Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[scottythe1nonly]

2 hours ago, GRLaker said:

Space may have driven them out of their office, but parking may have been the factor that drove them out of downtown entirely.

Agreed. And with a monopoly on the parking biz, there's no reason why they couldn't afford to do it.

but that's not what the piece says.   that's not what the business owner said.  

[wingbert]

2 hours ago, scottythe1nonly said:

but that's not what the piece says.   that's not what the business owner said.  

Genautis said. “We looked at downtown, near downtown....I love downtown and being able to be there and be walking distance to clients, festivals, events, but there wasn’t anything available. We needed parking and space.”

Plus:

A staffing firm formerly based downtown has moved — citing the need for more office space and its own parking lot.

"Genautis also said the lack of access to affordable and convenient parking was a factor in the decision to move."

“As we increase employees and start hiring…we pay for parking for everyone,” Genautis said.

[GRLaker]

4 minutes ago, wingbert said:

Genautis said. “We looked at downtown, near downtown....I love downtown and being able to be there and be walking distance to clients, festivals, events, but there wasn’t anything available. We needed parking and space.”

Plus:

A staffing firm formerly based downtown has moved — citing the need for more office space and its own parking lot.

"Genautis also said the lack of access to affordable and convenient parking was a factor in the decision to move."

“As we increase employees and start hiring…we pay for parking for everyone,” Genautis said.

Thank you. I was starting to think I was taking crazy pills. She also said the Dash lot use was making it difficult to attract talent. Although, she did indicate that it was a small influence on the overall decision. However, one would imagine that a larger space with available parking for growth would be a key argument for staying downtown.

[joeDowntown]

Here's an interesting editorial from Grand Rapids Business Journal

City tightens parking noose, ignores business retention

http://www.grbj.com/articles/88115-city-tightens-parking-noose-ignores-business-retention

I like the last line: "Bureaucracy is blind, deaf and dumb."

I'm just waiting for Quercus to reply with a "yeah, but...".

Joe

[scottythe1nonly]

1 hour ago, wingbert said:

Genautis said. “We looked at downtown, near downtown....I love downtown and being able to be there and be walking distance to clients, festivals, events, but there wasn’t anything available. We needed parking and space.”

Plus:

A staffing firm formerly based downtown has moved — citing the need for more office space and its own parking lot.

"Genautis also said the lack of access to affordable and convenient parking was a factor in the decision to move."

“As we increase employees and start hiring…we pay for parking for everyone,” Genautis said.

I like how you left out the important sentence .  You didn't include the entire quote.  They said:

“We love Grand Rapids, and we wanted to stay there, but there was a shortage of properties available to purchase,” 
 

Parking is irrelevant if they need more space and can't find it nearby.  It would be completely different if they said something like "there were multiple spaces we could have moved into, but parking was too expensive."   

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by scottythe1nonly

[EastownLeo]

5 minutes ago, scottythe1nonly said:

I like how you left out the important sentence .  You didn't include the entire quote.  They said:

“We love Grand Rapids, and we wanted to stay there, but there was a shortage of properties available to purchase,” 
 

Parking is irrelevant if they need more space and can't find it nearby.  It would be completely different if they said something like "there were multiple spaces we could have moved into, but parking was too expensive."  But they didn't say that!
 

 

 

If they are willing to move out to Wyoming, There are many locations on the west side, and south that they could have purchased.  They wanted a  move in read space and were not looking to renovate. And a good portion of their work is being done for out of city and out of state clients. So location is irrelevant for them at this point.  Especially as more work is done online and less in person.

Edited June 5, 2017 by EastownLeo

[GR_Urbanist]

So what is the solution here that businesses want? Are they seriously expecting their own personal lot like DT can be another 28th street?

Should we scrap all new development so their 9-5 shop can have massive lots to accommodate their staff that will then promptly leave DT at 5pm, and leave acres of empty spaces behind?

 

Now I do think Ellis, and the city need to invest in putting some massive parking structures in strategic locations because a surface lot is an insult to our intelligence in light of the crunch, and to not think that buses and bikes are an option. However, people working DT need to get that stuff isnt going to be free or 2 feet from their cubical if they want to have better parking options.

