Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[kermit]

20 hours ago, AuLukey said:

I know there are penalties that would have to be paid to Cintra in order to build competing lanes on 77, but what if an alternative route were to be built parallel (but not adjacent) to the interstate?  Or if more/improved roads connecting Huntersville/Cornelius/Davidson/Mooresville to one another would alleviate the traffic woes enough.  It's the lack of viable alternative routes along this corridor that is the killer to that area.

Like the Red Line?

[asthasr]

47 minutes ago, archiham04 said:

"safer" is a matter of perspective.  designing a "safe" high speed interstate freeway through an urban center in and of itself is a little bit crazy. 

True, and it was always a mistake to drop a car-trench through the middle of our cities, but since it has been done I would prefer that we not have blind off-ramps with no merge lanes, even if that does produce a sense of density.

[archiham04]

I would hate to see Winston tear down more of its urban fabric just so that people can move their cars faster... sorry getting into off topic territory here.  I think W-S should build some sort of low speed, grade separated, boulevard and avoid the trap of congestion in the name of safety.

[dcharlotte]

Meanwhile, in Houston - a $2.8 billion investment in the Katy freeway has netted longer commute times, slower traffic, and no alternatives.

Add this to the "reasons you cannot build your way out of congestion" or "congestion is good for a city, alternatives are better."

http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/it-took-51-more-time-to-drive-out-katy-freeway-in-2014-than-2011/

[UPNoDa]

 Just chiming in..... I am 100% onboard with light rail (living in NoDa) but with no definitive time line on a RedLine route northbound, I wonder if the Lake Norman crowd would be content with something like posted below on the whole toll lane debacle?

 We could ditch the existing toll lane plan/proposal and build this version instead....                                   

This is the Crosstown Expressway in Tampa FL completed around 2006. 

The elevated lanes are tolled and defined as REL (reversible express lanes) with ground level lanes being toll-free general purpose lanes open 24 hours. 

Below is brief explanation of toll lane hours.....

On Weekdays: Westbound (from Brandon Suburb to Downtown Tampa): 6 am – 10 am.
Transitional: 10 am – 1 pm. Eastbound direction (Brandon Parkway segment) opens at 10:30 am.
Westbound direction (west of 78th Street) closes at 11:30 am.

Eastbound (to Brandon?suburbs): 1 pm – 4 am.

Weekends and holidays:  Eastbound direction (to Brandon/suburbs) ONLY: 1pm (Friday afternoon) to 4 am (Monday morning)
On some major holidays, the REL will operate Eastbound all day, with direction reversing Westbound the following day at 4am, if the holiday does not fall on a Friday. If the holiday falls on a Friday, the REL will remain Eastbound throughout the entire weekend until the following Monday at 4am
 

Obviously in our scenario, we would be Northbound/Southbound reversible from Uptown to Mooresville but I am convinced this plan (if approved) would satisfy everyone.  In addition, OTR truckers (basically freight and cargo trucks) headed say south on 77 from VA to FL would not need a NC QuickPass (or cash) to simply pass thru Charlotte in order to deliver their goods. They would simply use the general purpose toll-free lanes.     thoughts....

 

[dcharlotte]

Reversible express lanes are truly one of the best solutions for urban areas. They enable the road to be flexible and carry the maximum amount of people during rush hour without wasting capacity for reverse commuters to jobs in the suburbs (generally transit inaccessible locations). 95 in DC is probably the best example of this on the east coast. 95 north of Baltimore just added express lanes, but they are not reversible with the time of day, so the non-rush hour direction is always underused at non-peak times. 

[AuLukey]

I like that idea, except that 77 backs up in both directions during (and usually between) both rush hours. Having a one way toll would only free up commuters going from Mooresville/North Meck to Charlotte and not serve the commuters going the opposite direction at all. In other words, it would only benefit the suburbanites. If there were a total of three lanes, only one of which switched directions, I'd be on board.

