The Greensboro Triumph Center

[JerseyBoy]

150,000 square feet is good amount of office space, but it isn't a lot. That amount of square feet only equals about six or seven floors on the new Wachovia Tower in Winston. Your typical suburban office building is about 200-300,000 square feet. My guess is that this space is speculative. Also, why does it have to be Disney? When I think of Disney I think of fun filled entertainment for the whole family, but also cheap tacky buildings and expensive prices and I don't want Greensboro to end up making their downtown area one big theme park.

[cityboi]

150,000 square feet is good amount of office space, but it isn't a lot. That amount of square feet only equals about six or seven floors on the new Wachovia Tower in Winston. Your typical suburban office building is about 200-300,000 square feet. My guess is that this space is speculative. Also, why does it have to be Disney? When I think of Disney I think of fun filled entertainment for the whole family, but also cheap tacky buildings and expensive prices and I don't want Greensboro to end up making their downtown area one big theme park.

I think 150,000 square feet can be tall or short. It just depends on the size of the foot print. The project calls for an additional 18-story tower. Now that could be the residential portion, I dont know but you can go taller than 7 or 8 stories with that square footage. The proposed Carolina Bank headquarters is nowehere near that in square footage, its about 40,000 sq ft and it will be 4 stories. So technically a 150,000 sq ft building could be as tall as 15 or 18 stories or about the height of the Guilford Building. As a matter of fact the 15-story Guilford Building has 8,000 feet on each floor which equals to 120,000 sq ft. and we are talking about 150,000 square feet in the mystery project. based on the footprint of the Guilford Building, 18 stories sounds just about right for a 150,000 square foot building.

The 120,000 square foot Guilford Building

I guess when I say Disney-like I dont mean the tacky cartoon like architecture but the kind of thempark entertainment. based on a source, Greensboro can go with different themes in this development so its obviously a "themed" destination.

Another interesting thing about this project is that the convetion center would include a shopping court. Its possible we could see stores in this like The Gap and other chain retailer you typically see in malls. I certainly wouldnt rule it out considering the kind of development we are dealing with here and if the largest plan is built, which would easily exceed $300 million, just maybe that shopping court might be a bit more than a court. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. As far as restaurants I think downtown lacks one kind of restaurant and that a barbeque restaurant. I know Stamey's is downtown the road but it would be nice to have one downtown where you could also get baby back ribs. Barbeque is one of North Carolina's signature dishes and downtown wouldnt be complete without a barbeque restaurant. Unlike Stamey's, one downtown could be a little more upscale.

[JerseyBoy]

The developer can hype up this project as much as he wants as far as retail is concerned, but until Greensboro has above 12,000 residents living in downtown proper it is NOT repeat NOT going to get name brand chain retail stores unless he brings new luxury stores that currently don't exist in the Triad. And, even in that scenario no luxury retailers are going to commit to downtown when you have Friendly a hop, skip, and a jump away and also Four Seasons a few miles away.

[cityboi]

The developer can hype up this project as much as he wants as far as retail is concerned, but until Greensboro has above 12,000 residents living in downtown proper it is NOT repeat NOT going to get name brand chain retail stores unless he brings new luxury stores that currently don't exist in the Triad. And, even in that scenario no luxury retailers are going to commit to downtown when you have Friendly a hop, skip, and a jump away and also Four Seasons a few miles away.

maybe this project would have stores Friendly doesnt have. Also remember, the developer isnt just going to go by population within downtown but probablly a 2 or 3 mile radius. Besides, the other venues in this could be big enough of a draw to make it feasible for major retail and attract people from further to come shop the way east Greensboro residents drive all the way on the otherside of town just to shop at West Wendover Ave. It was said by someone "in the know" about this that part of it could (not necessarily will) be a larger version of Peabody Place in Memphis. Im assuming thats if the largest version of this project is built. Well folks here is the shopping area in Peabody Place entertainment complex just so you can get an idea how big this project CAN get. I guess you can understand why the developers want 3 blocks of real estate in downtown Greensboro.

These are some of the stores in Peabody Place in downtown Memphis.

