Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[ChiefJoJo]

Just in case anyone decides to take it there, keep the discussion on the project, and off each other.

[RALNATIVE]

If Soleil gets built, great, I'd love to see it on the skyline. Just build it once all the permits come through and don't dawdle around wasting everyone's time/money.

Just for the record, they have already started the building process.

[DPK]

Just for the record, they have already started the building process.

You know what I meant, hehe. Let's just agree to disagree and have our opinions. I don't want to start a fight over something this silly.

[Jones_]

Just for the record, they have already started the building process.

If you reread the above the posts, we all know the building process has begun. The current discussion is about pitfalls after construction has begun. This topic is completely legit. Buildings stop mid-stream for lots of reasons. This one had incorrect zoning. Companies can go bankrupt mid-project. Of course AIA has their take to support their professionals. It is common for comapnies that make bad decisions on other projects to have potential good projects suffer like perhaps Soleil not making anything off the Capital Blvd property. Even Donald Trump cannot help some poor plans. So uh, yeah...

[RALNATIVE]

If you reread the above the posts, we all know the building process has begun. The current discussion is about pitfalls after construction has begun. This topic is completely legit. Buildings stop mid-stream for lots of reasons. This one had incorrect zoning. Companies can go bankrupt mid-project. Of course AIA has their take to support their professionals. It is common for comapnies that make bad decisions on other projects to have potential good projects suffer like perhaps Soleil not making anything off the Capital Blvd property. Even Donald Trump cannot help some poor plans. So uh, yeah...

I don't want to start a cat fight here, because that seems to be where this may go, but based on my experience as a project manager and a consultant to some Fortune 500 companies, the Soleil group has put themselves in the best possible position for success, based on what I have seen thusfar. But with any project, failure is a possibility which is why good planning is crucial.

The point i'm trying to make is that this is not just some company trying to build their own bldg for office space, but this is a mixed use bldg with a very important and desired hotel component. If for some reason the Soleil group is not able to deliver, I'm thinking that some other entity will step in and pick up the pieces and deliver the project. It's all about what makes sense.

[Jones_]

Oh, definitely not a cat fight....I agree that the hotel component is what gives Soleil a fighting chance. But even that seems like alot of overhead for a Westin. I am not completely sure what the Soleil group portfolio looks like but I am guessing this is their largest project to date....they probably didn't have the cash on hand to finance this so a bank or investment group took the hotel numbers and let 'em start digging...even without all building permits (which I think is risky though standard practice). I think what Webguy, DPK and myself (and others) are getting at is that when obvious concerns were either brushed aside or only given cursory attention, perhaps the brains here are missing some bigger stuff too. If Bob Winston, successful as he is, can in 24 months go from saying a subsidized hotel wont work downtown, then propose one of his own without subsidies, then this obvious and gross miscalculation of area markets could easily happen to Soleil too, albeit in reverse (thinking too big on wrong plot of land). Trying to tag midtown as a huge area including the RBC center is just silly and is one thing that lends teeth to either desparation marketing for the condos or that someone somewhere just dosn't get it. Despite the big dollars, the almost rediculous points where compentance seems to lack, makes me scratch my head.....in the end I hope I am wrong and that after Soleil they come downtown or North Hills and plop another 40 or 50 story buildind down.

[vitaviatic]

Wow.

The vitriol still drips over this one. Most everyone still seems fixated on the high-priced condos at this site. What drove this whole thing was the hotel. The room inventory, plus the office space will, by my crude estimations, cover this thing, even if they only run a 75% occupancy rate. There was, and still is, a dearth of upscale (5*) hotel space in Raleigh and the rest of the Triangle, especially as near the airport as it is (and on the relatively drivable -- by comparison -- Glenwood Ave.) Private sector expense accounts change the entire dynamics of the hotel industry. The more high-end industry you get, the more high-level executives you get flying in, and/or entertaining folks they'd like to impress. A $400-a-night hotel room is not limited to midtown Manhattan anymore, and you'll see more of them because these people love to spend money on themselves and their friends -- especially when it gets written off by the accountants.

For those of you ringing your hands in glee at the prospect of Soleil taking a nose dive, I'd sooner bet on the Patriots getting knocked off in the playoffs. If this project fails, it will not be because of a sick residential real estate market, much less poor planning. It will be because of a depressed business travel climate, which is a symptom of sick business and also entails layoffs, so everybody oughtta be worried then. These guys aren't stupid, and they definitely did their homework. For them to even to have gophered out this property and exploit its O&I2 like they did, they are either deft realtors themselves, or got some golden information to go on.