[go_vertical]

I have always thought something like the Selmon Expressway would be a good idea except just not for 77. There are a few different circumstances that would make something of this magnitude prohibitively expensive. First, the Selmon (or simply the crosstown to many Tampans) was started in the mid seventies connecting Tampa (pop. around 250K) west to Brandon (at the time only around 35-40K). The metro then was a sizeable 1.5 million but much of that was to the east in St. Pete and Clearwater. The westside was slower to fill up due to it being mostly industrial. Even to this day the area is still pretty run down and depressing. Think Wilkinson but less dense, more industrial uses, and more seedy strip clubs.

A majority of the elevated road was constructed in an already very wide median. Whenever they can Florida builds wide and semi-deep medians to combat flooding during the hurricane season. So ROW acquisition was fairly minimal. For about a four mile stretch the road moves between the rail yard to the north and the Palm river to the south and if I remember correctly the columns were erected in the floodplain on land already owned by the state. Again, no homes resulting in further reduced cost. In all honesty the project wasn't needed all that badly when construction started but when it was finished in 1987 (yes, over a decade later) the population had started to grow pretty rapidly and it was much more necessary.

Now, to relate this to 77. A lot of ROW would be needed. Since a large portion of 77 only has the concrete barrier roughly two lanes worth of land would be needed on both sides to provide the room needed for something like this. Even where 77 splits and does have some grass that may still not be enough thus resulting in more land gobbled up. Then, after all of that every overpass would still need to be rebuilt and THEN a three lane, 10+ mile bridge would be built. The cost would be staggering.

[asthasr]

16 hours ago, archiham04 said:

I would hate to see Winston tear down more of its urban fabric just so that people can move their cars faster... sorry getting into off topic territory here.  I think W-S should build some sort of low speed, grade separated, boulevard and avoid the trap of congestion in the name of safety.

Oh, absolutely. I would never want Business 40 expanded or made into a more modern highway; it exists because it is the original I-40, and they decided that routing through downtown was a mistake and the road was unfixable. I'm just saying that Business 40 in W-S gives the feeling of a more urban highway than Charlotte's interstate, at least in part, because of that outdated design.

[jtmonk]

UPNoDa, I believe when the NCDOT was looking at options to widen I-77 there were talks about reversible lanes but those plans were determined to not be feasible for whatever reason.  

I am also a little confused when reading your post.  You're saying that OTR trucks would need to obtain a NC QuickPass to get through Charlotte.  That is not the case.  The toll lanes that NCDOT is building on I-77 will have two general purpose lanes in each direction that are free to whomever chooses to drive in those lanes, OTR trucks included. Only the additional lanes being added will be tolled.  

[southslider]

^NCDOT is not building the new toll lanes, and trucks will be prohibited.

By the way, the private company will also be responsible for initially resurfacing, and then, ultimately maintaining the free lanes of I-77 over the 50-year contract .

[jtmonk]

Sorry Southslider, you're right, i should have been more clear.  Cintra is building the toll lanes, not the DOT.  I was just trying to clear up that the trucks wouldn't need a QuickPass because they are only allowed in the two general purpose lanes. 

 

[dubone]

The Tampa model of elevated toll lanes may need to be looked at for the southern 77 section which is extremely tight on land. 

 

The general public needs to stop being so opposed to toll lane expansion.  It is the only way to get a road built quickly without begging on state lists for decades like we did for 485 sections and Independence conversion.    People just have no idea how tight those budgets are and how a token amount of toll money that they actually would have paid in higher gas taxes that get partially distributed to Wyoming is a better deal than raising the taxes. 

They can't skip the gas tax easily on lean income times, but they could skip the toll lanes. 

But when traffic grows, the opportunity is there for further expansion with tolls, but also those tolls help keep the traffic managed so it can flow. 

 

People are so riled up at not getting their stuff for free, but really this is more for their money than an increase in gas taxes to cover everyone's dream roads. 

[southslider]

People are riled up about unequal treatment by their government. Where are the toll lanes for I-85?  Even where there will be similar toll lanes (74 and 485), where is the third free lane?  And most of all, where is the public accountability on a half-century privitization?

Edited January 7, 2016 by southslider

[dcharlotte]

6 hours ago, dubone said:

The general public needs to stop being so opposed to toll lane expansion.  It is the only way to get a road built quickly without begging on state lists for decades like we did for 485 sections and Independence conversion.    People just have no idea how tight those budgets are and how a token amount of toll money that they actually would have paid in higher gas taxes that get partially distributed to Wyoming is a better deal than raising the taxes. 

