Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[Captain Awesome]

Ummm. In most cities the water flows from North to South; so does the sewage. Because of this it was more desirable to live north of the city center, so "town" was down from where people migrated. Charlotte is one of the few cities in America that had a wealthy flight south of "town". Roanoke, VA also did this.

Why doesn't Soleil embrace the valley and use some pitch like "Live high where the valley is low".

I'm sure they are trying to downplay the whole "Living in a floodplain" aspect of the project.

[Jones_]

The next-up neighborhood

News & Observer, The (Raleigh, NC)

Editorial/Opinion A11

Bruce Mamel

Published: January 17, 2006

RALEIGH--Raleigh has a Downtown, and recently the Chamber of Commerce discovered "Midtown" in the quadrant of Creedmoor Road to the west, Millbrook to the north, Capital Boulevard to the east and Wade Avenue to the south. Considering the frenzy to grab labels and thus "brand" a person, place or thing for marketing purposes, I want claim my part of the city as "Uptown." ...

Moderator's note: We don't allow cutting and pasting of news articles. Please refer to the rules. I would suggest linking to the article, providing snippets and commentary.

This reminds me of the Satirewire Axis of Evil bit....Everyone rushing around trying to grab the best label still available.

"Crabtree" has been the simple moniker on the street and in the subdivisions for the 20 years I have lived here. I agree, that since there is no "town" whatsoever to be found here that "uptown" is a joke. How about "huge-buildings-slammed-together-with few roads-no transit alternatives-and occasionally-floods town"?

[ncwebguy]

The up/mid/downtown designation concept is most applicable/identifiable on the island of Manhattan. Billy Joel's Uptown Girl comes from this, and was released in 1983. Wikipedia says the Charlotte Observer started using "Uptown Charlotte" in 1987, though other medida/boosters had started in the late 70s/early 80s as a way to be more "upbeat" about the area, since "downtown" sounded downtrodden and was empty outside the bank offices. I went to school at First Ward in the early 80s and lived near Matthews, so it was all uptown for me.

Uptown lends an air of ritziness, which is why I never understood the desire to brand it midtown to begin with... I do think Crabtree and North Hills should win out over uptown/midtown, but the latter names will be shoved down our throats. Even though Crabtree is more of a "westtown" than an "uptown" geographically. And Raleigh ceded "south town" to Garner decades ago, pushing north instead.

Of course Joel Lane messed it all up by having land nowhere near a river, and Isaac Hunter's tavern nearby to help seal the deal. Even if the city was based on the Neuse, it would make some sense.

Maybe North Raleigh can split from ITB Raleigh, and make North Hills "midtown" and Crabtree/Soleil "downtown" or the "uptown floodplain". They are as close as what passes for "town" in North Raleigh, and "parking lots" for the rest of the Urban Planet.

Is there any movement on Soleil II, the office component, lately?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I was on the N&O's website, and saw an ad for the Soleil Center residences: located in "Uptown Raleigh." So, I guess they threw in the towel in the battle over the marketing of "midtown" to Kane/North Hills. I don't think anybody is going to start calling that area anything other than Crabtree any time soon.

Not to get off of topic to much, but I love the song "Downtown" originally written by Tony Hatch. It's one of my favorites and really catches my feeling for the place,(Downtown Raleigh, my home sweet home!).

[plus2]

I personally prefer the lables "North Hills" and "Crabtree" than midtown and uptown. North Hills and Crabtree are specific to Raleigh, where uptown could be Anywhere, USA.

[ERJ170]

I agree.. Raleigh is very distinct in it's neighborhoods:

Crabtree

North Hills

5 Points

Briar Creek

North Raleigh

Downtown

Poole (Rd)

South Raleigh (NCSU area)

or at least that's how I refer to them..

[NCSpazz]

I always thought the NCSU area was West Raleigh with South Raleigh beginning east of Lake Wheeler Rd?

[RALNATIVE]

I agree.. Raleigh is very distinct in it's neighborhoods:

Crabtree

North Hills

5 Points

Briar Creek

North Raleigh

Downtown

Poole (Rd)

South Raleigh (NCSU area)

or at least that's how I refer to them..

you forgot Wakefield.

[Jones_]

you forgot Wakefield.

pretty forgettable....

I wonder how they would react to say having a huge mall and 43 story building sqeezed between them and the Neuse River say.....that is about what Brookhaven has dealt with....

other than doing the Crabtree blvd/US 70 split highway, I wonder how streets could be reorganized, or built anew to get something of a walkable (out in the sunlight that is, not in the mall) town district. Would lifting Glenwood up onto a viaduct from Ragazis to 440 for get-out-of-Dodge traffic help anything I wonder?

[RALNATIVE]

pretty forgettable....

