Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanfan]

The other pics are within the article on pages 16, 18, and 21. If you look at the cover image, there's an operator/driver towards the front of the train near the Monticello Ave. sign, and the front of a white car pointed in the opposite direction. Now the train could have 2 engineer compartments (front and back) eventhough the tail end of the train doesn't seem to be sloped like the front... but why would the operator be in the compartment facing oncoming traffic? I know it's minor, I was just wondering if anybody else caught that. The operator must be on his lunch break

All LRT vehicles can be driven in either direction. There is always a cockpit in the front and rear of the train so that at the ends of lines expensive track doesn't have to be laid to turn the vehicles around.

[vdogg]

Well, didn't find the other pics. May have to pick up a copy and scan them. I did however find another article in the editors notebook from the same day as the article above. It is a look at how Portlands light rail system started out much like Norfolk's. It's an interesting read.

[rusthebuss]

Well, didn't find the other pics. May have to pick up a copy and scan them. I did however find another article in the editors notebook from the same day as the article above. It is a look at how Portlands light rail system started out much like Norfolk's. It's an interesting read.

I have to say that its not that bad of a article. The author makes alot of valid points.

[Glassoul]

I'm glad you displayed that picture:

I was wondering how ticketing would be with regards to light rail. I've seen light rail in other cities but I never road it, so there was no need to get a ticket. I notice that there is a ticket booth; will loading be similar to getting on the bus?

I know with subways you pay to get into the terminal and it allows for the system to be completely un-manned for faster loading. I assume this would take a while to load passengers...Also, outside of street bums/homeless, why don't they provide better shelter from the elements? That’s a make or break deal for converting business people to use the rail system I know!!!! It’s one thing to walk from your car to the terminal in the rain, but it is also a deal breaker to walk to the terminal and stand in the elements (especially when the wind is blowing) waiting for the train...

They have to come up with something better than that..

edit......

I see little area to sheild one from the elements.....

Most of the LRT fare collections are based on the honor system, supported by random inspections. Here in Montreal, for example, they will occasionally have security officers at certain stations and as people disembark the train they'll ask to see their ticket. Once in a blue moon they'll walk through a random car and ask to see everyone's tickets. No ticket = $100 one way trip. My experience was that you get asked only 1 out of 20 round trips, but it was always amusing to see the one person get busted...

I'm sure the LRT system in HR will be, for the foreseeable future, a single fare system only.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Glassoul

[scm]

Transit Development Map

Interesting map, that might have been posted here before (it is dated 4/2006 but has obviously been recently updated). Shows the LRT against existing and planned developments.

[urbanvb]

Great find. I realize this is only a starter line but I really wish somehow it could be extended a little to the north to include a part of Ghent.

[gosscj]

Great find. I realize this is only a starter line but I really wish somehow it could be extended a little to the north to include a part of Ghent.

I agree. Just ONE MORE stop would make a huge difference in the ridership figures for this line.

[Sky06]

I agree. Just ONE MORE stop would make a huge difference in the ridership figures for this line.

What's the Hoffler Development? Was that a previous plan?

[Glassoul]

What's the Hoffler Development? Was that a previous plan?

That was a proposed 35 story apartment building that seems to be either on hold or canceled. Nothing has been updated about it quite a long time.

The line seems to have its terminus after Colley Ave., which seems silly to me. If you were going to extend it in the future, you should have it travel up Colley until 21st Street. That way it goes through the heart of the Ghent business district and the higher density parts of the neighborhood. It also means if they are going to extend it in the future, they're intending to take it up Hampton Blvd straight away, adding to the traffic coming from the tunnel.

[scm]

The line seems to have its terminus after Colley Ave., which seems silly to me. If you were going to extend it in the future, you should have it travel up Colley until 21st Street.

I really disagree about the whole utility of a northward extension of the LR from the stop at Norfolk General. There is effectively, no way to have this on dedicated ROW -- no corridor exists, which means that the LR will be nothing more than a streetcar, and will move at a pace with the traffic. Even if you create an esplanade in the middle of Hampton, you will still have to stop for the cross streets. There is no advantage to that system that can't be met by connecting surface street bus service. Not as sexy, but .... This isn't a corridor for Navy base traffic -- they all originate in Kempsville and other parts of VB -- too long to slog through downtown and then up Hampton on the LR to make that an attractive alternative . Might get some traffic to ODU, but not enough to justify the cost over bus service.

The next logical extension for the LR is westward, through a tube as a part of the new Midtown tunnel. Our problem here is throughput at choke ponts caused by water crossings. As we are finding, the solutions to that problem are incredibly costly. Until we have viable alternatives that can move large numbers through the choke points, then we will be in a death spiral -- more demand, with only the most costly solutions. We need to expand on the spine of this starter system, and the way to expand it next is across the choke point immediately to the west. Maybe someday a northward extension will make sense -- just not in the foreseeable future.

[vaceltic]

I thought there used to be a line dedicated to NSU.

[vdogg]

I thought there used to be a line dedicated to NSU.

