Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[joeDowntown]

8 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Whoa, the situation is actually worse than I thought. 

The city really needs to come up with a plan that involves breaking ground on a new ramp, in the core, this year. Companies may hold on if they see something being built, but it's getting to the point where you almost don't know what to do. 

I know there were some complications with building a ramp behind the Arena (because of the way the Arena was financed), but that seems like an ideal spot. Personally, I wouldn't attach it to the Arena like they proposed. Make people get out and walk (I'd hate to see people downtown to an event and never never interact with the city itself). Include retail on the first floor and build a huge ramp. The city needs to get off their ass. They also need to realize people want to drive downtown. 

Lets get it done already. 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

7 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

The city really needs to come up with a plan that involves breaking ground on a new ramp, in the core, this year. Companies may hold on if they see something being built, but it's getting to the point where you almost don't know what to do. 

I know there were some complications with building a ramp behind the Arena (because of the way the Arena was financed), but that seems like an ideal spot. Personally, I wouldn't attach it to the Arena like they proposed. Make people get out and walk (I'd hate to see people downtown to an event and never never interact with the city itself). Include retail on the first floor and build a huge ramp. The city needs to get off their ass. They also need to realize people want to drive downtown. 

Lets get it done already. 

Joe

The article does mention that the problem is going to get slightly worse when the movie theater project starts, but they neglect to mention that the Lyon and Ottawa Ellis lot is going to be gone soon and won't be replaced by parking for a couple of years, and the Hinman lot will be gone soon (we assume). There goes a couple hundred more spots. 

[WWhyte24]

Hi! Long time lurker, but I thought I'd post for once since I consider this a very interesting subject. 

Parking will always be an issue. Let's say, for example, they build 3 new parking ramps with ground floor retail and maybe apartments or offices above. At this rate, those spots will fill up within a year and then we will be back to a parking crisis. Have you ever heard of the Katy Freeway in Houston? At it's widest, it's 26 lanes. This has been due to increased traffic along the freeway causing the Department of Transportation to just add additional lanes multiple times. However, it is common knowledge that if you build it, they will come, and this is the same for parking. It will never be satisfied. We will never solve this issue of parking, so the city is looking at it from a different perspective. 

Businesses will come and go. Perhaps we lose business downtown, but businesses will eventually fill their place and will most likely be in tune to what Downtown Grand Rapids has going on. When businesses threaten to leave the suburbs, I laugh, because there is literally the entire rest of the city to move your business to and yet to them it's either downtown or the suburbs. There is nothing wrong with relocating your business to another part of the city that has more parking amenities. There is also nothing wrong with Downtown Grand Rapids becoming less and less of a Central Business District. Yet, the biggest names in downtown business are staying put. In the meantime, the city has made the silver line FREE downtown, additional to it's free downtown shuttle system. You can get from almost anywhere in the city to downtown by transit and bike lanes are also being implemented on a project-by-project basis. Not all businesses will like this, but you can't shape your city around pleasing the entire private sector. 

Instead, I want more BRTs. I want them all over the city. And I want to leave my car at home. 

[joeDowntown]

I'm not talking about building ramp after ramp after ramp, but what I'm saying is that any vision of mass transit, biking, changing people's patterns is a long-term (15-20 year) fix. Yes, it should be done (wisely) but I feel like the city has basically taken a stance of bikes/bus only policy for growth. It's extremely frustrating that our city seems to think it's something we're not.

Love it or hate it, near-long term, we're still a automobile reliant city. And that requires people to have a place to park. I'd be pissed if I were a developer dumping millions into developments and renovations that could lure good tenants to their buildings, only to lose out to no available parking. I can understand that some companies do not want to incur the cost / hassle of parking downtown so they stay in the burbs. It's a different story when a company wants to move (or stay) downtown but they literally can't find suitable parking for their employees. 

I hope publications and businesses keep hammering the city on this. Maybe they will finally realize they're about 2-3 years behind. 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, WWhyte24 said:

Hi! Long time lurker, but I thought I'd post for once since I consider this a very interesting subject. 

Parking will always be an issue. Let's say, for example, they build 3 new parking ramps with ground floor retail and maybe apartments or offices above. At this rate, those spots will fill up within a year and then we will be back to a parking crisis. Have you ever heard of the Katy Freeway in Houston? At it's widest, it's 26 lanes. This has been due to increased traffic along the freeway causing the Department of Transportation to just add additional lanes multiple times. However, it is common knowledge that if you build it, they will come, and this is the same for parking. It will never be satisfied. We will never solve this issue of parking, so the city is looking at it from a different perspective. 