It bothers me that people would actually enjoy (or at least breath an air of self-righteousness over) seeing a towering skeleton looming over some of the most important real estate in your city. If Soleil for some reason doesn't get built, it will become a drag on property values all around it, and will siphon the entire city's coffers as well. You might get a laugh at first, but the last laugh may well be on yourself if things start to unravel. We've got a couple of buildings here in downtown Denver that had European financing where the loans got pulled. But they are mixed-use with hotels as well, and they will get built. (The Democratic Convention next year will guarantee that.) Somebody might get stuck holding the bag, and the titles shuffled around a bit, but if so they will get picked up for cents on the dollar, get finished off, and will do nicely. IMHO, Soleil Group has got more solid funding behind it as well as a decent business plan. According to the numbers I put up a few months ago here, the thing works even if condo one doesn't sell. That was all just icing on the cake.

Whatever your initial opinion was of this project, its location, the ownership group, or any of it -- it's going up now, and you'd better hope it keeps going up or you might find yourselves in the drainswirl, even if you live Sanford, Pinehurst, or Roanoke Rapids.

[Jones_]

I stayed at the Denver Westin last month on 16th and Lawrence. I had a conference at the Charlotte one a week ago. Both of those are in downtown proper. As a now and then conventioneer, I can say that restaurants and drinking spots dominate what folks want to do after the talking is done (old and young) for the day. Forgetting height, density etc, of Soleil, I think a Westin belongs in downtown. Crabtree Valley mall cannot hold a candle to downtown when it comes to food and drink. I am sure this Westin will have abundant conference rooms of its own, but $400 a night hotels rooms sell a might faster when there is complentary meeting space nearby. I am not sure there are enough high end executives in RTP coming and going to keep this baby 75% full. I for one do not relish Soleil going belly up....but I hardly think the value of a 3000 sqft house in Brookhaven will suffer if it does. I have no vitriol at all...promise. I am only irked at the "its done and over its being built so blah blah shut up or you are going to Guantanamo" sentiment. The start is done, but the finish ain't. And after that its gotta turn in black numbers, not red ones. I am curious because I am unconvinced. That is all.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I stayed at the Denver Westin last month on 16th and Lawrence. I had a conference at the Charlotte one a week ago. Both of those are in downtown proper. As a now and then conventioneer, I can say that restaurants and drinking spots dominate what folks want to do after the talking is done (old and young) for the day. Forgetting height, density etc, of Soleil, I think a Westin belongs in downtown. Crabtree Valley mall cannot hold a candle to downtown when it comes to food and drink. I am sure this Westin will have abundant conference rooms of its own, but $400 a night hotels rooms sell a might faster when there is complentary meeting space nearby. I am not sure there are enough high end executives in RTP coming and going to keep this baby 75% full. I for one do not relish Soleil going belly up....but I hardly think the value of a 3000 sqft house in Brookhaven will suffer if it does. I have no vitriol at all...promise. I am only irked at the "its done and over its being built so blah blah shut up or you are going to Guantanamo" sentiment. The start is done, but the finish ain't. And after that its gotta turn in black numbers, not red ones. I am curious because I am unconvinced. That is all.

Agree with some of what you say (expensive hotels and is the demand there for the high end) but I would dare say that 80% of business travel has nothing to do with a convention center or even meeting space outside of a companies office location.. It is "come to town for a couple of days, meet with a company or team where they work and then fly out." That is where Crabtree is the chosen place for many. They have a car already since the offices they visiting are outside of the beltline so access to those locations and the airport are key.

I work for a large company in RTP. On our hotel list, not one hotel is downtown and I would dare say, will not be in the near future, even as more hotels are built. The reason?---No reason to stay DT when business is outside of DT. We have about 4 or 5 hotels in the Crabtree area and that is the place where many of our visitors stay and their preferred place. Many and I say most could care less about staying downtown. I would say when our company has people come here from Asia, they really could care less about DT. They live in an urban location and like the fact they can take a 5 minutes walk across the street to a mall at night to shop after working and catching up with email and phone calls.

For business meals, which would happen with some of the 80% business travel, Crabtree offers easy access to many locations including DT and other places (Margaux

[Jones_]

^I am glad to hear from someone who works in RTP and deals with business traveling alot. I find it interesting that RTP and downtown almost seem to be in competition in soome ways. Not necessarily a bad thing...we are a large region and can support multiple regions of activity. I admit I cannot begin to understand life and its routines outside 540. Soleil clearly has identified itself with this region...the center of the 'triangle'. Works for me. Thanks.