[EastownLeo]

32 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

So what is the solution here that businesses want? Are they seriously expecting their own personal lot like DT can be another 28th street?

Should we scrap all new development so their 9-5 shop can have massive lots to accommodate their staff that will then promptly leave DT at 5pm, and leave acres of empty spaces behind?

 

Now I do think Ellis, and the city need to invest in putting some massive parking structures in strategic locations because a surface lot is an insult to our intelligence in light of the crunch, and to not think that buses and bikes are an option. However, people working DT need to get that stuff isnt going to be free or 2 feet from their cubical if they want to have better parking options.

I agree, and I know this group does not like to hear it, but West Michigan has a Public Transportation problem.  The people don't want to use it. (because they they they don't have to)

Any grown city relies on public transportation to push parkingless workers into the city core.  Companies setup offices in major metro areas, giving public transportation stipends that are usually cheaper than giving them monthly parking passes.   Until the people of GR grownup, we will always have this issue.   We want growth and density, and if our hopes and dreams come true, we will never catch up with parking as long as the people want to drive and park 1 block from their desired destination.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/nashville-charlotte-public-transit/412741/

Edited June 5, 2017 by EastownLeo

[wingbert]

30 minutes ago, scottythe1nonly said:

I like how you left out the important sentence .  You didn't include the entire quote.  They said:

“We love Grand Rapids, and we wanted to stay there, but there was a shortage of properties available to purchase,” 
 

Parking is irrelevant if they need more space and can't find it nearby.  It would be completely different if they said something like "there were multiple spaces we could have moved into, but parking was too expensive."   

 

 

I didn't leave it out to hide anything.  That one little reference is important to your message but the rest of the quotes include parking as part of the rationale.  Nobody claimed they only moved because of the parking situation.  I don't think it's all that hard to follow the rationale:  company is growing and needs space to grow -> more employees means increased issues with parking convenience and cost -> suburban location with 30 spot parking lot included solves space and parking problems.  It's nothing personal.  It's just someone managing their business.  I mean, the owner specifically said, "We needed parking and space," not "space and parking" or "space and maybe a little more parking" or something like that.

 

[x99]

1 hour ago, EastownLeo said:

I agree, and I know this group does not like to hear it, but West Michigan has a Public Transportation problem.  The people don't want to use it. (because they they they don't have to)

Any grown city relies on public transportation to push parkingless workers into the city core.  Companies setup offices in major metro areas, giving public transportation stipends that are usually cheaper than giving them monthly parking passes.   Until the people of GR grownup, we will always have this issue.   We want growth and density, and if our hopes and dreams come true, we will never catch up with parking as long as the people want to drive and park 1 block from their desired destination.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/nashville-charlotte-public-transit/412741/

I'm not sure what that article was intended to prove? It basically says freedom stinks, and people need to be reedumacated to do that which makes no sense for their lives. And it wasn't lost on me that the train in Nashville represented at least $30,000 in sunk costs per rider, before considering ongoing maintenance and upkeep(!).  They built it and still no one came.  Trying to convince people they should want something other than their car when there is plenty of office space with ample parking 15 minutes away is never going to sell all that well...  That's why the transit pipe dream hasn't been working all that well... even where it doesn't snow that much.

[GRDadof3]

5 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

So what is the solution here that businesses want? Are they seriously expecting their own personal lot like DT can be another 28th street?

Should we scrap all new development so their 9-5 shop can have massive lots to accommodate their staff that will then promptly leave DT at 5pm, and leave acres of empty spaces behind?

 

Now I do think Ellis, and the city need to invest in putting some massive parking structures in strategic locations because a surface lot is an insult to our intelligence in light of the crunch, and to not think that buses and bikes are an option. However, people working DT need to get that stuff isnt going to be free or 2 feet from their cubical if they want to have better parking options.