People are so riled up at not getting their stuff for free, but really this is more for their money than an increase in gas taxes to cover everyone's dream roads. 

I agree with this statement, but the flip side of the coin is the rural spending on roads in this state. Charlotte is ONE division for the NCDOT while the area that encompasses Raleigh is split up into three different divisions. Since the spending is divided rather equally among the divisions Charlotte obviously loses out every year.

In the meantime,  every little small town in North Carolina has a 4-6 lane 'beltway' or road that has been built within the last two decades. I-73 and I-74 have been built through the middle of the state spurring absolutely no economic incentive, and there have been piecemeal upgrades to the east/west routes that get vacationers to the beach.

At some point in the future every major interstate in the Charlotte region will have at least 6-8 lanes with HOV and toll lanes added on to improve overall flow depending on traffic. I'm a huge fan of toll lanes that fluctuate with the actual demand: there are still the free lanes but you at least have the option to spend the money if you're in a hurry. It keeps the region moving and keeps people on time for important things. The bigger question is should the region still be squabbling with basic capacity upgrades for an urban interstate 20 years after it was known capacity improvements were needed or should people be expected to wait longer?

Edit: I'm also more upset about the private contract. NCDOT should've built this and structured it so profits go to transit. It would be much easier to fund more express buses in those free-flowing lanes and then demonstrate the need for the red line.

Edited January 7, 2016 by dcharlotte

[southslider]

^And speaking of transit, Huntersville opted to spend their "bonus" funding on direct ramps to Hambright Rd, instead of Stumptown Rd. In other words, CATS express buses will have virtually no improved access over today's congested I-77 to either park and ride at Exit 23 (Huntersville Gateway) or Exit 25 (Northcross).

[RaleighHeelsfan]

So true! In Raleigh we have 540. The first section was built for free (no tolls) the rest of the loop is toll. How is this fair? Let the rich people in North Raleigh drive to RTP for free...but screw southern Wake co!!

17 hours ago, southslider said:

People are riled up about unequal treatment by their government. Where are the toll lanes for I-85?  Even where there will be similar toll lanes (74 and 485), where is the third free lane?  And most of all, where is the public accountability on a half-century privitization?

 And most people cannot afford the price of tolls when you take them everyday two ways. I would rather see the roads built using increased gas tax. Basically, I avoid 540 by all costs!!! If you build tolls, make everyone pay...not just some!

[Miesian Corners]

Look no further than Texas for the future of road building in North Carolina. All new roads in Dallas/Ft Worth and Houston are toll. In fact, over 500 miles of roadways in Texas are now toll (another 300 miles are in the planning stages). The toll boom is taking place, in part, because the federal tax of 18.4 cents per gallon on gasoline, hasn’t changed since 1993. Many states also haven’t raised state gasoline taxes for decades, including Texas, which hasn’t increased its 20-cents- per-gallon tax since 1991. Here in NC, the 2014 tax rate of 37.5 cents a gallon was reduced to 36 cents in March of last year by the GOP-controlled General Assembly. Last week, the tax fell to 35 cents; in 2016, it drops to 34 cents.

And here's the real rub: even with toll roads, states that have them still face transportation budget shortfalls, and there is little-to-no political will to increase the gas tax, be it on a national or state level. People need to realize (I'm talking to you, North Mecklenburg) that without a funding source, I-77 will not be widened. If there's a better alternative (using today's political climate), show it to us. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Miesian Corners
punctuation

[asthasr]

The problem is that we overbuilt, and we oversprawled. It sucks for people who bought houses that are a long way from the city and the amenities that they need, because they assumed it would always be practical, but it's just reality. There are some small towns where infrastructure liability is now higher than the total value of the buildings in the town. That means that they could sell every single building and house in the town and still not be able to cover their infrastructure costs.

[elrodvt]

The scary thing is I've read several articles where it's posited that the suburbs will be the slums of tomorrow as transit costs plus the desire to walk places makes them unappealing. Not in my lifetime I'm sure.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, elrodvt said:

The scary thing is I've read several articles where it's posited that the suburbs will be the slums of tomorrow as transit costs plus the desire to walk places makes them unappealing. Not in my lifetime I'm sure.