[Subway Scoundrel]

^I am glad to hear from someone who works in RTP and deals with business traveling alot. I find it interesting that RTP and downtown almost seem to be in competition in soome ways. Not necessarily a bad thing...we are a large region and can support multiple regions of activity. I admit I cannot begin to understand life and its routines outside 540. Soleil clearly has identified itself with this region...the center of the 'triangle'. Works for me. Thanks.

I am born (almost) and bred inside the beltliner and only live 1/2 mile outside and the only person in my family to live outside the beltline, but it is amazing the 2 worlds. I get to see both sides and with DT growing, the outsiders are getting to be part of the inside. That can only be good. I know people who have never/rarely been DT Raleigh yet they live in Raleigh and would not know how to get there.......but the pull is happening where they have to. Many are city people who moved here and like the surburban "everything is new" lifestyle. Yes, different world but DT is slowly pulling them in.

With announcements like the one today with the Energy SW company HQ coming to DT from Calgary, more hotels of all sorts will be needed DT.

On that subject, I would just bet that if Raleigh did not have a NHL team, I am not sure a company from Calgary would even know where Raleigh is, let alone move their HQ here. I could be wrong.

[ncwebguy]

The fact that a Westin Hotel has at most tangentially spurred interest in other developments that were already in various stage is telling. And it is not an opinion -- it is a fact that the biggest thing is the only addition to the area is the trio of Crabtree restaurants.

I *don't* want to see a skeleton, which is why I *hope* there is ample financing to complete the project *or* it does not get past the current digging stage, or a "point of no return" where it is cost prohibitave for some other entitiy to enter and get the project to completion.

I *think* that behind the scenes, financing has been shored up. It is pure specalation on my part, which I base on the fact that things like "bedrock testing", "curtain wall engineering", and "salese center opening" have stopped holding back the project. And the evolution of the name of the project over the years, from GlenTree to Soleil Center to the emphasis on the Westin brand, the Reebok Fitness Center, the Heavenly Spa, and the "celebrity chef" restaurant.

The luck and/or smarts of the O&I 2 zoning has always been questionable, since the project initially called for a three to two room rennovation of the old structure and flagging it as a Westin hotel. Someone somewhere noticed the zoning and reshaped the project into the 40+ story glass behemoth, surroundings (including, but not limited to, the flood plain) be damned. Westin has been on board because they are going from "a pretty good hotel by regional mall, a few miles from the region's sports complex and art museum, five miles from a well-known steak house and international airport" to the current project. The Soleil Group saw something in the old Four Points shell, and should be rewarded.

I do not question the "Crabtree area" location, but do question the "low point near the Glenwood/Creedmoor intersection" location. In other posts I equally question *downtown* buildings like the old building at 301 Hillsborough Street, the old Convetion Center, the General Assembly building, etc. I think the former Ramada/current Crabtree Inn could have been just as visible, if not moreso. The tricky part is getting up the hill between 440 and Blue Ridge/North Hills (maybe it couldn't support a tall structure?) but it wouldn't be affected by flooding, and be a little further removed from the mall itself. I've even posted an idea of what I think could have been built there. Articles linked there support my funding idea, and covers the "exploit the zoning" vs. "build something great for the area" issue as well.

I do *not* like being told I should shut up about a subject because some drilling equipment is on site. I have never posted anything about hoping the Soleil group goes belly up, or wish ill of any of their projects, only concern over past performance. There has been, and never will be, "crying over spilled milk" on my part. The closest analogy would be *concern* as I watch someone buy five gallons of milk the day before the milk's expiration date. I *hope* they are doing it because they have a big party somewhere (that I'll never afford) where the five gallons get consumed and lead to buying more milk. But I am *concerned* they are buying the five gallons because soon-to-expire milk is cheap, and there is a buck to be made by repackaging the milk as something fresher in smaller sizes to unsuspecting buyers without any concern for spoiling the buyers and/or the greater milk market.

[orulz]

Well, this is certainly moving forward.. not sure if they're pouring the caissons yet, but there are bunches of huge rebar cages that will be inserted into the caissons prior to pouring are laying on site now.

[CHGuy]

The Soleil Center's building permit was approved today. http://onlinedevcenter.raleighnc.gov/devse...onNumber=194452. It should be issued to the contractor whenever they can pick it up. Their current work has been done under a foundation permit. When the foundation is complete, they can now go vertical.

[weiercd]

Any word on a date that we can see it start to go up? Maybe a timeline on when certain milestones have to be met?