Ann Taylor Loft

COCO & LILLY

Diversity T's

FootLocker

GAP / GAP Kids / Baby GAP

H2Oasis

Victoria's Secret

[krazeeboi]

As for the 150,000 plus square feet of office space, There is obviously a big company looking to move their offices downtown. Its hard to picture that amount of office space being multi-tenant with alot of small companies when there are still pockets of office space vacant in some of the existing newer and older towers as well as lowrise buildings thoughout downtown. This has to be a big company looking for alot of space which isnt available in other downtown office buildings. So we just might see multiple big surprises in this development.

I'd say it could be a tenant with a sizable presence, but not necessarily big. In just about every case that I'm aware of, anchor tenants don't take up all of the space in the buildings they're located in. Such a tenant could only be occupying about half the square footage and have the other half leased out.

[JerseyBoy]

Peabody Place is mostly a restaurant destination with a few stores thrown in. The reason why Peabody was successful was because downtown Memphis had Beale Street, the FedEx Forum, AutoZone Park, and an amazing nightlife scene. Greensboro has the ballpark and the nightlife (sortof) but it's not a national destination like Memphis was which was basically why Peabody was created and thrived. The only true chain retail stores in that development were Claire's, Ann Taylor, the Gap collection, FootLocker, and Victoria's Secret (not a wide variety if you ask me). If you're drawing from a 2 or 3 mile radius you're entering Four Seasons and Friendly territory where almost every mid-scale national known chain is represented. Those types of stores are not going to open up another location in downtown because it would unprofitable and would saturate the area.

[cityboi]

Peabody Place is mostly a restaurant destination with a few stores thrown in. The reason why Peabody was successful was because downtown Memphis had Beale Street, the FedEx Forum, AutoZone Park, and an amazing nightlife scene. Greensboro has the ballpark and the nightlife (sortof) but it's not a national destination like Memphis was which was basically why Peabody was created and thrived. The only true chain retail stores in that development were Claire's, Ann Taylor, the Gap collection, FootLocker, and Victoria's Secret (not a wide variety if you ask me). If you're drawing from a 2 or 3 mile radius you're entering Four Seasons and Friendly territory where almost every mid-scale national known chain is represented. Those types of stores are not going to open up another location in downtown because it would unprofitable and would saturate the area.

like Ray Gibbs said...the entertainment venues in this project are "pretty significant" so its possible those venues could big enough of a draw to have something like Peabody Place. Also dont forget, downtown Greensboro nightlife scene is more than just the ballpark. Go downtown on Elm Street, especially Thursday, Friday and Saturday after midnight and you'll see what I mean. As for the stores there are some chains stores that Friendly and Four Seasons dont have. Bottom line, if the developers are considering something like this, youd better believe they have a good reason to do it. I mean when you think about it, a 20 story 500 room, 4-star luxury hotel doesnt sound feasible either considering hotels have done poorly downtown. The key is the entertainment venues which is really what makes it feasible for the hotel and retail. Its the combination of everything in this project that makes it work

[JerseyBoy]

like Ray Gibbs said...the entertainment venues in this project are "pretty significant" so its possible those venues could big enough of a draw to have something like Peabody Place. Also dont forget, downtown Greensboro nightlife scene is more than just the ballpark. Go downtown on Elm Street, especially Thursday, Friday and Saturday after midnight and you'll see what I mean. As for the stores there are some chains stores that Friendly and Four Seasons dont have. Bottom line, if the developers are considering something like this, youd better believe they have a good reason to do it. I mean when you think about it, a 20 story 500 room, 4-star luxury hotel doesnt sound feasible either considering hotels have done poorly downtown. The key is the entertainment venues which is really what makes it feasible for the hotel and retail. Its the combination of everything in this project that makes it work

In my post I recognized the ballpark and the nightlife, I didn't mean them as one thing. Yes, there are some chains that Friendly and Four Seasons do not have, but like I've said no retail stores are going to locate downtown unless there is a substantial population (12,000+) to support them which Greensboro doesn't have yet. It sounds like they're trying to take everything imaginable and put it into this project. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they better know what they're doing is all I'm going to say.

[cityboi]

In my post I recognized the ballpark and the nightlife, I didn't mean them as one thing. Yes, there are some chains that Friendly and Four Seasons do not have, but like I've said no retail stores are going to locate downtown unless there is a substantial population (12,000+) to support them which Greensboro doesn't have yet. It sounds like they're trying to take everything imaginable and put it into this project. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they better know what they're doing is all I'm going to say.

im sure the developers know what they are doing. This isnt Joe Shmo developer. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of feasibilty studies were done for this project and international investors are involved. They certainly arent going to risk millions on a project that would likely fail. I also heard that more investors are climbing on board to build this thing. I will say this. It doesnt take nowhere near hundreds of thousands of dollars just to do feasibily studies for a hotel and convention center. Its all in the entertainment venues.

you bring up 12,000 people. In a one mile radius of downtown Greensboro, there are that many or more which is one reason why its been rumored that a supermarket could be a part of this project.

