such as live tracking matter a lot. Live tracking helps people plan and it's really nothing that CATS could just sit around and say "oh, have some grace - Covid" - Covid is not a valid excuse to not have live-time information if it's not already there (https://gis.wmata.com/metrotrain/index.html This is my life-saver in DC right now that there is issues with the trains and frequencies are much less than normal - i'd be furious without it). Reliability, information, etc. matter. If mass transit starts to become unreliable, the parking deck cost becomes worth it. Sitting in traffic becomes worth it. 

Your whole post I just couldn't disagree with something more. And I think the rah-rah Charlotte cheerleading post that feel this need to defend CATS is more harmful to CATS than activism, being proactive, innovative, good PR, etc.  rather than rah-rah Charlotte and people thinking  Reliability and getting you to where you need to go is a compromise in taking  Rapid Mass Transit...  

I'm pretty sure most of us aren't these aloof people who just don't understand or aren't aware of what goes on behind the scenes as being portrayed...

 

Edit: And FYI on you using Lynx to get to your Undergrad program at UNCC. I used to take light rail from Arrowood to CTC and transfer to the North Tryon bus (until Light Rail extension opened my last semester). You know a big benefit that made me choose to also spend maybe 20-30 more minutes on mass transit? (i) Students Ride free (ii) Not having to pay for parking on campus (iii) there were days there wasn't a single parking spot on campus. Getting to campus for a spot you paid $350 or $500 per semester or whatever for and not even being able to find a spot in the surface lots and being late to class over it is crazy. That made Lynx attractive despite not being as fast as a car... That is an example of debating on the value you get from a car vs. mass transit... Not the freakin' environment. I had to get to class! (disclaimer, I care a lot about the environment) 

Edited March 23, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

4 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

You're absolutely wrong, IMO. You and the other poster don't get mass transit, in my opinion  (and you could say I don't, I just happen to really fundamentally disagree with this statement & attitude). There is such an incredibly low amount of people who would take mass transit for the sake of being better for the environment or to support CATS or urbanity, etc. 

Do you want to save money by not having a car and insurance? Do you want to drive to a park & ride to save money from monthly Parking Deck cost? Is parking too much of a hassle downtown or will you be moving around center city where parking becomes annoying? Will you be drinking alcohol? Do you want to skip traffic in uptown (gridlock traffic uptown is so annoying vs. taking the overs street mall to your Lynx stop). Do you live convenient to mass transit to take it? Is Mass transit reliable? Does your employer subsidize the cost of mass transit? Do you want to enjoy time out with your friends and the sense of socialness of using mass transit? Does mass transit get you to where you need?  Is mass transit reliable? THOSE are the issues in which people base their decision on to take Mass Transit.

Amenities and features such as live tracking matter a lot. Live tracking helps people plan and it's really nothing that CATS could just sit around and say "oh, have some grace - Covid" - Covid is not a valid excuse to not have live-time information if it's not already there (https://gis.wmata.com/metrotrain/index.html This is my life-saver in DC right now that there is issues with the trains and frequencies are much less than normal - i'd be furious without it). Reliability, information, etc. matter. If mass transit starts to become unreliable, the parking deck cost becomes worth it. Sitting in traffic becomes worth it. 

Your whole post I just couldn't disagree with something more. And I think the rah-rah Charlotte cheerleading post that feel this need to defend CATS is more harmful to CATS than activism, being proactive, innovative, good PR, etc.  rather than rah-rah Charlotte and people thinking  Reliability and getting you to where you need to go is a compromise in taking  Rapid Mass Transit...  

I'm pretty sure most of us aren't these aloof people who just don't understand or aren't aware of what goes on behind the scenes as being portrayed...