[Gard]

Article this morning in the N&O on the prices of Soliel. According to the article, Soliel condos will be 800k and up, with some units having 200k rebates on them. I was also surprised they actually mentioned RBC Plaza and that all units are presold.

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/984944.html

[ChiefJoJo]

I was on the N&O's website, and saw an ad for the Soleil Center residences: located in "Uptown Raleigh." So, I guess they threw in the towel in the battle over the marketing of "midtown" to Kane/North Hills. I don't think anybody is going to start calling that area anything other than Crabtree any time soon.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I was on the N&O's website, and saw an ad for the Soleil Center residences: located in "Uptown Raleigh." So, I guess they threw in the towel in the battle over the marketing of "midtown" to Kane/North Hills. I don't think anybody is going to start calling that area anything other than Crabtree any time soon.

To many cities have mid-town, up-town, I personally prefer Crabtree and North Hills! Although, I Love my "downtown"!!!

[Captain Awesome]

I don't think anybody is going to start calling that area anything other than Crabtree any time soon.

We could compromise and call it Uptown Valley Mall - constituent of such cultural amenities as a unique little cheesecake place, a store that caters to Raleigh's bibliophiles and countless clothing 'boutiques'. All within walking distance of the Beltline!!

[sax184]

Uptown? I've never seen anything that looked town-esque out there at those two arterials. I'm sure we can come up with some improvements on "Uptown," which they're stealing from Charlotte anyhow.

Here's my contribution: "The Soleil Center...in UpSUBURB Raleigh!"

[RaleighRick]

Uptown? I've never seen anything that looked town-esque out there at those two arterials. I'm sure we can come up with some improvements on "Uptown," which they're stealing from Charlotte anyhow.

Most large cities in this country have a midtown and an uptown. Charlotte has no claims to the name "uptown". Charlotte's marketing gods decided that "uptown" sounded better than "downtown", thus uptown Charlotte was born. As for Raleigh, I would prefer we keep North Hills and Crabtree Valley and not try to be like every other city. These areas are uniquely Raleigh, as is Cameron Village. But really, it doesn't matter what we call them. I just hope once they are developed they become assets to Raleigh and add to the cities character.

[Gard]

"Uptown," which they're stealing from Charlotte anyhow.

Uptown is a term used in a lot of cities. Ever heard of the song "Uptown Girl" by Billy Joel? That came out LONG ( at the very minimum 15 years) before Charlotte even started using the term.

[dmccall]

Ummm. In most cities the water flows from North to South; so does the sewage. Because of this it was more desirable to live north of the city center, so "town" was down from where people migrated. Charlotte is one of the few cities in America that had a wealthy flight south of "town". Roanoke, VA also did this.

Why doesn't Soleil embrace the valley and use some pitch like "Live high where the valley is low".

[cophead567]

I always thought that Crabtree Mall and the surrounding area, Soleil, the hotels, the future condo towers, kidd's hill stuff (forgot the names of the dev) would eventually just be referred as "Crabtree".

I've heard people on a few occasions outside of Raleigh, mostly at the beach, say something like "I really like shopping at Raleigh's Crabtree". I've caught myself saying simply "Let's go to crabtree". OK, only a few examples but I still think the term will refer to that whole area, because there are shops outside the mall, best buy, B&N, etc. with more coming. It is becoming a district, well more like a destination rather then just another mall.

I think the term up or midtown will never catch on. I think the "crabtree" term has settled into the Raleigh culture and strong marketing will never replace it with something generic like "Uptown Raleigh". Same thinking with North Hills.

[ecology]

Most large cities in this country have a midtown and an uptown. Charlotte has no claims to the name "uptown". Charlotte's marketing gods decided that "uptown" sounded better than "downtown", thus uptown Charlotte was born. As for Raleigh, I would prefer we keep North Hills and Crabtree Valley and not try to be like every other city. These areas are uniquely Raleigh, as is Cameron Village. But really, it doesn't matter what we call them. I just hope once they are developed they become assets to Raleigh and add to the cities character.

The next-up neighborhood

News & Observer, The (Raleigh, NC)

Editorial/Opinion A11

Bruce Mamel

Published: January 17, 2006

RALEIGH--Raleigh has a Downtown, and recently the Chamber of Commerce discovered "Midtown" in the quadrant of Creedmoor Road to the west, Millbrook to the north, Capital Boulevard to the east and Wade Avenue to the south. Considering the frenzy to grab labels and thus "brand" a person, place or thing for marketing purposes, I want claim my part of the city as "Uptown." ...

Moderator's note: We don't allow cutting and pasting of news articles. Please refer to the rules. I would suggest linking to the article, providing snippets and commentary.