For the 20 years prior to the bringing on of Eric Larsen to the DDA/Downtown GR/whatever name it is now, the city and DDA actually had a plan to add parking ramps every 3 or 4 years to meet the demands of businesses and residents moving in. Many were very clever public/private partnerships that were a win/win for the city: Gallery, 38 Commerce, Cherry Street ramp, etc.. I think even 20 Fulton East will have a portion that is public parking. Something changed about 5 years ago and the city decided that it was no longer their "job" to facilitate the defacto transportation used by most businesses and residents in the city: cars. Even though data shows that even in the best run large cities with robust transit, only 20% or commuters use transit. Even though data shows that in the best bicycling communities, only about 4% of commuters bike. This is data for very large cities, for which Grand Rapids will not reach for another century or more. 

The equivalent would be, as a restaurant, changing your entire menu to offerings that only 10% of your customers liked, because you're an "idealist." Idealism (based on bad data) kills businesses and municipalities. 

So in answer to your question, I don't think people want a parking spot right outside their cubicle. They just want a parking spot downtown, for which there aren't any. 

Put yourself in the position of a small business owner, for once. LIHTC apartment dwellers certainly aren't going to keep the city afloat. 

[GRLaker]

11 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

For the 20 years prior to the bringing on of Eric Larsen to the DDA/Downtown GR/whatever name it is now, the city and DDA actually had a plan to add parking ramps every 3 or 4 years to meet the demands of businesses and residents moving in. Many were very clever public/private partnerships that were a win/win for the city: Gallery, 38 Commerce, Cherry Street ramp, etc.. I think even 20 Fulton East will have a portion that is public parking. Something changed about 5 years ago and the city decided that it was no longer their "job" to facilitate the defacto transportation used by most businesses and residents in the city: cars. Even though data shows that even in the best run large cities with robust transit, only 20% or commuters use transit. Even though data shows that in the best bicycling communities, only about 4% of commuters bike. This is data for very large cities, for which Grand Rapids will not reach for another century or more. 

The equivalent would be, as a restaurant, changing your entire menu to offerings that only 10% of your customers liked, because you're an "idealist." Idealism (based on bad data) kills businesses and municipalities. 

So in answer to your question, I don't think people want a parking spot right outside their cubicle. They just want a parking spot downtown, for which there aren't any. 

Put yourself in the position of a small business owner, for once. LIHTC apartment dwellers certainly aren't going to keep the city afloat. 

So much this. I'm all for biking and mass transit, but it will never be the transportation of choice for the majority. To ignore the needs of the majority is foolish if we want to attract employers and talent.

[demhem]

If none of you have downloaded the GR Parking app I highly recommend that you do so. The app spits out live parking data at each of the City-owned ramps and surface parking lots downtown. There are currently over 1,000 open parking spaces in public lots. Do we have a parking problem? According to the current data, probably not. Do we have a monthly parking permitting problem for business owners? Possibly. Download the app and see for yourself. Each facility shows percentage currently occupied.

Edited June 6, 2017 by demhem

[Sparty97]

17 minutes ago, demhem said:

If none of you have downloaded the GR Parking app I highly recommend that you do so. The app spits out live parking data at each of the City-owned ramps and surface parking lots downtown. There are currently over 1,000 open parking spaces in public lots. Do we have a parking problem? According to the current data, probably not. Do we have a monthly parking permitting problem for business owners? Possibly. Download the app and see for yourself. Each facility shows percentage currently occupied.

I'm sure that app is great but that only works for people that are downtown randomly.  The issue is that people who work downtown (9-10 hours a day) don't want to pay for parking by the hour or by the day.  $151/month for the Pearl Ionia is a lot cheaper than paying $18/day for the 20-22 days a month ($360 to $396) we're there.  

[demhem]

8 minutes ago, Sparty97 said:

I'm sure that app is great but that only works for people that are downtown randomly.  The issue is that people who work downtown (9-10 hours a day) don't want to pay for parking by the hour or by the day.  $151/month for the Pearl Ionia is a lot cheaper than paying $18/day for the 20-22 days a month ($360 to $396) we're there.  

