210 Trade | EpiCentre

[tiblerbrit]

Don't forget too that there is a massive foundation and support structure for 210 trade in place. Quite a lot of money has already been invested in the tower.

[MZT]

They never finished the tower above the Arcade in Asheville... from 70 years ago...

Edited June 17, 2008 by MZT

[sleightofhand]

I heard two years ago that F&C and the Ghazi Group were no longer speaking to each other.

[dxartist]

I was skeptical about F&C back when they bought the air rights since they had no experience in building towers. In hindsight, just wished someone else got the rights instead. It is what it is.

Epicenter will be finished with an unfinshed eyesore "two story" tower. Man this will look ugly.

Edited June 17, 2008 by dxartist

[atlrvr]

Can it even be finished though? With 210 Trade sitting exposed to the elements, it might be hard to "seal" the lower portion of the tower. At this stage, I doubt F&C is going to incur any expense to help EpiCentre open....who knows. When two suburban builders partner to build the most complex urban project in the state's history, one can hardly be surprised by the outcome.

[dubone]

One of the points I noticed in the article today but missed if it were there yesterday is that in order to fulfill the deed rules for county certification is for Ghazi's investors to sign on to co own the project. The fact that they won't seems to mean to me that they think it too risky.

It just seems like there are a lot of excuses here but no clear path to resolution. The only thing I can figure is that F&C will need to find another investor like the Vue did enough to either make the needed deed changes or else get Ghazi to invest to get it done.

The fact that it has come to a lawsuit seems like the chances are slim of finding that type of outcome.

[ontap]

One of the points I noticed in the article today but missed if it were there yesterday is that in order to fulfill the deed rules for county certification is for Ghazi's investors to sign on to co own the project. The fact that they won't seems to mean to me that they think it too risky.

Is that the case? I thought the article meant that Ghazi will not sign off acknowledging F&C's "co-ownership" status of what they are building on top of. I thought the horizontal rights were a result of co-ownership of the garage space, etc and the inherent responsibilities of utilities, easements...etc. Am I wrong? This is a complicated test case of multi-use multi-builder product coupled with no city zoning precident.

Can all the other portions of Epicenter be finished and a CO be issued?

[AuLukey]

well, in my own opinion, this "stall" is a good thing for the uptown condo market. If the buyers currently under contract are able to get out, that leaves two benefits to developments like the Vue, 300 S Tryon, Catalyst, Avenue, etc.:

1. fewer condos for sale on the market.

2. plenty of buyers with a recently refunded, fresh down payment in their pockets (assuming the economy doesn't scare most of them off.)

Considering the location of the foundation for this tower, construction will be a bit hard for a new developer to step in, but it is prime air rights with a solid foundation that I'm sure Ghazi will be eager to sell off if F&C backs out completely. (Or is it the other way around where F&C would be selling the air rights they already own?) Therefore, it may be a few years off before we see any movement on site in light of this lawsuit, but IMHO, it will happen.

Edited June 17, 2008 by aussie luke

[MZT]

I would think Ghazi can get some kind of court order for H&C to environmentally secure what they've built, and if they don't, that Ghazi's crew can do it... then sue H&C for the cost of that. More liens, more mess. I suppose those 2 floors can ultimately become managerial offices for the commercial centers, or something.

[monsoon]

Maybe it will continue to be built, maybe in the future, maybe by someone else. We don't know the real reasons for the lawsuit nor do we know Ghazi's response. Again we only have the info in the Observer, which I would take very lightly. Remember there was an article posted here just last week from the CBJ where it was claimed that construction would start in 30 days. (I think that is a good example why the CBJ should not be considered a reliable source for anything.)

I do think if they lose their current contracts then this concept is probably done unless the developer builds it completely on spec. The reason for this is nobody, with knowledge of these events, is going to risk tying up money for years with the possibility that it might never be built. If I had a contract on it, I would be looking at ways to get our of it, because, if they were to start back up today, its going to be 2 more years at best before I could move in. I just don't see it unless it was nothing more than an investment and from an investment point of view, it doesn't make sense now. There are plenty of unsold condos in Charlotte if the real reason was to have a place downtown.

Unless this issue is quickly solved, then I suspect that we will see a much smaller building constructed on the site. Condo towers over 25 stories don't make much sense anyway, especially in a city like Charlotte, so that is probably what will end up there.

[schmopperX]

Condo towers over 25 stories don't make much sense anyway, especially in a city like Charlotte, so that is probably what will end up there.

Somebody better tell Catalyst, The Vue and Wachovia, quick.

[monsoon]

Somebody better tell Catalyst, The Vue and Wachovia, quick.

Looks like 210 Trade, Trump, 300 S. Tryon, etc have already figured it out. Where is the Wachovia condo tower?

However if there was such a hot market now for 25+ story condos, especially one exceeding 50 stories, they would be building 210 Trade today. I aways say the proof is in the pudding.

[stateman99]

LOL. The Catalyst, Vue, Trademark, Wachovia (yes, it will be built), and Avenue among others all being built in a few years time frame might indicate Charlotte as being a slightly good market for highrise condos.

I personally feel that something will be built on this site too. It just might be a couple years from now.

Edited June 18, 2008 by stateman99

[elvigy]

Looks like 210 Trade, Trump, 300 S. Tryon, etc have already figured it out. Where is the Wachovia condo tower?

However if there was such a hot market now for 25+ story condos, especially one exceeding 50 stories, they would be building 210 Trade today. I aways say the proof is in the pudding.

From all I've read here, the problem is not the demand for 210 Trade. Sales seemed to be OK. Infighting between Ghazi and F&C, inexperience with these types of projects, and bureaucratic issues have gotten us to where we are.

