Detroit Casino Megathread

[RustTown]

How are they defacing the old school house? I hadn't heard about that. Either way, it could have just as easily been demolished, so I'm glad they are utilizing it regardless of what they do to it.

BTW, I've seen plenty of retail establishments that effectively utilize their basement levels for retail or for restaurants.

I do agree, though, they really aren't adding much all things considered.

[Ramcharger]

Perhaps

[RustTown]

Most any renovation alter, these days, alters a building's historical integrity. I'm not sure I understand where the annoyance with the possible renovation of an historic building is coming from. I'm glad that they are going to be reusing the building instead of demolishing it.

I guess I could see someone being wary of Greektown seeing as how often their plans have changed, but as for the details, this seems to be a win for historic preservation, not something that needs to be dumped on.

[statedude3]

The parking garage block was a dead block before, in terms of foot traffic so its not like we will be losing anything. As great as it would have been to see retail there, it would have had a hard time surviving because it is not part of the main strip.

[wolverine]

Are the still doing that skywalk thing? I hope they don't scrape that thing against the side of the old school.

BTW, looking at Michi's pictures again, I was just thinking. At least parking won't be hard in the Greektown Ramp anymore. I always end up getting one of the last spaces at the top. I feared the day, I would have to go back down and hunt for some space dealing with traffic inside all over again. The circulation in there is nuts.

[RustTown]

I'm one of those lazy drivers when dealing with tall parking garages. I'm not going to go up any higher than the 6th floor of a garage for a parking space. lol I really do wonder when I see these garages how filled they are on any given day at their maximum, as I know a lot of people that won't even deal with them.

[wolverine]

^ Then what do you do if there are no spaces on the lower levels? It's not like you can just leave and go to another place. Many ramps have minimum payments. Unless you are talking about the ramps that show the available space #'s on the outside before you pull in.

I sure do hope the new ramp has express exits. I like the ones that allow you to get from level 7 to 1 in just a matter of seconds.

[detwaa84]

IMO, I wish they they would have just demolished St. Mary's. It just doesn't fit in Greektown today, mainly because it doesn't have street "level" retail. I think another entry to the casino would have been nice there. That's just me though, I'm very very selective in historic preservation. Buildings I agree(d) should be demo'd include Tiger S., Fort Shelby, Statler, and yes, the Madison-Lenox.

However, since that's not going to happen, do you think they will demolish the east side of the facade so they can put the new retail or will they build "next" to it, not attached?

[Zissou]

You think the Fort Shelby should be brought down? Despite the fact they have begun renovating it? Wow if that isnt a mistake typed right there I dont know what to think.

[RustTown]

IMO, I wish they they would have just demolished St. Mary's. It just doesn't fit in Greektown today, mainly because it doesn't have street "level" retail. I think another entry to the casino would have been nice there. That's just me though, I'm very very selective in historic preservation. Buildings I agree(d) should be demo'd include Tiger S., Fort Shelby, Statler, and yes, the Madison-Lenox.

However, since that's not going to happen, do you think they will demolish the east side of the facade so they can put the new retail or will they build "next" to it, not attached?

[detwaa84]

You think the Fort Shelby should be brought down? Despite the fact they have begun renovating it? Wow if that isnt a mistake typed right there I dont know what to think.

[RustTown]

I'm under the impression that they are going to reuse the building. BTW, if one is truly preservation-minded in the least bit, they should be disappointed any building capable of being renovated and resused is being demolished, rather they personally like the exterior design or not. I didn't much care for the Statler design as it was a dime-a-dozen, but it didn't make me any more angry to see them bring it down. And, one can't be preservation-minded and not care about the careless demolition of the Madison-Lenox. Regardless of rather you liked the architecture or not, it was one of the oldest structures still standing downtown. That, alone, makes the demolition angering.

[Jasoncw]

So you wish they would have bulldozed that instead of bulldozing a parking garage?

[tapezord]

I guess I have a question about the concept of retail within the greektown casino garage. Does anyone really think that this retail would be all that marketable? Its basically on a one way street that doesn't connect with the rest of the city...meaning its not a particularly walkable street. On the other side of the street (monroe) you have a church (the side door)and on the other side (macomb) you have a juvy hall. I am all for ground floor retail on garages built within a city block, but I am just not sure that retail is a great fit in this location. Perhaps they put some money into an escrow for getting a variance here that the City or DDA can use elsewhere.

Notice that I neglected to mention St. Antoine... I was assuming that the hotel would front this street (yes?).

And another question to the forum... parking garages, how high is too high?! I parked in a garage in Ann Arbor (its a relatively new, slender foot print garage) and it literally took me 10 minutes to get to the top of the thing and back down again (it was full)

[RustTown]

Yes, the hotel is fronting St. Antoine. I also agree with you about the lack of parking garage retail not really being a huge loss. And, considering it was only to have been 2,000 to 6,000 square feet, anyway, along Monroe, I couldn't imagine anything substantial ever going in any of those spots. We also forget to mention the wall that the freeway creates meaning if you'd get any substantial pedestrian acitivity, at all, it would probably only really come from the west reducing the potential success of any retail along Monroe. It's kind of why I was so disappointed to not seeing parking at the MGM Grand as it's walled in on two sides by freeways.

[wolverine]

IMO, I wish they they would have just demolished St. Mary's. It just doesn't fit in Greektown today, mainly because it doesn't have street "level" retail. I think another entry to the casino would have been nice there. That's just me though, I'm very very selective in historic preservation. Buildings I agree(d) should be demo'd include Tiger S., Fort Shelby, Statler, and yes, the Madison-Lenox.