[suburban george3]

I see this thread is getting dangerously close to repeating it's 'old habits.'

[cityboi]

I see this thread is getting dangerously close to repeating it's 'old habits.'

LOL you mean getting dangerously close to being just about like all the other threads on this forum? You should see the coffee house but I was right about alot of things in terms of the concept. Particularly about the bowling alley, IMAX and scope of this project Im psyhcic. Like miss Cleo says CALL ME NOW!

[twincity]

well the last article says that all of this is still very preliminary, so dont get too cocky...LOL.

but i will have to agree that there could be enough support for such retail. the reason: student population. UNCG and NCA&T makes up ~30,000.

[cityboi]

well the last article says that all of this is still very preliminary, so dont get too cocky...LOL.

but i will have to agree that there could be enough support for such retail. the reason: student population. UNCG and NCA&T makes up ~30,000.

lol I am definately aware none of this is a done deal. I was just sayin I was right about the concept.

you are correct TwinCity. with the combination of college students, residents and tourists/convention goers, retail is possible.

[Creasy336]

well the last article says that all of this is still very preliminary, so dont get too cocky...LOL.

but i will have to agree that there could be enough support for such retail. the reason: student population. UNCG and NCA&T makes up ~30,000.

I agree NC A&T, UNCG, Bennett, and Greensboro College are all adjacent to downtown. With some pedestrian improvements and added service on "HEAT", Greensboro's Transit for the local colleges. I can see most developments downtown being successful. OFF TOPIC but what a great time for commuter rail with stops at WSSU, Guilford College Road (Guilford College), UNCG, NCAT, and Elon letting everyone ride the train to downtown Greensboro using their university discounted rail passes ...one day i guess

[cityboi]

I agree NC A&T, UNCG, Bennett, and Greensboro College are all adjacent to downtown. With some pedestrian improvements and added service on "HEAT", Greensboro's Transit for the local colleges. I can see most developments downtown being successful. OFF TOPIC but what a great time for commuter rail with stops at WSSU, Guilford College Road (Guilford College), UNCG, NCAT, and Elon letting everyone ride the train to downtown Greensboro using their university discounted rail passes ...one day i guess

Think about this. The land that has been said the developers are looking at are adjacent to the railroad tracks on the eastside of downtown. what a great place to put a commuter rail stop, right in the convention/hotel!

[coastalmindset]

I love all the speculation. Lots of good ideas are floating around out there but the fact remains that this deal is no where near getting a green light. What did they say in the last article? 30 days until a decision had to be made?

[cityboi]

I love all the speculation. Lots of good ideas are floating around out there but the fact remains that this deal is no where near getting a green light. What did they say in the last article? 30 days until a decision had to be made?

yea everyone is aware its not a done deal Tust me. there are some issues that im aware of that need to be resolved before this thing happens

[kmurphy19662003]

I will officially go on record right now and say that this project will not happen. Uncertainty in today's credit market will be the main culprit. I also think these small news leaks are a contrived attempt to excite public officials into hinting what kind of public money might be available. Bull crap tactics if you ask me.

[cityboi]

if and when this happens I will hold you to what you have said. I think it will happen. Its just a matter of what size it will be. If problems are encountered, they will go with the small version. The main probem has to do with land issues and there is a site they CAN secure at a reasonable cost for the small version but I think they are shooting for the largest version which means they will encounter problems with land. I think I have a little bit more inside information than you guys so I kinda know whats going on and the hurdles that have to be cleared before this project moves forward. We are not even sure how much is expected from the city. What I have been hearing is that the city is expected to build a parking deck and other infrastruction improvements which are typical for private development in the city. Id like to know how much the city of Charlotte put towards the EpiCentre there (similar project) and we can get an idea of what to expect.

[cityboi]

The parking lot in the photo (all the way to the left behind governors court where the shadow is) is one of the tracts, which combined with two other tracts that are larger than this would create a three block development. (if the larger plan is built) Governor's Court condos is right next to this property.

