Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[RALNATIVE]

The promise of expensive homes generating more tax revenue is empty when that revenue is tied to parking decks (NHE) or stormwater improvements (Soleil).

It's not a promise, it's a reality.

[RALNATIVE]

So would that mean another 10% to go to start construction? How many would that equate to?

Since there are 49 units, that would equate to 19.6 units already sold.

[ncwebguy]

It's not a promise, it's a reality.

When the extra taxes from increased property values are diverted from the city/county coffers to pay a $75 million private loan to pay for a parking deck or other future TIFs, they are not a reality. They are an accounting trick that puts public tax dollars into private developers' hands.

[RALNATIVE]

When the extra taxes from increased property values are diverted from the city/county coffers to pay a $75 million private loan to pay for a parking deck or other future TIFs, they are not a reality. They are an accounting trick that puts public tax dollars into private developers' hands.

but if this happens, which is currently heavily debated, it will definitely be an exception, not a rule. For a city of Raleigh's size, I can almost guarantee that they receive much more in property tax revenue than comparable cities, simply because of the greater ratio of higher end homes vs. more modestly priced homes. Having said that, i'm sure that the city would not even be considering this if this was something that they felt like they couldn't afford.

My sentiment is, if my tax dollars are going towards something (anything) that will contribute to the overall improvement and economic health of our area, then it is money well spent. If the city can afford the $75 million, then they should do it IMO.

[RALNATIVE]

When the extra taxes from increased property values are diverted from the city/county coffers to pay a $75 million private loan to pay for a parking deck or other future TIFs, they are not a reality. They are an accounting trick that puts public tax dollars into private developers' hands.

What I find very interesting is how so many people can get so heated and spend so much time debating stuff like this, when so many of their federal tax dollars are going towards things that really don't contribute ANYTHING to their lives or even to this country.

[vitaviatic]

When the extra taxes from increased property values are diverted from the city/county coffers to pay a $75 million private loan to pay for a parking deck or other future TIFs, they are not a reality. They are an accounting trick that puts public tax dollars into private developers' hands.

Agreed. That's why I don't like to see TIFs used for private projects. Of the "public/private" variety I don't have as much of a qualm with, provided the benefits are earmarked in advance, and the public gets a net return on their investment (at least to the level they put into it -- which frankly, rarely happens). To fund a public service (as we have proposed over on the TTA blog), at least the citizen at-large gets a benefit from it whether it is monetary or not.

What I find very interesting is how so many people can get so heated and spend so much time debating stuff like this, when so many of their federal tax dollars are going towards things that really don't contribute ANYTHING to their lives or even to this country.

I saw the number a few years ago, so I don't remember the exact percentage. Something like 60% of the federal budget goes to debt service, so they can write more bonds, then the lion's share of those funds go to the Pentagon. And you're right -- nobody cares, mainly because they don't understand how the system works. Most people can't even tell you where, and from whom money comes. But I can understand why people boil over the topic. Quite a few scams have been perpetrated through TIFs (although by the time it hits the press, it is usually scaled down to a "whoops!" since most politicians will never admit to being part of a TIF debacle.

Again, I don't think Soleil's schedule is tied to the sales of condos. Now there may be a tipping point at which they may have enough of an investment from condo owners to front the startup construction capital (and maybe speeding it up in that way), but unless the Soleil Group came to the table "naked", with no upfront capital at all, then I would be hard-pressed to think that they would delay construction based on condo (non)sales. The meter started to run once the old Sheraton came down, and they would lose too much valuable revenue from the hotel by doing that. I may be wrong, but the numbers I posted earlier (in one of my notorious, earlier "Berlin Wall" postings) tell me a different story. In fact, I would be a little suspicious if they actually needed the condos sold in order to do the deal.

[Jones_]

Agreed. That's why I don't like to see TIFs used for private projects. Of the "public/private" variety I don't have as much of a qualm with, provided the benefits are earmarked in advance, and the public gets a net return on their investment (at least to the level they put into it -- which frankly, rarely happens). To fund a public service (as we have proposed over on the TTA blog), at least the citizen at-large gets a benefit from it whether it is monetary or not.

I saw the number a few years ago, so I don't remember the exact percentage. Something like 60% of the federal budget goes to debt service, so they can write more bonds, then the lion's share of those funds go to the Pentagon. And you're right -- nobody cares, mainly because they don't understand how the system works. Most people can't even tell you where, and from whom money comes. But I can understand why people boil over the topic. Quite a few scams have been perpetrated through TIFs (although by the time it hits the press, it is usually scaled down to a "whoops!" since most politicians will never admit to being part of a TIF debacle.