However, since that's not going to happen, do you think they will demolish the east side of the facade so they can put the new retail or will they build "next" to it, not attached?

[wolverine]

I guess I have a question about the concept of retail within the greektown casino garage. Does anyone really think that this retail would be all that marketable? Its basically on a one way street that doesn't connect with the rest of the city...meaning its not a particularly walkable street. On the other side of the street (monroe) you have a church (the side door)and on the other side (macomb) you have a juvy hall. I am all for ground floor retail on garages built within a city block, but I am just not sure that retail is a great fit in this location. Perhaps they put some money into an escrow for getting a variance here that the City or DDA can use elsewhere.

Notice that I neglected to mention St. Antoine... I was assuming that the hotel would front this street (yes?).

And another question to the forum... parking garages, how high is too high?! I parked in a garage in Ann Arbor (its a relatively new, slender foot print garage) and it literally took me 10 minutes to get to the top of the thing and back down again (it was full)

[detwaa84]

I'm under the impression that they are going to reuse the building. BTW, if one is truly preservation-minded in the least bit, they should be disappointed any building capable of being renovated and resused is being demolished, rather they personally like the exterior design or not. I didn't much care for the Statler design as it was a dime-a-dozen, but it didn't make me any more angry to see them bring it down. And, one can't be preservation-minded and not care about the careless demolition of the Madison-Lenox. Regardless of rather you liked the architecture or not, it was one of the oldest structures still standing downtown. That, alone, makes the demolition angering.

[Jasoncw]

I think that some retail would do ok there. A lot of people walk and drive around in that area, and will see the stores. Plus, people go to Greektown to go to Greektown, so I think people stopping in a store is more likely in Greektown than, say Washington Boulevard.

[rbdetsport]

Yes, there was a plan for a boutique hotel that came out 3 months before demolition. Supposedly, Ilitch didn't see a future in the plan. I guess he didnt realize that the only future his new parking lot had was for the All Star Game and Superbowl. Although I heard that there have been multiple proposals submited to Olympia Development that they are looking into.

[detwaa84]

I'm surprised he installed fencing and plants there, unlike his other lots. I'd expect something to be built there fairly soon with the creation of the Paradise Valley District (if successfull). Lets just hope it's tall enough to cover those buildings behind it.

[Michi]

I guess I have a question about the concept of retail within the greektown casino garage. Does anyone really think that this retail would be all that marketable? Its basically on a one way street that doesn't connect with the rest of the city...meaning its not a particularly walkable street. On the other side of the street (monroe) you have a church (the side door)and on the other side (macomb) you have a juvy hall. I am all for ground floor retail on garages built within a city block, but I am just not sure that retail is a great fit in this location. Perhaps they put some money into an escrow for getting a variance here that the City or DDA can use elsewhere.

Notice that I neglected to mention St. Antoine... I was assuming that the hotel would front this street (yes?).

And another question to the forum... parking garages, how high is too high?! I parked in a garage in Ann Arbor (its a relatively new, slender foot print garage) and it literally took me 10 minutes to get to the top of the thing and back down again (it was full)

[Michi]

And to add a bit more enlightenment, historic preservation plays an incredible role in a city's economy, particularly tourism. Why is it so great to walk around the neighborhoods just north of the Chicago Loop? Typically, this area isn't a haven for tourists, but you will always see them there. Why? It's a wonderful environment in which to be. The sense of place (largely historic) is they type of place people are attracted to and want to be. Now, imagine if, for the sake of traffic functionality, 1/2 of that area was a neighborhood of parking garages. Why would anyone want to go there? They wouldn't.

Well, same with Detroit and any other city for that matter. I know it's apples and oranges, but sometimes when I think of all the stupid things Detroit does, I conjur up thoughts about what would Manhattan Island do in the same type of situation. When you think of it, it's not "that" far off into rediculousness since Manhattan has water as its "urban growth boundary" and Detroit has freeway ditches.

My bottom line is that downtown needs to stop destroying itself in the name of progress. Don't get me wrong, the good has outweighed the bad and the good is oftentimes beyond expectations in terms of quality. But, there are so many opportunities that seem to get surpassed simply because we have this notion that downtown within the freeway ring is the only opportunity to develop a downtown. It's not true. If that was the case, we can expect to see more and more super blocks, more streets blocked off, more buildings torn down, and more gigga-garages built. Why? Because of the Central Business Districts' unique layout.

Take the Rosa Parks Transit Center. There is a TON of available property adjacent to downtown that could accomodate such a large structure. I disagree that it has to be built at its current location. I don't particulary object to it, but I would rather see it go elsewhere so that yet another street doesn't have to all of a sudden dead end. The street in this case is State I believe, which when fully functioning, connects Woodward and Cass Avenues...the ONLY two streets that unobstructively connect the lower downtown all the way up into New Center. Every other street, including John R. either dead ends or is plowed over by a freeway.

Look at these two maps of two different downtowns and how their freeways interact with the street grid and I will shut up!

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT-Sta...oit_64063_7.pdf

http://www.stcl.edu/01welcome/2003Downtown_Houston_map.gif

[tapezord]

you're so on point its not even funny... how does one respond to that?! Great posts.

[RustTown]

Michi,

Can the damage be undone in a significant enough way, though, with the freeways still in existence? I'm having a real hard time of seeing how to tie in the areas around downtown if the freeways are continued to exist relatively unchanged. I see some of your ideas, but I'm skeptical that anything short of caping or uprooting a lot of the loop around downtown can really tie the neighborhoods back into downtown.