Businesses will come and go. Perhaps we lose business downtown, but businesses will eventually fill their place and will most likely be in tune to what Downtown Grand Rapids has going on. When businesses threaten to leave the suburbs, I laugh, because there is literally the entire rest of the city to move your business to and yet to them it's either downtown or the suburbs. There is nothing wrong with relocating your business to another part of the city that has more parking amenities. There is also nothing wrong with Downtown Grand Rapids becoming less and less of a Central Business District. Yet, the biggest names in downtown business are staying put. In the meantime, the city has made the silver line FREE downtown, additional to it's free downtown shuttle system. You can get from almost anywhere in the city to downtown by transit and bike lanes are also being implemented on a project-by-project basis. Not all businesses will like this, but you can't shape your city around pleasing the entire private sector. 

Instead, I want more BRTs. I want them all over the city. And I want to leave my car at home. 

We're all very aware of the city's stance and this mantra. Also, this attitude that "It works for me, why doesn't it work for you?" smacks of privilege, or new urban elitism I like to call it. 

Also, if you are a representative of the city, I'm a bit perplexed. Where else other than downtown and the suburbs are there large office spaces, that you mention? There may be some over on the West Side near Seward, but I think even those spaces are becoming hard to find. 

The reason why some of the largest downtown office users are staying put is because they hedged their bets 3 or 4 years ago when the writing was on the wall. But they are certainly having trouble when it comes to new employees. 

The Silver Line is free from Wealthy to the central station. How does this help anyone? Please describe a scenario of a downtown worker that could use this free service, point A to point B. 

 

[GRDadof3]

Here's an idea, based on other cities (and some people talking in the city of GR):

Lease spaces from large organizations in the burbs, like Calvary Church, Mars Hill, Fifth Third Ballpark, Meijer, etc.. spaces that aren't being used during the day. Run shuttle buses to downtown in big nice luxurious charter buses. They seat about 50 - 52 people. Charge $39 or $49/month (this would be easily covered with more employers offering cash-out programs). Run 3 or 4 buses in the morning in 10 minute intervals, 3 or 4 at 5:00 in 10 minute intervals. Set a goal of 150 users each at 4 satellite locations, 600 users. That's 600 users, which is the equivalent of a $21+ Million ramp downtown. 

That would be $360,000ish in revenue every year. I haven't figured out the costs yet. 

I know you guys think this commuter bus idea is crazy but it would help!  

 

[GR_Urbanist]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

Here's an idea, based on other cities (and some people talking in the city of GR):

Lease spaces from large organizations in the burbs, like Calvary Church, Mars Hill, Fifth Third Ballpark, Meijer, etc.. spaces that aren't being used during the day. Run shuttle buses to downtown in big nice luxurious charter buses. They seat about 50 - 52 people. Charge $39 or $49/month (this would be easily covered with more employers offering cash-out programs). Run 3 or 4 buses in the morning in 10 minute intervals, 3 or 4 at 5:00 in 10 minute intervals. Set a goal of 150 users each at 4 satellite locations, 600 users. That's 600 users, which is the equivalent of a $21+ Million ramp downtown. 

That would be $360,000ish in revenue every year. I haven't figured out the costs yet. 

I know you guys think this commuter bus idea is crazy but it would help!  

 

This is the only near-term solution that makes sense, even though it will likely spark some busy-body to replicate the "Google Bus" protests in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bus_protests

People that work these corporate jobs just want a premium ride, that is relatively fast, and that doesn't have a bunch of stops, nor is to be shared with pubic school students, people with terrible hygiene, guys with bags of empty bottles they salvaged from garbage bins, or moms with 3 screaming kids.

I'm sorry if it betrays the egalitarian vision of mass-transit, but the audience that needs to be catered to the most, in order to alleviate the worse of the parking crunch, isnt being addressed because they are just expected to "take one for the team" and use whatever is there, rather than the relatively more comfortable personal auto they have now.

Now we see that DT is at a crisis point where something has got to give. The whole bus-or-bike project is an utter failure thus far.

