Va. Beach Town Center project 2

[vdogg]

[Padman]

Actually here in Portland that will happen two times over in my lifetime. The Lloyd District just outside of downtown has the ability to expand much larger than downtown in space, but that one still remains to be seen. The big one however is very much east of downtown where the 205, 84, and three light rail lines come together is an area dubbed the Gateway District. While currently it looks nothing like its future, over time it is an area that will surpass downtown Portland in every level and bring Portland to the next level of city.

For Hampton Roads, that is what the TC is doing for Virginia Beach. The saying goes "if VB is the biggest city in Virginia, then it should act like it." Basically you are starting to see VB act like it and much of downtown present day norfolk could fit inside the property of the pembroke mall, VB has the potential to grow much bigger than downtown norfolk simply because there is little history to destroy there and connectivity to much of the region is still very good right there.

Now, I did say VB is going to have a bigger downtown than norfolk, I said nothing of it being a prettier or more breathtaking than norfolk. Norfolk will always have the history and class of the metro. VB will have the shiny new metropolis of the region. But if the region is lucky, dense urban growth will spread between downtown norfolk, TC, and the oceanfront.

Interesting. I think that the Virginia Beach Blvd./I-264 corridor may eventually see enough continuous development that it could overtake Norfolk's downtown as an employent "center" and may have already done so, depending on how you measure it. But I don't see TC alone expanding to exceed downtown Norfolk in size. I'm not absolutely sure that it won't happen, but the geography and the economics suggest that the greatest future growth of southside may be west of Norfolk rather than east of it. We'll see. As always, it looks like we'll have several major employment centers, each with something unique to offer. But this pattern will be a challenge for transportation.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

This is interesting. I never knew they were thinking that ambitiously. Pembroke office park is gonna have to spruce up a little in order to be able to deserve a bridge in my book.

You took the words right out of my mouth haha . When I was younger I used to draw pictures of buildings I felt were "better suited" to those plots of land... If nothing else, some exterior renovations (and subsequent removal of the CNU-Blue color scheme) would be nice. I actually wouldn't mind it if they adopted the color of Columbus 1 - I think the brown stone look, mixed with darker granite would be a nice contrast, plus some enhancements to the greenery and curb appeal.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Ah, also worthy of note... although Virginia Beach may never "surpass" Norfolk as the generally-regarded center of Hampton Roads, there are many examples of cities with prominent suburbs, or pairs of cities (the Twin Cities, Dallas-Fort Worth, DC-Northern Virgnia), or even groupings of cities not much unlike Hampton Roads (the Ruhr region of Germany, for example - with Cologne, Essen, Dortmund, Duisburg, and other cities in close proximity). I think there's room to grow PLENTY on either side of the Norfolk-VB line, however, I would argue that Virginia Beach has an edge in the amount of available land and in the layout of the city. Downtown Norfolk is bounded on most sides by either water or lower-density residential, whereas Virginia Beach's Pembroke area is bounded by a mall (eventually redevelopable) and a massive boulevard lined with opportunities - the derelict shopping centers. I think Virginia Beach has many options it can and should capitalize on in the future.

[urbanvb]

Also of worthy note.

A 129-foot bridge from Town Center

[Alpine757]

Also of worthy note.

It never ceases to amaze me just how expensive everything in construction can be. Hard to believe just a simple skywalk like this costs almost a couple million dollars to construct. It really puts into perspective the pricetag on huge towers & highrises, when something this minute in comparison is already a million plus.

[hoobo]

Looks like the the City has updated the TC page under Hot Topics at vbgov.com. It includes updated specs (over 3 million sqft built or under construction, mind boggling for VB), a pdf of ppt presentation on the Beacon Lot deal (now I get it, sort of), and an update to the site plan. That last one is interesting. The Beacon Lot building will indeed have parking, and like some on here have mentioned, it will resemble Trader in that it is disguised. Also, I think Block 11 is gonna be like the planned Wachovia Center in Norfolk: office building with attached garage enveloped by retail and condos. Then there's the always mysterious Block 9.

[rusthebuss]

Just imagine if this was all at one location. Man we would have a nice size DT

[vdogg]

Looks like the the City has updated the TC page under Hot Topics at vbgov.com. It includes updated specs (over 3 million sqft built or under construction, mind boggling for VB), a pdf of ppt presentation on the Beacon Lot deal (now I get it, sort of), and an update to the site plan. That last one is interesting. The Beacon Lot building will indeed have parking, and like some on here have mentioned, it will resemble Trader in that it is disguised. Also, I think Block 11 is gonna be like the planned Wachovia Center in Norfolk: office building with attached garage enveloped by retail and condos. Then there's the always mysterious Block 9.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to check this out and then post the most important stuff here.