 

Edit: And FYI on you using Lynx to get to your Undergrad program at UNCC. I used to take light rail from Arrowood to CTC and transfer to the North Tryon bus (until Light Rail extension opened my last semester). You know a big benefit that made me choose to also spend maybe 20-30 more minutes on mass transit? (i) Students Ride free (ii) Not having to pay for parking on campus (iii) there were days there wasn't a single parking spot on campus. Getting to campus for a spot you paid $350 or $500 per semester or whatever for and not even being able to find a spot in the surface lots and being late to class over it is crazy. That made Lynx attractive despite not being as fast as a car... That is an example of debating on the value you get from a car vs. mass transit... Not the freakin' environment. I had to get to class! (disclaimer, I care a lot about the environment) 

No one is dismissing practical considerations of taking transit.  There is, however, a spectrum of ridership.  Those who must take transit, be it bus or streetcar or rail, and those who have options and need incentives and other accoutrements like employer subsidies (outside of flex spending).  

I believe JeanCLT was giving the perspective that "good citizenship" is a factor in ridership, probably for those on the ridership spectrum with options.  Not sure why the need for strident language like "you're absolutely wrong."  Just his point of view, and if he rides for the reason he stated, then it's a valid POV.  Might not be the predominant POV among choice riders, but so what.

I love how "grace" has become a trigger word for mockery.   You'd think I'd used profanity.  By the way, the term "grace" was used in response to someone saying he'd never ride light rail again because of 2 Charlotte FC match experiences, a brand new pro-sports league operating in Uptown on the heels of a global pandemic.  I was proposing he not write it off so quickly.  Appears to have set you off. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by RANYC

[JRCLT]

 
You're absolutely wrong, IMO. You and the other poster don't get mass transit, in my opinion  (and you could say I don't, I just happen to really fundamentally disagree with this statement & attitude). There is such an incredibly low amount of people who would take mass transit for the sake of being better for the environment or to support CATS or urbanity, etc. 
Do you want to save money by not having a car and insurance? Do you want to drive to a park & ride to save money from monthly Parking Deck cost? Is parking too much of a hassle downtown or will you be moving around center city where parking becomes annoying? Will you be drinking alcohol? Do you want to skip traffic in uptown (gridlock traffic uptown is so annoying vs. taking the overs street mall to your Lynx stop). Do you live convenient to mass transit to take it? Is Mass transit reliable? Does your employer subsidize the cost of mass transit? Do you want to enjoy time out with your friends and the sense of socialness of using mass transit? Does mass transit get you to where you need?  Is mass transit reliable? THOSE are the issues in which people base their decision on to take Mass Transit.
Amenities and features such as live tracking matter a lot. Live tracking helps people plan and it's really nothing that CATS could just sit around and say "oh, have some grace - Covid" - Covid is not a valid excuse to not have live-time information if it's not already there (https://gis.wmata.com/metrotrain/index.html This is my life-saver in DC right now that there is issues with the trains and frequencies are much less than normal - i'd be furious without it). Reliability, information, etc. matter. If mass transit starts to become unreliable, the parking deck cost becomes worth it. Sitting in traffic becomes worth it. 
Your whole post I just couldn't disagree with something more. And I think the rah-rah Charlotte cheerleading post that feel this need to defend CATS is more harmful to CATS than activism, being proactive, innovative, good PR, etc.  rather than rah-rah Charlotte and people thinking  Reliability and getting you to where you need to go is a compromise in taking  Rapid Mass Transit...  
I'm pretty sure most of us aren't these aloof people who just don't understand or aren't aware of what goes on behind the scenes as being portrayed...
 
Edit: And FYI on you using Lynx to get to your Undergrad program at UNCC. I used to take light rail from Arrowood to CTC and transfer to the North Tryon bus (until Light Rail extension opened my last semester). You know a big benefit that made me choose to also spend maybe 20-30 more minutes on mass transit? (i) Students Ride free (ii) Not having to pay for parking on campus (iii) there were days there wasn't a single parking spot on campus. Getting to campus for a spot you paid $350 or $500 per semester or whatever for and not even being able to find a spot in the surface lots and being late to class over it is crazy. That made Lynx attractive despite not being as fast as a car... That is an example of debating on the value you get from a car vs. mass transit... Not the freakin' environment. I had to get to class! (disclaimer, I care a lot about the environment) 

Like I said I’m not saying that it’s perfect I’m saying you’re barking up the wrong tree when it comes to getting improvement.