I predicted early on that this parking lot could be a part of the project and I was right

here is the Weaver Property in the foreground and Lincoln Finanacial and city property in the background across the street. These tracts of land would be combined with the parking lot in the photo above. The entertainment complex would be on the land in the forground. The office/residential would be in the background to the right where the one story greyish building is and to the left of that the hotel and convention center. Its unknown what would be built on the parking lot tract of land (the first photo). But apparently everything hasnt been revealed about this project and can be built even larger than what the latest News & Record article revealed.

This building use to be the old trolley barn when Greensboro use to have streetcars. amazingly its still standing today. If a House of Blues were a part of this, it would make since to renovate that building and make it part of the House of Blues. Ironically its located on the tract where the entertainment complex is going so they just might do that.

and here is the overview

[cityboi]

This project is still moving forward. Sheri Adams, interim president of Downtown Greensboro Inc, sorta mentioned this project being in the works during city council meeting this past tuesday. I guess we have to continue to be patient. Ray Gibbs did say there was alot to do

[coastalmindset]

Well I figured I'd post the latest news on the Triumph Project:

Mystery Developer Revealed

http://www.digtriad.com/news/local_state/a...11&catid=57

Sounds more and more like this project has a L-O-N-G way to go if it is ever to become a reality.

[cityboi]

Well I figured I'd post the latest news on the Triumph Project:

Mystery Developer Revealed

http://www.digtriad.com/news/local_state/a...11&catid=57

Sounds more and more like this project has a L-O-N-G way to go if it is ever to become a reality.

"There is a conditional letter of credit for $300 million; I've seen the letter," Gibbs says. "It is a national financial organization. That's all I can say. But Isaac is continuing to meet with financial backers. He is nearing contracts on two pieces of land."

"Look, this is an iffy project, no question about it. Anything this big runs huge risks. But he's not making this stuff up. It's not a hoax."

"Gibbs says that he remains impressed with Cain's vision, his determination and his ability to connect with financial backers (still unnamed) from Wall Street to the West Coast."

Isaac has a credit of $300 million and is close to getting land secured

"The mayor says he's not bothered by his lack of knowledge of Cain's background or experience, adding, "Based on the locations I've seen, based on the expectations of who would patronize the project, I think it has a better-than-average chance of success, if it's completed and comes in with enough capital."

ummmm....kinda makes you wonder why some in the community are questioning Cain's credibilty despite his financial connections to make a project like this happen. some leaders almost seemed angry...ummm. he seem to be falling under more scrutny than most developers.

[coastalmindset]

Isaac has a credit of $300 million and is close to getting land secured

I've seen lots of developers "close" to securing land who never closed the deal. It's a common ocurance. Not to mention with property owners like the Weaver Foundation and Lincoln Financial they are going to want to see some hard facts on this project before they even consider selling their land.

It's a little difficult to put a project of this size together if you don't do some basic homework:

Melivn said, "Cain has no economic feasibility studies, seemed unfamiliar with the city's demographics, doesn't seem to know the extent of the environmental problems posed by the properties he's targeted and declined to reveal the sources of his financial backing".

So Cain has some experience buying and selling real estate and a great idea.

Melvin, Perkins and to an extent Gibbs, who all have development and commercial real estate experience, say the project has little to no credibility at this point in time. Sounds like it has a LONG way to go...

While I'd like to share in your optimism I think the facts have to be taken into account.

[cityboi]

Isaac has a credit of $300 million and is close to getting land secured

I've seen lots of developers "close" to securing land who never closed the deal. It's a common ocurance. Not to mention with property owners like the Weaver Foundation and Lincoln Financial they are going to want to see some hard facts on this project before they even consider selling their land.

It's a little difficult to put a project of this size together if you don't do some basic homework:

Melivn said, "Cain has no economic feasibility studies, seemed unfamiliar with the city's demographics, doesn't seem to know the extent of the environmental problems posed by the properties he's targeted and declined to reveal the sources of his financial backing".

So Cain has some experience buying and selling real estate and a great idea.

Melvin, Perkins and to an extent Gibbs, who all have development and commercial real estate experience, say the project has little to no credibility at this point in time. Sounds like it has a LONG way to go...

While I'd like to share in your optimism I think the facts have to be taken into account.

well we will see what happens