[mistermetaj]

I have a friend who interned with armada hoffler this summer, and she brought up some interesting facts about town center. First off, the original design of the armada hoffler building had more angles and the shadowers were supposed to make a cool design on the building. However, they mis-estimated the building, so during the construction, they had to improvise to make the deadline and not get a stop work order, so they ended up building what we see today. The spire was always in the plans, but i made sure to ask. As for the westin, the 37 floor pent house is owned by non other than...yup, you guessed it, armada hoffler himself. Supposedly it's the size of three decent size houses. As for the new tower for the beacon lot, it is going to be similar to what the old armada hoffler tower was supposed to look like without a spire...though she did say the spire is the last thing they were going to design, so that could change. As for the lot behind the cosmo, she said that it is not going to be office building because the road was not made for that kind of car traffic, so they do not know what is going to be there yet. However, when I brought up the fact that they were extending constitution to bonny road, she wasnt aware of that, so Im not putting a whole lot of stock in her info about that lot.

[vdogg]

Which road isn't designed for that type of traffic? If she's talking about the interior road I would counter that by saying that The road that the beacon tower will be on is the same exact width. There are ways to design around the traffic situation, including splitting that block up a bit to allow for a different flow in traffic. I really don't want to see them scrap that tower. Plus, the development agreement specifically states that block 11 will be an office tower, so they'll have to go back to the city and change that if this is indeed the case.

[mistermetaj]

Which road isn't designed for that type of traffic? If she's talking about the interior road I would counter that by saying that The road that the beacon tower will be on is the same exact width. There are ways to design around the traffic situation, including splitting that block up a bit to allow for a different flow in traffic. I really don't want to see them scrap that tower. Plus, the development agreement specifically states that block 11 will be an office tower, so they'll have to go back to the city and change that if this is indeed the case.

I think she was talking about constitution, and like I said, she didn't seem aware that it was being extended to bonney road, so I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into what she said, especially if the website was just updated saying there would be office space. I wish she could have told me what was to come with the lot between the cosmo and westin, but I don't think she knew...maybe AH doesnt know either.

[metalman]

Did any notice this map on the VBgov-hot topics-towncenter link. It looks to be a newer conceptual map with an updated lot info on the pilot lot, the retail space listed at the Sandler center fronting Indi, and it shows a third pedestrain bridge connecting the yet-to-be-determined condos on block 9 to the cosmo apartments. Take a look...

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/mcg/...opment_plan.jpg

Metalman

...if it's old news, sorry.

[vdogg]

Did any notice this map on the VBgov-hot topics-towncenter link. It looks to be a newer conceptual map with an updated lot info on the pilot lot, the retail space listed at the Sandler center fronting Indi, and it shows a third pedestrain bridge connecting the yet-to-be-determined condos on block 9 to the cosmo apartments. Take a look...

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/mcg/...opment_plan.jpg

Metalman

...if it's old news, sorry.

Wow, actually that is very new news. I looked all over for an updated map but couldn't find one. Thanks, that's definitely interesting. Considering how new this map is mistermetaj, it appears that the office tower on block 11 is still in the works.

[vdogg]

Wow, I also just noticed that it has a "future development" site on that slither of land behind the PAC. I guess this confirms that there will be something to cover up that brick wall.

[vdogg]

Btw, block 9 is phase 4 which is probably why info of it wasn't included in the phase III modifications. It'll probably end up looking somewhat like the area at the bottom of this pic though.

[hoobo]

Did any notice this map on the VBgov-hot topics-towncenter link. It looks to be a newer conceptual map with an updated lot info on the pilot lot, the retail space listed at the Sandler center fronting Indi, and it shows a third pedestrain bridge connecting the yet-to-be-determined condos on block 9 to the cosmo apartments. Take a look...

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/mcg/...opment_plan.jpg

Metalman

...if it's old news, sorry.

Wow. I think they changed the map yet again. The one I saw a couple days earlier didn't have the third bridge, retail on the Beacon Tower or an updated schematic of the Westin. But from the looks of things, Block 11 looks like it will be a cross between the AH Tower and the Cosmo/Westin with a tower on one side and a parking garage surrounded by condos and shops. That appears in keeping with the original concept which was posted in the Block 11 thread (link). I wish they'd make more use of the larger blocks by incorporating one tall tower with a 10-story mid-rise or even a 5-story building on top of the garage to give it the appearance of more density. Something like the AH Tower block but with more distinct separation and execution.