Again, I don't think Soleil's schedule is tied to the sales of condos. Now there may be a tipping point at which they may have enough of an investment from condo owners to front the startup construction capital (and maybe speeding it up in that way), but unless the Soleil Group came to the table "naked", with no upfront capital at all, then I would be hard-pressed to think that they would delay construction based on condo (non)sales. The meter started to run once the old Sheraton came down, and they would lose too much valuable revenue from the hotel by doing that. I may be wrong, but the numbers I posted earlier (in one of my notorious, earlier "Berlin Wall" postings) tell me a different story. In fact, I would be a little suspicious if they actually needed the condos sold in order to do the deal.

Not an expert but I agree, whatever secured the Hotel portion of the financing should be enough to build the whole thing. I have no background in business plans but I would probably show having to eat the entire costs of the condos as the breakeven point with conservative hotel and office occupancy. They obviously have substantial cash and income from other properties and I imagine the condos are cash gravy as they are sold off.

[DPK]

If the state finds none of this appealing then they have a handful of choices: 1) fill in the mall area around the State Government Complex; 2) tear down some of the cheaper, less monstrous edifices occupying state land, such as the Governor's Mansion; or 3) fill in Moore and Nash Squares (yes folks, they belong to the state, not the city -- which is a big reason why two of the original squares were destroyed, the Governor's Mansion sitting on one of them). The fourth and final option is the reason the city's pleading for Dix Hill to become a city park is being balked at so fervently by the state gov. Dix is the present-day relief valve for the state's overflow. If Dix does become a Raleigh city park, that option goes off the table, and Reedy Creek goes into the crosshairs.

Moore Square is not going away any time in the near future. There are too many public events held in that square, some of which are held by Raleigh museums. The amount of public outcry over development on that piece of land would squash anything proposed for it. I for one would be at the front of the picket line. That's where Raleigh's beer festival is every year, lol.

[Gard]

Moore Square is not going away any time in the near future. There are too many public events held in that square, some of which are held by Raleigh museums. The amount of public outcry over development on that piece of land would squash anything proposed for it. I for one would be at the front of the picket line. That's where Raleigh's beer festival is every year, lol.

I agree. I doubt either of the remaining squares will go anywheres. I also think that the state would look at the fact that they have already deystroyed two of the 4 squares and would want to preserve something. I also believe that in addition to the public outcry, the city would most likely get involved somehow, probably by trying to buy the squares and there could be outcry from the developers who built around it and use it as a selling point for their condos, etc.

[Jones_]

Straying a little off topic, but if anything there is talk of making Caswell mostly park again, leaving only the 1898 dormitory and its historic label in place. The Broom and Matress factory building is obviously being left to rot....too bad its also a relic from the School of Deaf and Blind c. 1898.

[vitaviatic]

Moore Square is not going away any time in the near future. There are too many public events held in that square, some of which are held by Raleigh museums. The amount of public outcry over development on that piece of land would squash anything proposed for it. I for one would be at the front of the picket line. That's where Raleigh's beer festival is every year, lol.

I was being sarcastic. Of course they aren't going to develop Moore or Nash Squares. But I used a bit of hyperbole to describe the land pinch the state is in downtown for future office development. It doesn't make sense to build downtown anymore at current land prices, so to illustrate why Blue Ridge Rd. could go into play sooner than people realize. I'd pitch in for a wrecking ball for the Governor's Mansion too if anyone was stupid enough to exercise those options for the remaining Squares.

[ChiefJoJo]

Please let's bring this back on topic please.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I have noticed that they have there four to five feet of dirt and crushed rock now sitting and waiting for somthing to be built on top. Does this soil/rock have to sit for a certain amount of time before things to begin?

[Cary NC]

I have noticed that they have there four to five feet of dirt and crushed rock now sitting and waiting for somthing to be built on top. Does this soil/rock have to sit for a certain amount of time before things to begin?

I believe the final height of the dirt will be 4 feet. Here is the article where the developer mentions what he is trying to accomplish.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1599462/

Should see some concrete showing up soon.

[dmccall]

I believe the final height of the dirt will be 4 feet.

That's outlandish. That part of town should have, more like, 2 feet of dirt.

[ncwebguy]

It is sad that the "icing on the cake" provided by the condos was enough to scrap the "3 to 2" room conversion initially proposed for Glen-tree by Soleil. I don't know the particulars of the Westin deal, but it seems Westin's piece of the pie -- via either a percentage of gross revenue, a franchising fee, or somethign else -- makes the condo portion more than just "icing". Did Westin approach the Soleil group or vice versa? I found an old article/press release from Westin about their new hotel near Crabtree going the rennovation route.