 

 

[Raildude's dad]

 

Quote

Here's an idea, based on other cities (and some people talking in the city of GR):

Lease spaces from large organizations in the burbs, like Calvary Church, Mars Hill, Fifth Third Ballpark, Meijer, etc.. spaces that aren't being used during the day. Run shuttle buses to downtown in big nice luxurious charter buses. They seat about 50 - 52 people. Charge $39 or $49/month (this would be easily covered with more employers offering cash-out programs). Run 3 or 4 buses in the morning in 10 minute intervals, 3 or 4 at 5:00 in 10 minute intervals. Set a goal of 150 users each at 4 satellite locations, 600 users. That's 600 users, which is the equivalent of a $21+ Million ramp downtown. 

That would be $360,000ish in revenue every year. I haven't figured out the costs yet. 

I know you guys think this commuter bus idea is crazy but it would help!  

A spin off of the commuter line we talked about years ago. Drop them off at the Dash Lot at GVSU, Seward and Lake Michigan for the final delivery /  pickup. It will take more than 3-4 buses for 10 minute service. I'm guessing 30-45 minute round trip.

5th/3rd West River to Turner, avoids US 131, Calvary  I-196 to Ottawa to Pearl to Lake Michigan,. Could do an express to Spectrum / Medical Mile. Grandville, I-196 to Lake Michigan, bad weather alternate is Chicago Dr to Grandville Ave.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Raildude's dad

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

 

A spin off of the commuter line we talked about years ago. Drop them off at the Dash Lot at GVSU, Seward and Lake Michigan for the final delivery /  pickup. It will take more than 3-4 buses for 10 minute service. I'm guessing 30-45 minute round trip.

5th/3rd West River to Turner, avoids US 131, Calvary  I-196 to Ottawa to Pearl to Lake Michigan,. Could do an express to Spectrum / Medical Mile. Grandville, I-196 to Lake Michigan, bad weather alternate is Chicago Dr to Grandville Ave.

No that would be it, run 4 buses in the morning: 7:30, 7:40, 7:50, 8:00am departures from each burb satellite lot direct to some central point downtown. Then 4 buses: 5:10, 5:20, 5:30, 5:40pm. That's it. On days where that doesn't work for someone, they just use visitor parking that day. Partner with uber to provide guaranteed rides to anyone who misses the bus (theyd still pay but priority service).

I have to believe 600 people out of 27000 dt workers would do this, if it's way cheaper than $100 to $200/month for ramp parking, and employers paid for it.

 

[joeDowntown]

2 hours ago, Raildude's dad said:

 

A spin off of the commuter line we talked about years ago. Drop them off at the Dash Lot at GVSU, Seward and Lake Michigan for the final delivery /  pickup. It will take more than 3-4 buses for 10 minute service. I'm guessing 30-45 minute round trip.

5th/3rd West River to Turner, avoids US 131, Calvary  I-196 to Ottawa to Pearl to Lake Michigan,. Could do an express to Spectrum / Medical Mile. Grandville, I-196 to Lake Michigan, bad weather alternate is Chicago Dr to Grandville Ave.

The problem I have with commuter lines is it adds a lot to your commute time. I bet it would work for some, but when I leave work I'm like Fred Flintstone flying off the dinosaur. I want to get home. I think I'd have a hard time adding another 30 minutes to my commute in wait time. Again, that's just me, but it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the dash lots (except they are further out). 

But again, maybe the option would be appealing to some, and free up parking for others. 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

1 minute ago, joeDowntown said:

The problem I have with commuter lines is it adds a lot to your commute time. I bet it would work for some, but when I leave work I'm like Fred Flintstone flying off the dinosaur. I want to get home. I think I'd have a hard time adding another 30 minutes to my commute in wait time. Again, that's just me, but it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the dash lots (except they are further out). 

But again, maybe the option would be appealing to some, and free up parking for others. 

Joe

I don't think it'd "add" 30 minutes Joe, if you got used to the timing. From Calvary Church to Ottawa/Monroe Center is 15 minutes tops, even driving the speed limit in a charter bus ( charter bus drivers drive fast).

[Raildude's dad]

19 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

The problem I have with commuter lines is it adds a lot to your commute time. I bet it would work for some, but when I leave work I'm like Fred Flintstone flying off the dinosaur. I want to get home. I think I'd have a hard time adding another 30 minutes to my commute in wait time. Again, that's just me, but it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the dash lots (except they are further out). 

But again, maybe the option would be appealing to some, and free up parking for others. 