[RANYC]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:17 AM, go_vertical said:

So what is the acceptable number of chances a paying rider should give CATS before they should begin the process of writing the whole thing off?  I'm not asking this to be a smart-ass, only to illustrate that you don't know the frequency of less than pleasurable experiences others have had.  Maybe they have exercised grace and patience before reaching this point. 

I don't work or live Uptown yet for years I have utilized the blue line on my days off to give my business and spend my money with businesses along it.  I regularly eat in South End, get my hair cut Uptown, and have on occasion stopped by Publix to grab a few items on the way back to my car parked at the Archdale station.  None of this is necessary.  It isn't as convenient as driving directly to places much closer in Southpark or Quail Corners, but it is certainly a more enjoyable experience..... at least that is what I would tell myself for a long time.  

I wanted to enjoy (ie: not being stuck behind the wheel of a car) and be part of the fabric of the city I love, but the honest reality is that using our light rail can (not always) be a real headache and as the management of it got worse over the years I found myself asking why I try and sadly I rarely hop on anymore.  Initially it was fine, but between increased headways, having no clue when the next train will arrive, random delays, the slowing of speeds, and the increased frequency of wierd/crazy folk harassing and annoying other riders the lustre and sheen begins to fade. 

Now, I completely understand these are all regular big city transit issues, but what really turned me away from the whole experiment was the same problem that has been discussed here.... special events.  My first sour taste was back in 2013 or 2014 when I was talked into heading Uptown for New Years. (Never, ever again) We responsibly took the train in but were forced to take a cab home because CATS didn't think it was necessary to extend service hours.  Hundreds, probably thousands, of angry people literally blocking cabs in the street because they couldn't get home.  Keep in mind Uber and Lyft were practically nonexistant back then so all of these people were fighting for the five cabs Charlotte has.  We left the bar a little after 12:30 but didn't get home until nearly 3.  Rinse and repeat this very experience a handful more times after various sporting events and its no wonder the customer base is stagnant.  An single experience like that can leave a bad taste in the mouth.  Repeat it a few times and you really start to wonder if CATS gives a $#! + about moving people around at all. 

So again, how many times do you feel one should utilize "grace and patience" before voicing their displeasure?  I, and I'm sure everyone else on here NOT giving CATS a rubber stamp of approval, gave it the benefit of the doubt for quite a while before throwing our hands up and saying "I'll give it another shot once they get their act together".  It's not like we all had one crap ride and said screw this.  We all want this to work but it clearly isn't for a growing number of people. 

I had quite a number of horrific experiences and encounters on the subway during the 14 years I lived in Manhattan.  In addition to delayed trains, I also was on a train that broke down and stopped moving underground.  Experienced a guy defecating in the corner of the car.  On and on.  New Yorkers can regale you with tales for days.  I think the difference is that those horrific experiences, while likely larger in number than the horrors experienced on a CATS asset, were still a tiny percentage of the total number of experiences I had on NYC subways.  Why?  Because I was largely dependent on the subway.  Had no other way around.  And on most days, NY subways did just fine for what I required.  No matter how bad the defecation experience was and how often it happened, I was in no position to write the system off.  I needed the system, the entire city needed it, its economy needed it, and its ability to be one of the most visited and toured places in the world needed the system.  Writing it off was never an option.  

Only option was engagement, either direct or indirect.  Enough voices rising in unison in a show of solidarity to both transit officials and politicians of the range of needs that the system needed to meet and how it might meet those needs more effectively.  Process wasn't necessarily quick, and there are always problems outstanding, but we kept it working.  Walking away from CATS Blue Line is unfortunate.  Sad to see you go.  From what I'm seeing in the past couple weeks, however, there are plenty to take your place.