I wonder how they would react to say having a huge mall and 43 story building sqeezed between them and the Neuse River say.....that is about what Brookhaven has dealt with....

other than doing the Crabtree blvd/US 70 split highway, I wonder how streets could be reorganized, or built anew to get something of a walkable (out in the sunlight that is, not in the mall) town district. Would lifting Glenwood up onto a viaduct from Ragazis to 440 for get-out-of-Dodge traffic help anything I wonder?

sometimes I have a hard time getting the point of some of your posts, but maybe that's just me.

[ncwebguy]

With Wakefield, there's no "there" there. The movie theater/Kroger and Kerr Drugs/grocery store strip malls don't lend a sense of place to the area. If they wanted to do it right, they could have made a "village center" similar to Pinehurst, with a walkable area of botiques and restaurants -- even if the restaurants were Panera, Outback Steakhouse and Chilli's, it would still be something. Offices, apartments, and/or condos could rise a couple of stories above that, with North Hills-like hidden parking a short walk away. That could have easily fit in along Capitol Blvd or Falls of Neuse. But instead there is "cheap apartments near US 1, nicer apartments/cheaper houses as a buffer, then townhouses, then estate houses, then golf course going west to east from Capitol to Falls.

The same thing applies, to a lesser extent, to the Crabtree area. The mall, Kidds Hill, Crabtree Village (or whatever name the former Steak and Ale, Pizza Hut, Brendels, and Food Lion is going by today), and Soleil do provide a combined "there", but the "dots" are quite unconnected. Soleil unconnected itself by putting itself on a seven story parking garage pedestal. Kidds Hill to Crabtree to former Brendels are unconnected as well.

There was a plan to "double deck" Glenwood past Crabtree, though 540, Milbrook, and Lynn Road have pulled some of the "through" traffic elsewhere. At the Ragazzi's dropoff, there could be the high road, with connections only to Creedmoor, Edwards Mill, 440, and ITB Glenwood. The current "low" road would serve local traffic. The "high" road could even have a transit stop so the tracks wouldn't have to take up valuable space on the ground. Escalators would dump passangers on Crabtree's Glenwood side and could connect to a NC museum of art (RBC Center for game days)/Edwards Mill/Creedmoor bus circulator.

This would be too expensive to pull off, but would help the area a lot. Though the daylight lost to the "high road" would be an issue, Crabtree Creek could become a focus from Soleil to 440.

Back on topic, I haven't been through there in weeks. The last time I was through i saw the siding going up on the Crabtree Deck restaurants and a lot of cranes still digging/installing anchors for the parking deck/tower. Has anyone taken pictures, or is it unchanged from October pictures? Has the cold, dry weather held things up?

Is the "six figure rebate" really fooling anyone? It is a price drop due to less than expected demand, the mortgage/credit crunch, and slowly souring economy. The Westin is the anchor, and selling half the condos is a good acheivement in a totally new market. But who is the N&O ad buy targeted to? Any local with the slightest interest already knows about the project and that construction crews are digging in the dirt.

[Jones_]

sometimes I have a hard time getting the point of some of your posts, but maybe that's just me.

I think I am normally pretty clear.

You mentioned "Wakefield" being left off the list of notable districts in Raleigh that ERJ170 listed. I unapologetically said "forgettable" in response because 1) Wakefield is new, its not a legacy neighborhood at all, 2) its unremarkable in its design, or vision or relation to the rest of the City, in fact 3) its a drag on the City...the swath of undeveloped land between it and the City proper isolate it and cause it to drain City resources disproportionately. If Wakefield is an shining beacon that simply can't be left off a list of defining neighborhoods its time for me to move.

Second paragraph I was trying to bring my snide comment back on subject a little and since we have talked up to some degree how Soleil really does not deserve to be what earns the "Crabtree" area the moniker of Midtown, Uptown or any other honorable "town" label, I thought that taking a look at how the happy isolated folks in Wakefield would like a mall and tower next door. Seems very incongruous there. I think it is also in Crabtree. Putting Soleil next to forgettable Wakefield presents a starkness I thought usefull in looking back at the Crabtree area. The unstated thought I had was, being so far north maybe Wakefield could be "uptown" with a mall and tower next door. Maybe then I would think the area notable in a positive sense, but that thought was, again, separate.

In my next paragraph, I was trying to lose the snideness entirely (and be more on topic still) by just looking at making the Crabtree area worthy of "midtown", "uptown" or otherwise in response to Transitmans earlier post.

If my posts are that jumpy and irritating by all means let me know. In this case though, I really just didn't have alot of time to write, and had to respond to any insinuation that Wakefield somehow respresented the "mentionable" aspects of my beloved Raleigh.

[ericurbanite]

sometimes I have a hard time getting the point of some of your posts, but maybe that's just me.

I have to agree with you as well RALNATIVE its not just you!

Yea Wakefield isnt urban blah blah and is certainly typical of suburbia, but it is still a notable district of Raleigh.

[ChiefJoJo]

Um, yeah. Enough rambling. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted.