Joe

"but when I leave work I'm like Fred Flintstone flying off the dinosaur. I want to get home.I think I'd have a hard time adding another 30 minutes to my commute in wait time"

And that sums up the topic / issue at hand very well. A couple years ago my wife, my daughter and some of her friends commuted for several days on the subway in Toronto from a friends home 30 minutes to downtown. My wife being the outgoing person she is, struck up a conversation with the people sitting next to her. This is a way of life for them commuting 30-50 minutes each way on the train to work everyday. Without that mindset, close and adequate parking downtown is required for businesses to locate there. If it's not available, it's out to the burbs for them.

[GRLaker]

It's all about culture and culture takes time to develop. It doesn't change over night. Grand Rapids is a commuter city. It always has been and likely will be for some time. It's all well and good to take steps to develop a non-commuter infrastructure, but while we wait for that culture shift, it's not wise to completely ignore those that do commute and want the freedom of a car. Provide options.

[wingbert]

Apparently, when it comes to their own personal health care, the folks at the city would be completely satisfied if they went to a doctor complaining of knee pain when climbing stairs and the doctor's response was, "that's easy, avoid using stairs."

[Ted]

On 2/11/2017 at 10:42 AM, Prankster said:

City can’t fix the parking problem it created

 

http://www.mmsend55.com/link.cfm?r=Jc8Yn41Qk3qdH3o4C4clSw~~&pe=TjGMiDh42WTyNqAWEAuNBGYpnYNlXN5v_FioMdRt5qg0dHwffvmfMtSUJZoC8z-YPD3sHeLQQVikVJ9PvRGa0g~~

 

Wow, the grbj really rips into the city about this one. 

GRBJ has quite literally been writing this same opinion piece since the '80's

[walker]

Assuming we all agree we need some more parking in the interim until all the SUV and car lovers die off in ten or twenty years, where would these new ramps go?  There’s not much unbuilt land downtown or near downtown anymore.

I’d nominate this Ellis lot, it could hold a lot of cars if you had a couple of basement floors and four or five floors above ground.  You could tear down and include the nondescript / non-historic buildings just to north for even more:

ELLIS LOT DIVISION-LYON

While they are building the ramp, the city could sell you parking for your SUV on Calder Plaza, plenty of concrete there.  Maybe Ellis could have the concession.  

Edited February 13, 2017 by walker

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, Ted said:

GRBJ has quite literally been writing this same opinion piece since the '80's

So why did the city start ignoring them 3 years ago?   Sounds like they've been right for more than 30 years. 

I jest, but as others have said above, mode shifts take time, maybe 10 - 20 years. Not 2. I actually don't believe mode shifts ever have a finish date.

I think the city commission is tuned into this now, and working on some solutions short and long term, so it sounds. 

[thebeerqueer]

On 2/11/2017 at 10:42 AM, Prankster said:

City can’t fix the parking problem it created

 

http://www.mmsend55.com/link.cfm?r=Jc8Yn41Qk3qdH3o4C4clSw~~&pe=TjGMiDh42WTyNqAWEAuNBGYpnYNlXN5v_FioMdRt5qg0dHwffvmfMtSUJZoC8z-YPD3sHeLQQVikVJ9PvRGa0g~~

 

Wow, the grbj really rips into the city about this one. 

The tone of this article seems a bit alarmist and slightly hyperbole (i.e. GR 'Backward') even if it is backed up with concrete data. A bit of a missed opportunity on GRBJ's behalf to get their message out clearly. 

[EastownLeo]

GVSU is trying to help.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/02/gvsu_to_buy_padnos_property_fo.html

 

Moving south,  This seems like it could be the start of a much larger GVSU plan to move this direction.

[ChevalierNoir]

On 2/2/2017 at 9:13 AM, GRDadof3 said:

When this discussion started back in 2007, the city had probably a 40% vacancy in monthly parking permits? 

Now the city only has 131 monthly parking permits left, out of what? 6000?

 

I happened to be trying out the new GR Park app to look at ramp availability for non monthly parking people. This was just a few minutes ago (9:00am on a Thursday)

 

Thoughts? 

 

Looks like at least that particular issue was a glitch in the app. At least that's what the city says...

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/02/city_working_on_a_fix_for_gran.html#incart_river_home

[x99]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 1:12 PM, GR_Urbanist said:

 

If I lived in the burbs, and worked an office job DT, I would ditch the car for this!

 

I would take that bus, as long as it stopped at my driveway. 

Seriously, though, take a step back and look what caused this:  Spectrum Health dumping 500 workers into a cube farm and sucking down virtually every last available parking pass, and more important the City going along with it.  Attempts to bribe these workers seem to have failed.

