Detroit Casino Megathread

[Jasoncw]

I like how the Book Cadillac is marked as being a park. Not very optimistic!

I think it would be cool if 375 (and as many other freeways as practical) would just get demolished and filled in.

Can someone who knows more than me tell me, are they needed? Are they needed because people think they're needed? Are they not needed?

All I know is that you don't need to pay for highways that don't exist.

I agree with your posts Michi, but I know that if I was a developer, I would rather go somewhere other than by the freeway.

[Michi]

^ Developer of what though? It depends on the land use. Isn't it ironic that people were quick to get over the demolition of the Motown Building because they thought, "yah, let it be demolished...who would want to live right up to a noisy freeway anyway?" when a few months later, the Garden Lofts are built with the same principal in mind, just on the opposite side of Woodward?

What's going to go in the place of the Motown Building now? I don't even want to imagine because knowing what it COULD have been (judging what is being built on the other side of Woodward abutting the freeway) makes me want to cry. That lot has had next to zero usage since the building was demolished not prior to the Super Bowl as it was intended, but during the Super Bowl.

Look no further than Chicago too. There is another fine example on how to connect the intensity of downtown to the rest of the city. If you look at I-94 through downtown Chicago, the city is building up and dense around it...condo towers too...not flat, gated, grassy government buildings next to dirty, cold service drives adjacent to an ugly ditch of freeway.

So, LMich, yes I do think there can be significant changes that will positively affect the infrastructure for downtown. I-375 and the Lodge where they meet Jefferson are pretty much done deals. Pedestrian and even vehicle access around these nodes is very difficult because there is a great contrast in functionality. City streets (pedestrian-oriented) transitioning into freeways (auto-oriented). It's a bad combination and kills off another part of valuable downtown space.

But connecting bridges over the freeways (kinda like Fort Street over the Lodge at Wayne County Community College) can make big differences. I know it's a long way off. I was driving on Grand Blvd over I-75 (near the Ambassador Bridge) the other day and noticed how nice those bridges are and how just a little extra care made a world of difference. It is much better than the Woodward bridge downtown which offers no design standard.

There are ways around Detroit's crippling street grid. I think we can use it as an asset as it typically is. But the fact that drastic changes need to be made, simply due to the modernizing of society, doesn't mean we should carelessly and shortsightedly devour the surface streets with new development at the same time we leave the ditches as ineffective as they are. There needs to be a long term plan implimented as opposed to short term. Downtown is going to continue to grow and that means the current infrastructure either adapts because its capacity will be able to, or planners are going to have to start considering ways to mobilize more efficiently throughout the central core. 24 hour gridlock will put a big damper on economic development if it is not appropriately addressed.

[detwaa84]

I think Toronto is the best example of density. I just returned from there and it is truly beautiful and best describes what Michi is talking about. You can't even tell when you step out of downtown, even with the lack of freeways anywhere near it. It is very well connected and, and the only way I can describe it, is the density doesn't end, unlike Chicago for example, where its only such on the north of downtown (lincoln park).

[RustTown]

Are you talking high-rise density, because even then Chicago easily compares with Toronto. They are just stretched two different ways along their lakefronts, Chicago north to south, Toronto east to west.

[Jasoncw]

I recall that Toronto has an elevated highway that cuts through some of the area, and that it didn't seem to divide the area too much, but I wasn't around that area very much so I can't be sure.

[detwaa84]

Are you talking high-rise density, because even then Chicago easily compares with Toronto. They are just stretched two different ways along their lakefronts, Chicago north to south, Toronto east to west.

[wolverine]

I wish we could put buildings over top of the freeways or even parking structures. However, land is cheap enough to prevent that from happening. I guess it doesn't always work. I saw pictures of one being demoed in Milwaukee that I think was like that (it had a wyland mural). A couple years ago when I was staying in Manhattan for the summer, I rode my bike around this area of Washington heights, and didn't even know the Cross-Bronx Freeway was beneath me. They had some ugly-ass project housing tower built overtop of it. Although, the concept of placing towers in general above it is great.

[Jasoncw]

I've never explored Chicago, but from my understanding the neighborhoods are good too, although I've also heard about a few horror stories of bad planning, and cool buildings->demolished->empty field stories.

Both Toronto and Chicago are major world-class cities. We have a lot to learn from them, but at the same time, Detroit can not be directly compared to them. I think it would be like comparing Traverse City to Detroit.

[RustTown]

It's not really land values preventing it, is it? There is a difference between a tunnel and a freeway cap.

BTW, however the two are structured, Chicago's population density is 12,000 vs. Toronto's 10,000.

Also, comparing Detroit two either of those two is nowhere near like comparing Detroit to Traverse City. Toronto's metro area isn't that much larger than Detroit's, and they were both historically important cities, Detroit having been greater than Toronto for quite some time.