Its happening now and in some places the process of suburban decline has been going for nearly 20 years. You can see it now in NW Charlotte, the Eastside and University City. There are plenty of signs of this process starting in Union county as well. Beyond Charlotte there are plenty of even more advanced examples such as Gwinnett county Georgia and Prince Georges county Maryland (the North American leader in suburban decline). More broadly we can see substantial shifts in crime rates (suburban crime up, urban crime down) and are beginning to see significant changes in public school quality as suburban poverty rises (see the recent Union county redistricting kerfuffle).  

Since falling gas prices are taking some of the sting out of long commutes I think the next trigger for suburban abandonment will come from oversupplied retail space. Concurrent with online shopping reducing the need for space we are seeing the most affluent move closer to their jobs in the city. These two craps will increase vacancy rates in the already overbuilt suburban commercial property sector, ultimately encouraging the remaining commercial tenants to flee. No one is going to choose to live beside dark strip centers and dead malls and suburban municipalities are going to see a huge tax hit. 

This class-flight (the modern equivalent of white-flight) is going to be painful since the majority of American's have a large portion of their savings sunk into suburban single family properties and they have cultural baggage that makes them fear urban areas. Human nature means that most of this group to bury their head in the sand until its too late (e.g. "the millennials will move to the burbs as soon as they have kids") and then they will whine for government at all scales to prop-up their investments -- which is exactly what we are seeing now with the 77 toll road.

[cranky old coot steps off soapbox...]

EDIT: My rantings are not intended to suggest that all suburbs will become Detroit. There will always be wealthy and nice burbs (just as there were always wealthy and nice in-town hoods). But I do believe that marginal changes in personal preference for urban living will create disproportionate decline in suburban environments and we are on the cusp of a suburban decline that will be every bit as dramatic and urban decline was in the 70s and 80s.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by kermit

[southslider]

^Yep, already happening in Charlotte, too. From older subdivisions, like Hidden Valley, to newer ones, like Windy Valley.

[Third Strike]

22 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

The scary thing is I've read several articles where it's posited that the suburbs will be the slums of tomorrow as transit costs plus the desire to walk places makes them unappealing. Not in my lifetime I'm sure.

Already happening in parts of the country. And honestly, it seems like the most impoverished and dangerous areas in Charlotte are the inner suburbs. At least the inner-ring neighborhoods around Uptown could be refurbished after decades of misuse. But the suburbs? Most areas would have to be completely torn down for practical development. Even mass transit might not be enough for suburbia, like how little impact the Blue Line has had on areas south of Scaleybark. It also doesn't help that our city council approves any crap that gets thrown their way.

[SgtCampsalot]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

Its happening now and (in some places) the process of suburban decline has been going for nearly 20 years.

It was that process that had to happen for the actual shift to happen: A generation of Americans who grew up in a world where every class level lived in the suburbs, from the wealthy, to the dirt poor: every one of them were a suburban model.

I feel the only way to help those struggling suburbs will be for the existing small towns to develop their own cores/nodes and retrofit their own connectivity. Though any municipality that doesn't have an old downtown stock of buildings (like Mint Hill, Stallings, Hemby Bridge, etc, to the east, the ones that were just farm towns) dont have any interest in that, so they just wont

[elrodvt]

7 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

It was that process that had to happen for the actual shift to happen: A generation of Americans who grew up in a world where every class level lived in the suburbs, from the wealthy, to the dirt poor: every one of them were a suburban model.

I feel the only way to help those struggling suburbs will be for the existing small towns to develop their own cores/nodes and retrofit their own connectivity. Though any municipality that doesn't have an old downtown stock of buildings (like Mint Hill, Stallings, Hemby Bridge, etc, to the east, the ones that were just farm towns) dont have any interest in that, so they just wont

Shouldn't we just send the poorer suburbs and rural areas all the tax revenue from the city to fix it? Oh wait... 

By "not in my lifetime" I meant the balance will not have shifted. I know it's happening but it is very gradual especially in many areas of the south where there really is no urban core to move to.