I'm only using the app in this case to challenge the mantra that there is a "parking shortage" downtown. I work downtown and my company pays for the spaces we lease. The lot we lease is never but half-way full and is used by at least a half-dozen other firms. If there are that many public spaces available at 9am on a Tuesday, we do not have a parking shortage. The discussion should be around increasing the number of reserved and monthly parking permits so that the price is reasonable. The solution is not to build more parking. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by demhem

[organsnyder]

4 minutes ago, demhem said:

I'm only using the app in this case to challenge the mantra that there is a "parking shortage" downtown. I work downtown and my company pays for the spaces we lease. The lot we lease is never but half-way full and is used by at least a half-dozen other firms. If there are that many public spaces available at 9am on a Tuesday, we do not have a parking shortage. The discussion should be around increasing the number of reserved and monthly parking permits so that the price is reasonable. The solution is not to build more parking. 

Exactly. Right now, we have a utilization efficiency problem—not a supply problem.

[demhem]

3 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

Exactly. Right now, we have a utilization efficiency problem—not a supply problem.

YES! Exactly. 

[x99]

16 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

Exactly. Right now, we have a utilization efficiency problem—not a supply problem.

Call it what you will, but either way, the available supply is still zero.  Even assuming 1000 spaces available, that's not enough to accommodate even one marquee employer and still maintain adequate availability of public parking.

[GRJohn]

Does anyone know if Chicago uses a formula or something similar to address parking? I realize we are not Chicago but I would rather GR try to emulate that city as opposed to Detroit.  

[demhem]

38 minutes ago, x99 said:

Call it what you will, but either way, the available supply is still zero.  Even assuming 1000 spaces available, that's not enough to accommodate even one marquee employer and still maintain adequate availability of public parking.

That is only the public spaces available; that does not include the dozens of private lots as well.

[wingbert]

Where the parking app gets its data is an important factor.  Anecdotal observations are unreliable at best.

Frustration in the Parking Garage - Where are all the spaces?

[x99]

2 hours ago, wingbert said:

Where the parking app gets its data is an important factor.  Anecdotal observations are unreliable at best.

Frustration in the Parking Garage - Where are all the spaces?

That's a good point. On any given day you have to deduct quite a few spaces for handicap marked spots, and for doubled parked spots. That easily puts 20-30 spaces out of play for a decent sized ramp. Across a bunch of ramps, it adds up. And demhem's insinuation that there are "private" lots with lots of spaces available is a fiction. The privately owned but public Ellis ramp on Pearl and most if not all Ellis lots with monthly parking are waitlisted. And truly private lots? Who cares? That's lot trying to watch your neighbor's 85" TV through his picture window and pretending it's yours.

[GRDadof3]

12 hours ago, demhem said:

If none of you have downloaded the GR Parking app I highly recommend that you do so. The app spits out live parking data at each of the City-owned ramps and surface parking lots downtown. There are currently over 1,000 open parking spaces in public lots. Do we have a parking problem? According to the current data, probably not. Do we have a monthly parking permitting problem for business owners? Possibly. Download the app and see for yourself. Each facility shows percentage currently occupied.

I provided that app data to people at the city and they said "Uhhh, yeah that's not correct." 

10 hours ago, demhem said:

That is only the public spaces available; that does not include the dozens of private lots as well.

demhem I please ask that you quit spreading incorrect information on this site. The problem is that the city cannot just "give" all of the parking spaces available over to office space owners/users. What about residents downtown? What about retailers downtown who need parking? If they committed all of the city parking spaces to officer users and monthly parkers, you can certainly kiss all the retailers goodbye, the few that are surviving. 

Private lot owners do not all provide monthly parking permits. 

There are many different categories of parking demand: office workers, residents, retail customers and just plain downtown attraction visitors. Each has a unique perspective of parking issues. What is being ignored right now is office workers and downtown office employers. So much so that the GR Chamber of Commerce and other business stakeholders have gotten involved. Call it what you will, but it's called incompetence in my book.  

 

[joeDowntown]

12 hours ago, demhem said:

That is only the public spaces available; that does not include the dozens of private lots as well.

Always two sides to every story. I park downtown. My work subsidizes half my parking. I park in the JW Parking ramp (which has to be one of the largest ramps downtown). If I'm there after 9am, I typically park on the roof. Which is floor 10 or 11. 

I hear the same from people parking in other lots. Maybe I should switch to your ramp? Haha

Joe

[gvsusean]

this whole parking issue is why cities in Asia and Europe are superior to American mid-sized cities....