[detwaa84]

You're right, if you look at an aerial view, Detroit's metro area is much much larger. and both regions are around 5 million. That says something alot about density and sprawl, right?

[Michi]

Yes, Chicago is still very dense outside of the greater downtown area. The best way to experience Chicago's neighborhood density is to take any one of the El Trains out of downtown. It's best this way because you get an elevated sense of place, which is different from ground level which is bias toward just street frontage perspective mainly.

I don't think freeway capage is as much of an issue of available land as it is policy. All the great cities in America have lots of land to develop if all the argument was was that it's cheaper to build new or cheaper where there is more than enough land. If that were the case, we'd have no downtowns (I say that as an extreme case in order to make my point).

Detroit could push the envelope and start thinking outside of the box and start letting the state and Feds what it wants and how it wants to tackle its urban infrastrucute with projects that make the public quality of life better for everyone. Detroit is a city too. Not just some place that people go out of their way in order to invest in and then to be told, "well, your investment will be dead in 15 years when your tax abatements go away, especially since entities like Rock Financial will find it cheaper to build in Grand Blanc Township."

[RustTown]

Michi, that view is looking down what street? It reminds me of what Grand River could have been (and still looks like to some extent) if the city hadn't faltered.

[wolverine]

That looks like Clybourn Ave.

... I wouldn't call this area a good example of great preserved density (as far as the old neigbhborhood goes) until you get much further down. There was alot of demolition for the parking and shopping plazas that went up around there. Although on the other hand, there's alot of new infill going up that are filling these areas back in. I'll post pics

[wolverine]

Clybourn Ave. As you can see there's a lot of infill that helps restore the neighborhood density

A few older buildings amongst new ones.

Once you get off Clybourn, there's some nice original neighborhood density:

Sheffield

Armitage ave

CTA at Armitage

[detwaa84]

Are those pics of the Lincoln Park/north of downtown area.

[wolverine]

Correct. just slightly north of the part where the brown line makes some tight bends, and just south of DePaul U

[Michi]

Just an fyi...progress has started on the old Lavdas site. A big hole has been carved into the old school house where the infill building will "plug in" to the school house. Also, road work has begun on the Lafayette side of the building where the expansion will be built over the west bound lanes. Also, you can see a little poke of the first level of the hotel on level 4.

[detwaa84]

Are you guys sure the Greektown garage facing Monroe will not have the set back it currently does. It looks closed up/unaccessible to cars.

[wolverine]

?

[Michi]

Here's the latest from the Greektown Casino. June 20, 2007

The Greektown Casino expansion will include a section that will be built OVER the westbound lanes of Lafayette Avenue.

I didn't think I'd really like the skywalk, but it's kinda cool how it sorta looks to just disappear into the buildings on the left side of the photo. Plus, it doesn't obstruct any views, and you can't see it until after you pass the People Mover track.

It's not an illusion. It appears to slant slightly downward toward the left.

The Old Ste. Mary's School House is the building on the right that will be connected to the garage via the skywalk.

Next to the school house is the site of the old Lavdas Building. A structure will be built here to connect to the current casino facility seen on the right.

Looking north down St. Antoine. The school house is on the left.

Southbound St. Antoine.

Ren Cen wanted some attention as always.

The current height of the hotel...zero...not counting the actual floor.

[Michi]

[Zissou]

Thanks for the update Michi. I agree about the skywalk, I think its cool and kind of adds to the district. Ive said this over and over again, but Greektown is easily my favorite of the three. Id really love to seem some residential filler added to and around the district in the future. Its a great walkable neighborhood and I think the restaurants and casino would make the area attractive to people looking for vibrant city life.

[wolverine]

It is an interesting object, and I agree that it does indeed add a different level of activity to this corner. But yeah, architecturally it already appears to be the worst crime ever. It just blasts into the side of the old school. It reminds me of Saginaw's elevated sidewalk system when in the 70's, planners had this wonderful plan to connect every building with skywalks. They blasted through the historic facades of many. Years later when the city decided the elevated city sidewalk system should be taken down, the historic buildings went too with one of the reasons being their facades had been so damaged. Just a horrible flashback that's all. But jeez, St. Mary's School, you just got raped.

twice it appears.

[RustTown]

Interesting what they are doing. I expect to the damage to the school to be much worse, but this seems much less intrusive than I thought. I'm waiting to see what the elevated skywalk is going to look like when they've given it some clothes, though. I'm wondering if they are going to do it like they did the People Mover Station?

[Michi]

Yah, it would have been nice if the skywalk would have blasted into the side facing the church, but even so, it seems like there might not have been the room or angles to do so.