210 Trade | EpiCentre

[ScottCLT]

Howl at the Moon will be a great addition both to Epicentre and Charlotte, and definitely will up the volume, literally, on what is already there.

I have been missing a dueling piano bar ever since Sam's Uptune Saloon left. I went to a Howl at the Moon in Louisville (much smaller than the one here) just last month and it just brought back great memories of singing along to the crowd-pleasing, dirty-mouthed piano players. The only thing is -- the show is pretty much the same every night, so it's not one of those spots that you hit up every weekend. It's a once-every-couple-of-months type place. Still, I'm hugely excited about it.

[shane828]

There's a dueling piano bar off HWY 150 in Lake Norman, Jokers, but alas, I won't stray any further off-topic.

[83alphaunder]

There's a dueling piano bar off HWY 150 in Lake Norman, Jokers, but alas, I won't stray any further off-topic.

Take this with a grain of salt but, 210 Trade is now being called a 42 story condo tower by the Charlotte Business Journal. I guess this is saying the tower will be 42 stories on top of 5-6 stories of retail/office. This is fairly consistant with the website which only goes up to 48 stories of residences. It seems they had to break the project into phases because of its complexity. They are also saying 210 trade won't be done til 2011. AKA Atlrvr was correct.

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte...mn4.html?page=1

Edited June 6, 2008 by 83alphaunder

[stateman99]

I'm hearing 210Trade lost its financing. I can't say it's 100% but that is what I am hearing as of this week.

Edited June 6, 2008 by stateman99

[Route]

Nope that's not right. Charlotte Business Journal reporting today they resume construction next month. Everything is a go. They got $550,000 payment from the city as part of infrastructure improvements which they passed to the lender and everything is now on track.

[monsoon]

Nope that's not right. Charlotte Business Journal reporting today they resume construction next month. Everything is a go. They got $550,000 payment from the city as part of infrastructure improvements which they passed to the lender and everything is now on track.

I was under the impression that money went to Ghazi for the Epicenter project and not 210 Trade which is being developed by Flaherty & Collins Properties.

Update: this is also confirmed in the CBJ article you are referring to. The money goes to epicenter.

[swh1972]

Did construction on Aloft come to a halt? I haven't seen anything moving on the site for about 10 days.

[tiblerbrit]

On the webcam you can see plenty of work being done. Stucco is being applied to the exterior, and more siding has been put up. It has topped out now so there will only be exterior siding and interior work.

[swh1972]

^ My mistake. They just happen to be working on the side of the building that doesn't face my office. I see the workers now.

[dubone]

Is this perhaps some cash flow assistance from Ghazi to Flaherty? That payment from the city went to Ghazi for infrastructural improvements that he did, including the bridge to the Lynx station. However, it is possible that he can justify lending that cash to Flaherty to keep their project on track, since the success of EpiCentre will be helped or hurt by whether or not Flaherty can move their project forward.

Certainly Ghazi can expect to recoup that money when the project is done, but in the interim, he probably considers it a worth the risk to try to keep the tower on track.

[stateman99]

Not sure, I just know that I heard the lender bailed. That was all I heard other than the fact that it is in limbo. Again, I can't say it is for certain, but I know it's from a credible source.

[monsoon]

..... However, it is possible that he can justify lending that cash to Flaherty to keep their project on track, since the success of EpiCentre will be helped or hurt by whether or not Flaherty can move their project forward......

Possibly, but my guess is that 210 Trade will not fly or not based on the availability of just $500K. (roughly the sales price of 1-2 units) This is a 50 story tower that either has the sales contracts in place at the right price to secure financing or they don't. I think it boils down to that single equation. The fact they are not moving forward suggests there is something terribly wrong given that we had not only one of their architects posting here (couple of years ago) about the excitement of 210 Trade, that has since disappeared and the news they supposedly sold this place out in a weekend. We were led to believe then it would be finished by now. Something has definately changed.

[dubone]

Where are they on that 2 year limit before they have to let people out of their contracts? The Vue was hit hard by that, going backwards in sales for a while. If 210 Trade has gotten that, that might be part of the problem. I agree that 500k is not much to shore up the project single handedly. However, if that rumor that there was a transfer to Flaherty's lender, it seems to me that it would fit only in the context of Ghazi trying to help keep things on track. Really, it is Ghazi's reimbursement for work he paid for, so if he is passing it to Flaherty who is dumping it into a black hole, then Ghazi really didn't make a smart move. Of course, this is just speculation on top of a rumor, so we'll see how it really turns out.

[Raintree21]

If the rumor of a transfer is true, it could just be buying time in order for them to sell more units and keep construction going. While $500k is just a drop in the bucket when compared to the cost of the entire project, it could keep them building for a while. People aren't going to want to invest in something if they don't see steel moving.

[New Name]

"O" reports about 210:

"A problem arose after the city's code enforcement department discovered the project had been filed as a single-owner building on the EpiCentre site, when ownership actually will be shared by the owners of the condo tower, the office-entertainment complex and the hotel.