If they stuck to the 3 to 2 conversion plan, the Triangle/Raleigh/Crabtree area might have had a four star Westin hotel by now. The service jobs would be created and the hotel and meal tax dollars would be rolling in. Instead, we've got rocks, some drawings, some ads, and a promise.

The land should be built up at least as much as the Borders/Staples/Costco area near Six Forks/Wake Forest intersection. I don't know how many feet that was, but I'd guess closer to 4 than 2. Though the supports for a 40+ story building will go through that and then some, all the way to the uneven bedrock. Maybe they should have had a "ground raising" instead of "ground breaking" ceremony where Meeker, Walia, and company shovel dirt *onto* the construction site?

Getting a return on a TIF investment isn't reason enough to hand them out like candy. If so, the vast majority of new construction would be "tax generating (eventually) North Hills-type developments, making the city even more expensive to live in.

[Jones_]

^^been reading up on foundation depth....of course varys alot by conditions and building design...Petronas Towers have 394 ft deep piles. Other big towers (1000 ft tall) around around 200ft.....not very knowledgable but Soleil might be in the 50-100 ft deep range.

[serapis]

When is this thing going to start constuction already?

[DickyWalia]

^^been reading up on foundation depth....of course varys alot by conditions and building design...Petronas Towers have 394 ft deep piles. Other big towers (1000 ft tall) around around 200ft.....not very knowledgable but Soleil might be in the 50-100 ft deep range.

At the Soleil Center we will drive Caissons that will range in depth from 30 ft to 90 ft. (some socketed) Interestingly Thorton Tomasetti who are our structural engineers also designed the structure for Petronas.

CONSTRUCTION UPDATE

The City of Raleigh will issue building permits in three stages. The first permit for grading was issued last week of June. We have finished our grading. The site as it sits is at 229'. We have raised the site to 236.5'. We will at the tail end of our project ramp up from the traffic light at Creedmoor to the site. First habitable floor that will house parking will be at 251.5'. First six floors of the Tower section are parking.

Today we received our Caisson and Foundation permit. The Caisson sub has been mobilised and requested to proceed. Foundation work will begin this coming Monday. The schedule for foundations will take us to the end of December.

Final permitting for the super structure is now set for the last week in September.

[Cary NC]

At the Soleil Center we will drive Caissons that will range in depth from 30 ft to 90 ft. (some socketed) Interestingly Thorton Tomasetti who are our structural engineers also designed the structure for Petronas.

CONSTRUCTION UPDATE

The City of Raleigh will issue building permits in three stages. The first permit for grading was issued last week of June. We have finished our grading. The site as it sits is at 229'. We have raised the site to 236.5'. We will at the tail end of our project ramp up from the traffic light at Creedmoor to the site. First habitable floor that will house parking will be at 251.5'. First six floors of the Tower section are parking.

Today we received our Caisson and Foundation permit. The Caisson sub has been mobilised and requested to proceed. Foundation work will begin this coming Monday. The schedule for foundations will take us to the end of December.

Final permitting for the super structure is now set for the last week in September.

Thanks for the update from an actual source on the project and can't wait to see this thing rise into the sky.

[ChiefJoJo]

Mr. Walia, thanks for taking the time to update us on the prgoress. It's much appreciated.

[ncwebguy]

Pics or it didn't happen! It will be hard to see much of anything from Glenwood or Creedmoor until the holidays, but at least shoppers will see a lot of activity over there.

A webcam for the foundation might not be interesting to most, but I think it could be cool.

If not, we'll wait for the steel to start going up.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

A webcam for the foundation might not be interesting to most, but I think it could be cool.

If not, we'll wait for the steel to start going up.

I for one would love to have a webcam added, I have several developements/webcams up at my desk everyday that I keep an eye on!

[architect77]

Pics or it didn't happen! It will be hard to see much of anything from Glenwood or Creedmoor until the holidays, but at least shoppers will see a lot of activity over there.

A webcam for the foundation might not be interesting to most, but I think it could be cool.

If not, we'll wait for the steel to start going up.

will this tower be steel-framed or cast-in-place concrete?

and for everyone concerned about its foundation-look at how they're stabilizing the new oakland bay bridge in silt...

http://www.newbaybridge.org/

[serapis]

One of my inside sources, that is closely related to the project, says that Soleil is actually in the process of trying to sell this project to another developer. She's quite a reliable source so far as development in that particular area. She also said that even though we're this close to the construction stage. that she doubts this project will take physical shape. This is the same person who told me about the Kids Hill development a year before it was publicly shown to fall through. However have some hope, because this is still just speculation...