[Jones_]

I have to agree with you as well RALNATIVE its not just you!

Yea Wakefield isnt urban blah blah and is certainly typical of suburbia, but it is still a notable district of Raleigh.

The point was that Soleil (and the mall) simply aren't enough to earn the Crabtree area the title of Midtown or Uptown. Wakefield presented a nice chance to make that an analogous point, It caught my eye because I think its funny to think of Wakefield as "notable". Its a subdivision on steroids. There's the logic train for you guys. I don't have time to rewrite all 1600 posts for you though but am happy to clarify anything else on UP you are having trouble with.

[dmccall]

The point was that Soleil (and the mall) simply aren't enough to earn the Crabtree area the title of Midtown or Uptown. Wakefield presented a nice chance to make that an analogous point, It caught my eye because I think its funny to think of Wakefield as "notable". Its a subdivision on steroids. There's the logic train for you guys. I don't have time to rewrite all 1600 posts for you though but am happy to clarify anything else on UP you are having trouble with.

I follow you , Jones. BTW, given your knowledge of Raleigh Hx, I am thinking that the 133 in your handle is your age

[phoenixnc]

Is it true that the Soliel Group decided NOT to include a pedestrian bridge across Creedmoor to the mall? I thought I saw it somewhere on here, maybe the North Hills East thread, but i can't remember.

I cannot imagine that people will walk to the mall now, although I'm not sure they would anyway.

Still no construction seems to be starting (I went by there today), what exactly is going on?

[DPK]

Is it true that the Soliel Group decided NOT to include a pedestrian bridge across Creedmoor to the mall? I thought I saw it somewhere on here, maybe the North Hills East thread, but i can't remember.

I cannot imagine that people will walk to the mall now, although I'm not sure they would anyway.

Still no construction seems to be starting (I went by there today), what exactly is going on?

You saw that in the Fayetteville Street topic where I had posted about Dan coming to a class I'm taking to speak to us on development downtown. For some reason someone in our class asked a question that sent Dan on a tangent about Crabtree and Soleil. Dan spent a lot of work trying to get a pedestrian bridge approved from SG, but SG ultimately decided not to go with it at this point in time.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Is it true that the Soliel Group decided NOT to include a pedestrian bridge across Creedmoor to the mall? I thought I saw it somewhere on here, maybe the North Hills East thread, but i can't remember.

I cannot imagine that people will walk to the mall now, although I'm not sure they would anyway.

Still no construction seems to be starting (I went by there today), what exactly is going on?

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. I guess our economy right now might have something to do with it. It has been a long time since this thing was first announced though. Anyone with some news on the progress of this thing?

[pack-man]

not looking good for soleil. i don't think that it ever did look good for them.

[jlblaes]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. I guess our economy right now might have something to do with it. It has been a long time since this thing was first announced though. Anyone with some news on the progress of this thing?

I drive by their almost every week day. My daughter likes looking at construction and the site is still active. It looks like all of the large, cyclindrical rebar cages have been placed in the ground. Concrete is now visible at ground level which leads me to believe that much of the foundation work is done. Whether anything gets added on top of it, I don't know.

I had heard things like huge discounts and other not so good signs but the construction, up on til this point seems to be moving along.

JB

[Tayfromcarolina]

I'm beginning to think that aside from the mall everthing at that parcel and the adjoining mall parcel is doomed. Soleil is questionable, and the kidds hill site which has had to possibility to be several diffirent projects over the last decade and every single one has fallen through, meanwhile other areas of the city has sprouted up and flourished. Yeah, definitely cursed.

[Mid South NC]

I drive by their almost every week day. My daughter likes looking at construction and the site is still active. It looks like all of the large, cyclindrical rebar cages have been placed in the ground. Concrete is now visible at ground level which leads me to believe that much of the foundation work is done. Whether anything gets added on top of it, I don't know.

I had heard things like huge discounts and other not so good signs but the construction, up on til this point seems to be moving along.

JB

I am a long time browser on u.p., and I may need to be corrected.

But it seems to me, that there was a poster some time ago who was in charge of the project for the Soleil group or he was a contractor.?????

Either way my memory may be failing me, so if I'm wrong please exuse me.

But if I'm right maybe he could be contacted, or see this post and give us an accurate update.

This type of uncertainty could not be good for sales or for retaining the Westin Brand!

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I drive by there every day and it appears that all work has ceased? Maybe they are awaiting the crane even as we type...?

[Jones_]

I am a long time browser on u.p., and I may need to be corrected.

But it seems to me, that there was a poster some time ago who was in charge of the project for the Soleil group or he was a contractor.?????

Either way my memory may be failing me, so if I'm wrong please exuse me.

But if I'm right maybe he could be contacted, or see this post and give us an accurate update.

This type of uncertainty could not be good for sales or for retaining the Westin Brand!

That was Dicky Walia himself!