Flaherty & Collins' attorneys were to draw up a condo agreement to show how each entity will satisfy the city's code requirements."

[New Name]

Again, I direct your attention to a story in the "O" which reports that Flaherety & Collins is now suing Ghazi over the aforementioned code dispute. Yikes. LINK

[monsoon]

So F&C is suing Ghazi to the tune of $70M and to scrap the project. If the project is to continue they want an additional $28M from Ghazi. I think we just discovered how much of a deficit there is before this project will be built.

[Raintree21]

Well that sucks. At least we found out what the county code issue is/was:

The problem arose with the county's code enforcement department after it discovered the project had been filed as a single-owner building on the EpiCentre site, when ownership is actually being shared by the owners of the condo tower, the office-entertainment complex and a hotel that's going up on the site.

[fortyniner]

I wonder what Ghazi's side of the story is?

Based on the info in the Big O, I would hope the parties make nice, take the matter to an arbitrator, and get on with the condo tower. I would hate to see this scrapped, and it would detract from the glitter that will make Epicentre exciting.

As thise contracts start to expire, time is of the essence, if the project is to be saved.

[dubone]

Gulp. Does this answer the 210Trade vs Vue question??? Atlrvr gets the crystal ball award on this one, as I'm sure someone (probably him) will pull back up from probably 70 pages ago.

I am now pretty much counting this project as dead, and there is NO WAY that the deed issue caused the fatal blow to this project. It seems like it is just a skapegoat for happening to stall the project at a time when the lenders are jittery and fearful. But for a very long time, we've heard skepticism of Flaherty's experience and their original pricing. If they are coming up with a f'n $70m sum for lost profit and for all costs to be reimbursed, there MUST be something more fundamental than a delay for some deed issue. Maybe there is something to Ghazi not cooperating to resolve the issue, but I'd sure like to know what that is, given that he obviously is helped long term (from leasing and reputation) for the condo to go on to completion.

I must say that the aloft blocking views to the tune of $2m is a fairly large stretch. PLEASE tell me who buys a condo for the view of the BB&T Center!? Then give that person a 50's Hollywood face slap that magically snaps them back to sanity, because, um, that is one ugly building.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes, but I REALLY need to see something that Ghazi did to block the resolution of the deed issue, otherwise, I'm very skeptical that this is not just the result of some bad choices up front that ended up proving fatal for the project when the lenders tighted their belts.

[HopHead]

Unbelievable... I agree with dubone, this is the nail in the coffin on this project. I'd like to see some way for this tower to move forward, but it looks like a lost cause. Wonder what may happen in it's place now?

[CLTMichael]

I have also heard they were looking for more funds. IMO the units there are too expensive for the current market. Maybe all of this will lower the costs of the condos.

[monsoon]

^What was suggested in this topic some time ago was the fact that the units in the condo tower were sold at too low a price to cover the actual cost of building the building. It was said that it was due to the fact that F&C was inexperienced with such a project and the real estate agency charged with selling the place did not handle it properly, hence the sellout in one weekend. If this is the reason, then the cost of the units need to be increased, not decreased. Inflation, global competition for resources and energy costs have all moved fast over the last few years to substantially increase the cost of putting up a tower. We have often seen now what this has done to towers in downtown. Pretty renderings end up being unattractive EIFS boxes and substantial cuts, like the quality of plumbing and removing elevators, were made to compensate.

If this in fact was the case F&C may have delayed while it examined its options. I assume they could have simply canceled the contracts for a higher prices, as was done to some other condo buyers in downtown, but the market timing is not good for them to do this now. The "gotta have" mentality has been replaced by "is this really a good deal".

BTW this could also be caused by the drop out of enough buyers to make the tower unfeasible now.

[atlrvr]

This has all been in the works for at least 6 months now. Its interesting that you have one party commenting and the other giving the press the silent treatment....it seems someone wants to try the case in the court of public opinion. Just because there is a lawsuit, it doesn't mean there isn't desire to complete the project on both sides. These things are always about trying to squeeze as much money from the other party based on the most liberal perspective of signed agreements. $2M for blocking the view, yes ridiculous, but it isn't so much about money, as it is about getting money they feel they are legally owed.....also think of it this way, why should Ghazi get to profit from selling additional air-rights at the expense of F&C's condos?

For the record, I don't think I've ever said it won't be built, but I have always maintained that it would be delayed significantly and would be built at a lower quality than promised. As monsoon said, the longer these issues persist, the bigger the issue becomes.

At this point, I think the more immediate question is will this affect their ability to deliver space occupied in the buildings shared with 210?

[voyager12]

^ That's a good question. I don't see much upside for the additional commercial tenants to open in a complex with a stalled centerpiece. Not a good visual. Hopefully these issues will be resolved.

Edited June 17, 2008 by voyager12