Edited September 10, 2007 by hoobo

[urbanvb]

I wonder how the retail aspect is going for TC? I hope they are having a little more success.

[vdogg]

I wonder how the retail aspect is going for TC? I hope they are having a little more success.

Well, if you remember the article that came out on the Divaris site they were 88% leased and were starting preleasing for block 9. Sounds like they're doing pretty good to me.

[metalman]

A couple stories today in the pilot related to Town Center:

Beach parks official floats idea for creekside greenway

Thalia creek greenway proposal from Princess Anne HS to City View and possibly over I264 to Mt. Trashmore

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?...&ran=186353

New grocery stores not yet in the basket for Beach developments

Whole Foods, Wedgmans, Trader Joe's- Who will it be? Another Farmfresh "Market" perhaps

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?...3&ran=48729

Edited September 28, 2007 by metalman

[vdogg]

The grocery store one is more related to the landing than anything else, even though they don't mention it. The landing is the project that is currently trying to obtain a grocer in the Pembroke area. Honestly, after seeing what farm fresh is capable of at their downtown market, I really wouldn't mind them using that concept in the Pembroke area either.

[RJWGMU]

Good article on the need for a grocery store in Pembroke...

Here is my question for all who wish to answer:

I am a business student at GMU and have for YEARS wanted to open an Italian Specialty Store and figured Pembroke was my best bet. Now I am in a new venture class where my team is developing MY business idea into an "experience of Italy." I want to know what you think of the following idea, and I apologize if this is the wrong place for this discussion. I am excited to hear of "The Market" which Farm Fresh just launched in Norfolk and if they did something similar at Pembroke I must say I would probably welcome it and have to revise my own plans! Anyway, here we go:

Our vision for this store is to be an Italian market which has all of the features of a grocery store but with an Italian flare. The whole store would celebrate the culture and diversity of Italy and would feature gourmet meats and cheeses, imported specialties, a selection of groceries, and fine Italian wines from the different wine growing regions of Italy. It would also serve fresh deli sandwiches made to order from the deli, have a bakery specializing in Italian cakes, cookies, and pastries, would possibly include a full service butcher and seafood area, and have a coffee and gelato shop. The goal is to make this store an all day destination for residents of the area, commuters, and office workers alike.

In addition to the features mentioned above, outside patio seating would be available for patrons to sit outside as they drink their coffee, eat their sandwiches, or enjoy their fresh gelato. There may also possibly be some room in the store which would be used as indoor seating. The room would have either large windows or a large series of doors which could allow for it to be almost fully opened to the outside air for enjoying the weather from inside.

The entire store would be designed to make the patrons feel that they are in an Italian street market. There would be wooden columns which go up at different angles to hold up an old looking canvas which would seem like the only roof the market has. It would also have a stamped concrete floor made to look clean and classy but also somewhat aged and dirty, as if it were an outside paved walkway. The individual sections/departments would have their own look, but all would appear to be separate entities which happen to be all in the same market area.

Questions (if you want you can just message me with the responses):

1) Would you go there, and for what reasons (or not)?

2) Do the sandwich and pastry parts seem like a good idea?

3) Should we drop the groceries portion and stick to prepared foods and wines/cheeses?

Edited September 28, 2007 by RJWGMU

[urbanlife]

I have always felt that marshland should be used for an urban park throughtout the city. No urban area really works well without nature within walking distance. Plus something like that would be a selling point. Who wouldnt want to own a condo on the water with the VB skyline in the background, such an urban oasis.

I hope a grand plan happnens. 7 yo 10 million is not that much when you look at the big picture.

[metalman]

Stop the press! Big PDF of Town Center Past-Present-Future

First rendering of Pedestrian Bridge of Virgina Beach Blvd on page 22!!! This is going to make a statement.

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/mcg/...nter_092007.pdf

Enjoy

[RJWGMU]

Stop the press! Big PDF of Town Center Past-Present-Future

First rendering of Pedestrian Bridge of Virgina Beach Blvd on page 22!!! This is going to make a statement.

http://www.vbgov.com/file_source/dept/mcg/...nter_092007.pdf

Enjoy

Where did you find it?

I HATE that pedestrian bridge design. for one, it looks like a bridge for cars, secondly it is way too tall for what it is for, and thirdly, and probably most importantly, it does not look enclosed.

Edited October 5, 2007 by RJWGMU