[gman430]

I’ve ridden the light rail to Panthers games more than once and I loved it. Didn’t have to wait on the train long and was able to get on it right away. Much better, nicer, and smoother of a ride than MARTA in Atlanta also. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by gman430

[Hushpuppy321]

I’m glad that CATS is going to begin running the Lightrail at 15 minute intervals.  That said - last weekend the extra trains that were run prior to the Games (Soccer/Basketball) were impressive.  The after Game Rush & Lightrail service was pretty bad.  Hopefully things will get better.  One of my suggestions (this is after being stuck on a Crush Capacity Train) is for the Train to not stop/skip stations when it’s already overloaded and then arriving at a packed station.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by Hushpuppy321

[go_vertical]

7 hours ago, RANYC said:

I had quite a number of horrific experiences and encounters on the subway during the 14 years I lived in Manhattan.  In addition to delayed trains, I also was on a train that broke down and stopped moving underground.  Experienced a guy defecating in the corner of the car.  On and on.  New Yorkers can regale you with tales for days.  I think the difference is that those horrific experiences, while likely larger in number than the horrors experienced on a CATS asset, were still a tiny percentage of the total number of experiences I had on NYC subways.  Why?  Because I was largely dependent on the subway.  Had no other way around.  And on most days, NY subways did just fine for what I required.  No matter how bad the defecation experience was and how often it happened, I was in no position to write the system off.  I needed the system, the entire city needed it, its economy needed it, and its ability to be one of the most visited and toured places in the world needed the system.  Writing it off was never an option.  

Only option was engagement, either direct or indirect.  Enough voices rising in unison in a show of solidarity to both transit officials and politicians of the range of needs that the system needed to meet and how it might meet those needs more effectively.  Process wasn't necessarily quick, and there are always problems outstanding, but we kept it working.  Walking away from CATS Blue Line is unfortunate.  Sad to see you go.  From what I'm seeing in the past couple weeks, however, there are plenty to take your place.

Comparing the two is pretty disengenuous and you know that.  One is one of largest (certainly the most stations by far) systems in the world, absolutely necessary for the city to operate, and arguably the life-blood of the region while the other one is a straight line (I barely count the gold like at the moment) in its infancy in a city where an overwhelmingly large portion of the population or businesses don't live within walking distance of a station.  One is heavy rail that moves much faster with more frequency while the other crawls past traffic and gets interrupted nearly weekly because some idiot in a 3 series can't tell the difference between steel tracks and asphalt.  One is in a city that literally grew up around and with it while the other has been squeezed into a car-centric southern city that is trying to navigate through breaking its automobile addiction.  One is so integrated into the city that it's use is a complete afterthought while the other is literally an extra unnecessary step for a sizeable portion of its potential users. 

Transit in NY is baked into life.  So many people don't even own vehicles there because it isn't even a problem you devote brain cells to up there.  This is why the MTA has the luxury of allowing some of the minor problems to linger, because people will still have to use it even with someone shooting up or dropping a deuce in the corner.  It sucks that those things happen but that's just life in the city.  Could you imagine how much ridership would plummet if we had even a quarter of the crime at our stations here?

Now, here in Charlotte a very small percentage of the residents could say they NEED our system.  Nearly everyone owns a car and parking is abundant, albeit at a steadily increasing price in some areas.  Traffic, while pretty rough in places, is still not as horrible as many other large cities. It isn't even comparable to Atlanta and I moved here from Orlando over ten years ago and I still don't think traffic here today is as bad as it was there a decade ago. What we have here is a (an increasingly less shiny and new) option or dare I say toy to try out for most people. 

Because of all of this CATS and the city should be doing everything they can to improve our system and not let it stagnate in so many areas.  Hell, some promised aspects of it still haven't been delivered after fifteen years (vehicle tracking).  They have a real uphill battle before them and to be frank the finicky nature of the populace absolutely should not be a surprise to them.  Anybody that is offered a new product will try it out.  If that product doesn't impress them and they don't need it then they will go back to what they had before.  That's the free market baby.