[carolinabeachmom]

Just discovered this site while investigating why 210 Trade was stalled. I'm one of those 265 "owners" but live out of state. Thanks for being the eyes and ears in Charlotte. Have not received any official communication from 210 saying that they are not building. Just last week received a newsletter from 210 (from the sales office) that was all positive and cheery. (wishful thinking?) I really don't care if it is delayed, but really want it to go forward. It is a great project and would be an asset to Charlotte. Doesn't Ghazi want the tower built so there will be lots more patrons for his retail shop owners?

[Andyc545]

If this were any other site, I would say, alright, let it get through its misery and continue construction in 2 or 3+ years. However, given this is a focal point in our center city, right next to our first 5 Star Hotel, and the focus in a complex block that is wrapped by all of this public retail, hotel, and bars, it's going to cause a lot of problems just sitting there without (at the very minimum) the bottom epicentre/movie theater/bowling being finished off. It will bring down the value of EpiCentre, create a sore visual for it's surrounding neighbors (especially ones with power and money- BofA), and makes it less worthwhile for some of the companies that have signed on to be part of the complex. It's also going to be less desired to be there as a pedestrian. When stuff sits like this, it becomes a center for crime and homeless... and this is all suppose to be in the heart of our city and kickoff to the center city retail.

I'd be fine if they finished off what has been start, open up all of the space below, as well as the theater and bowling alley, and cleaned up the top so that this was all safe and appealing for the pedestrian, then come back in a few years and create a tower on top. By the sounds of all of this, it seems like both companies aren't going to take the initiative until there is $ involved to do it.

It's stuff like this that really makes me wish there were standards that prevented unfinished projects from sitting. The property should be acquired by the funding bank and sold off to someone that had a solid plan and initiative into finishing projects, sort of like with foreclosures.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Andyc545

[nyxmike]

If this were any other site, I would say, alright, let it get through its misery and continue construction in 2 or 3+ years. However, given this is a focal point in our center city, right next to our first 5 Star Hotel, and the focus in a complex block that is wrapped by all of this public retail, hotel, and bars, it's going to cause a lot of problems just sitting there without (at the very minimum) the bottom epicentre/movie theater/bowling being finished off. It will bring down the value of EpiCentre, create a sore visual for it's surrounding neighbors (especially ones with power and money- BofA), and makes it less worthwhile for some of the companies that have signed on to be part of the complex. It's also going to be less desired to be there as a pedestrian. When stuff sits like this, it becomes a center for crime and homeless... and this is all suppose to be in the heart of our city and kickoff to the center city retail.

I'd be fine if they finished off what has been start, open up all of the space below, as well as the theater and bowling alley, and cleaned up the top so that this was all safe and appealing for the pedestrian, then come back in a few years and create a tower on top. By the sounds of all of this, it seems like both companies aren't going to take the initiative until there is $ involved to do it.

It's stuff like this that really makes me wish there were standards that prevented unfinished projects from sitting. The property should be acquired by the funding bank and sold off to someone that had a solid plan and initiative into finishing projects, sort of like with foreclosures.

Who said anything about the bowling alley and movie theater not being finished? What do they have to do with the condo tower? I hope this isn't true.

[dubone]

Maybe the lawsuit is just a threat to make Ghazi's investors jump and help resolve the deed issue. Surely something is workable to get the deed issue resolved, but maybe Ghazi's investors and principals felt that they could get away with staying out of it. The lawsuit certainly gives them a worse alternative than whatever F&C need them to do to resolve the deed issue.

I'm resigned to the idea that a few of these projects are going to die. Realistically, we all should have known that would happen, especially if the economy slowed. But this one seemed like it was going to make it because it is in such as important location and they seemed to be moving forward with construction.

It seems possible that this might be just what is needed to make it happen. But I don't want to be too optimistic. For things to get to this level, it is not looking good at all, and it serves to spook buyers and lenders away, which might be enough to kill the project outright just as others have said.

[southslider]

Given the stronger market, maybe it's time to think office tower instead of condos above Epicenter. Sure would make more sense to have dense employment right beside our region's transit hub.

[MZT]

Commercial real estate is the next big shoe to drop. Seems like all the rumors of a new HQ relocating to Charlotte have dried up... so I would not expect a deep pocketed spec builder to pick up completing 210 as office.

[tozmervo]

I'm resigned to the idea that a few of these projects are going to die. Realistically, we all should have known that would happen, especially if the economy slowed. But this one seemed like it was going to make it because it is in such as important location and they seemed to be moving forward with construction.

Its also one thing to have a project die before its out of the ground, but this will be the third project in the area that's dead in the air. Smith Curry, the Park and 210 are going to have a nice little triumvirate going now.

[Charlotte_native]

Commercial real estate is the next big shoe to drop. Seems like all the rumors of a new HQ relocating to Charlotte have dried up... so I would not expect a deep pocketed spec builder to pick up completing 210 as office.

They did announce today that Delloitte will be a large tenant in the Wachovia tower increasing their presense in Charlotte.

[tiblerbrit]

^^In the same article it mentions that another large tenant will occupy a lot of space in Wachovia HQ, but aren't ready to release the name.

[stateman99]

Yeah, and I was told about a huge firm moving to Charlotte. I wasn't given specifics for confidentiality, but I do know it's coming from up north. I don't talk to the person who told me about this anymore, so I don't mind sharing, but I do know for a fact this info is true.

[Charlotte_native]

Office at this location, or any in uptown, is good. Our vacancy rates have been so low that it has actually been detrimental to any new, large, relocations for lack of available contiguous space.