Meanwhile, that Spectrum lease was a perfect way for the city to achieve its unstated goal of clogging not only the street but also the parking ramps... "Then they'll have no choice!" I am sure at least a few of the parking apparatchik's in the newly christened Mobility Department thought with the glint of a bike frame in their eyes.  No, there is always a choice.

On the other hand, staying a taxpayer is a choice too, I suppose.  Bizarrely enough, since the City refuses to fix the intentionally engineered clog zones surrounding downtown (which did NOT exist pre bike and BRT), it would take me about the same time to hit the highway and the western edge of Forest Hills as it does to drive less than two miles home.  That's the blessing and the curse of Grand Rapids:  It's 20 minutes to get out and 20 minutes to get in, but once you're there, it takes 10 minutes to get anywhere.  So for less than the time it takes to watch a crappy sitcom, you can live somewhere much nicer, cleaner, safer, with better schools, and pretty much all the same amenities except for a few specialized entertainment options. 

You just cannot run a city like that the way they wish they could.  Turn transportation policy into social engineering policy, and you will lose. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by x99

[Guest]

As I mentioned in another thread, if the city is going to build another ramp, they should focus on going vertical.  We have so many tiny four, five six story garages around the city.  Why not go for 20?  I understand surface lots are usually created with the anticipation of future development, but there are a ton around town  Everyone knows GVSU is part of the problem, they have one tiny ramp and how many surface lots?  Take the DeVos and/or Mt. Vernon Lot and make a huge parking structure.  I assume they don't do this so they can justify buying up more land and hoarding it.

Why not add to the existing structures we have?  They are all reinforced concrete, I think they would be able to handle at least a few more floors.

Or they just build a decent subway system.  Oh wait wrong side of the pond  

[MJLO]

44 minutes ago, Floyd_Z said:

As I mentioned in another thread, if the city is going to build another ramp, they should focus on going vertical.  We have so many tiny four, five six story garages around the city.  Why not go for 20?  I understand surface lots are usually created with the anticipation of future development, but there are a ton around town  Everyone knows GVSU is part of the problem, they have one tiny ramp and how many surface lots?  Take the DeVos and/or Mt. Vernon Lot and make a huge parking structure.  I assume they don't do this so they can justify buying up more land and hoarding it.

Why not add to the existing structures we have?  They are all reinforced concrete, I think they would be able to handle at least a few more floors.

Or they just build a decent subway system.  Oh wait wrong side of the pond  

Ironic you should mention GVSU being part of the parking problem.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/02/gvsu_to_buy_padnos_property_fo.html#incart_gallery

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, thebeerqueer said:

The tone of this article seems a bit alarmist and slightly hyperbole (i.e. GR 'Backward') even if it is backed up with concrete data. A bit of a missed opportunity on GRBJ's behalf to get their message out clearly. 

I do agree with that. Carole Valade has gotten a little "spicy" with her editorials lately, lol. Some of it good.. 

3 hours ago, ChevalierNoir said:

Looks like at least that particular issue was a glitch in the app. At least that's what the city says...

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/02/city_working_on_a_fix_for_gran.html#incart_river_home

Good thing it took UrbanPlanet, GRNow and Mlive bringing it up for them to realize there was a glitch. 

This was interesting:

About 95 percent of the monthly parkers in lots 4 and 5 have found other parking spots, Naramore said. 

This is in anticipation for the new theater project. I guess I didn't realize it was moving that fast. Bring it! 

[Raildude's dad]

On 2/12/2017 at 7:17 PM, Raildude's dad said:

"but when I leave work I'm like Fred Flintstone flying off the dinosaur. I want to get home.I think I'd have a hard time adding another 30 minutes to my commute in wait time"

And that sums up the topic / issue at hand very well. A couple years ago my wife, my daughter and some of her friends commuted for several days on the subway in Toronto from a friends home 30 minutes to downtown. My wife being the outgoing person she is, struck up a conversation with the people sitting next to her. This is a way of life for them commuting 30-50 minutes each way on the train to work everyday. Without that mindset, close and adequate parking downtown is required for businesses to locate there. If it's not available, it's out to the burbs for them.

Just to add to the Toronto experience. Toronto is where traveling 15 miles on a 12 lane freeway,  6 in each direction, 3 express and 3 local lanes which move the same speed, takes 45 minutes to an hour. 15 miles here at "rush hour" might take 20 minutes vs 15 minutes during off hours. We're a long time away from where a commuter system will be beneficial.