Not a line but there is a stop by NSU.

[Glassoul]

I really disagree about the whole utility of a northward extension of the LR from the stop at Norfolk General. There is effectively, no way to have this on dedicated ROW -- no corridor exists, which means that the LR will be nothing more than a streetcar, and will move at a pace with the traffic. Even if you create an esplanade in the middle of Hampton, you will still have to stop for the cross streets. There is no advantage to that system that can't be met by connecting surface street bus service. Not as sexy, but .... This isn't a corridor for Navy base traffic -- they all originate in Kempsville and other parts of VB -- too long to slog through downtown and then up Hampton on the LR to make that an attractive alternative . Might get some traffic to ODU, but not enough to justify the cost over bus service.

The next logical extension for the LR is westward, through a tube as a part of the new Midtown tunnel. Our problem here is throughput at choke ponts caused by water crossings. As we are finding, the solutions to that problem are incredibly costly. Until we have viable alternatives that can move large numbers through the choke points, then we will be in a death spiral -- more demand, with only the most costly solutions. We need to expand on the spine of this starter system, and the way to expand it next is across the choke point immediately to the west. Maybe someday a northward extension will make sense -- just not in the foreseeable future.

I have have doubts that the entire line will end up being nothing more than a huge money hole for the region, but that doesn't stop me from speculating. Hampton has a median and/or dedicated turn lanes once you get past the railroad underpass at various points (which is where I said they should pick it up from 21st). But if I were to extend the line that way, it wouldn't just be marketed as a time saver, but rather that it frees you from the hassles and frustrations of dealing with traffic yourself, you save on gas (which you end up spending on the ticket price), and wear and tear on your car. My personal preference would be to have wifi on the trains and stations, you could get a lot of university students and office workers to use the service with that, and they could get advertisements to pick up most of the cost of installation.

Actually, the most logical first extension would be to Town Center and then to the oceanfront, since that would be the least costly and would service the most people. The problem with a westbound extension is that it requires a second mid-town tunnel, and is therefore extremely expensive and takes years to construct.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Glassoul

[Padman]

Consultants evaluated lines several years ago and chose to extend first to the Beach and then to the Norfolk Naval Station on a fast route roughly parallel to Military Highway. They believed that fast access to the base would increase potential ridership a great deal, as do I. Once there, there would be a problem circulating riders to diverse on-base destinations, but the Navy needs to pick up that ball, security issues and all.

[scm]

Hampton has a median and/or dedicated turn lanes once you get past the railroad underpass at various points (which is where I said they should pick it up from 21st).

Actually, the most logical first extension would be to Town Center and then to the oceanfront, since that would be the least costly and would service the most people. The problem with a westbound extension is that it requires a second mid-town tunnel, and is therefore extremely expensive and takes years to construct.

Under the current alignment, it is the section from Brambleton to 25th that is the problem, not north of 25th. As you point out, the Medical Center station is west of Colley, and I have to believe it is too far along to change. To continue north on Hampton, unless it is a streetcar (shared track and traffic lane), it won't fly -- the public won't stand for losing 50% of the lanes, and then LR is just an expensive bus. I agree with you -- there isn't any kind of traffic generator west of Colley to justify a LR line until you get to ODU. Interesting to note that HRT doesn't show a Hampton Blvd LR alignment anywhere in their plans -- their route to the Navy Base goes in the HOV lanes of 64.

And of course the logical first extension of LR is to the Oceanfront -- you just have to convince the voters of VB that LR won't bring "those kind of people" to their pristine community (like they aren't driving to the oceanfront right now!). The new Midtown tunnel will be one of the first projects funded by the transportation bill. Adding a transit tube at the same time is pretty low additional cost. Stories in the paper said the new Midtown could be open by 2011 if all goes right. That isn't that far off.

Edited July 30, 2007 by scm

[br0guy]

Under the current alignment, it is the section from Brambleton to 25th that is the problem, not north of 25th. As you point out, the Medical Center station is west of Colley, and I have to believe it is too far along to change. To continue north on Hampton, unless it is a streetcar (shared track and traffic lane), it won't fly -- the public won't stand for losing 50% of the lanes, and then LR is just an expensive bus. I agree with you -- there isn't any kind of traffic generator west of Colley to justify a LR line until you get to ODU. Interesting to note that HRT doesn't show a Hampton Blvd LR alignment anywhere in their plans -- their route to the Navy Base goes in the HOV lanes of 64.

What if the line were to go up the back end of West Ghent (parallel to Redgate), crossover the LAmberts Point Rail yard, hit ODU, and then reconnect w/ Hampton Blvd further up? Is this feasible (other than Nimbys in W.Ghent)?

[gosscj]

I think that would be feasible but there really aren't any destinations along that route between Fort Norfolk and ODU. Sad as it is, I don't think many people would walk across Hampton Boulevard to get to Colley or 21st St.

[Henry_Ryto]

Consultants evaluated lines several years ago and chose to extend first to the Beach and then to the Norfolk Naval Station on a fast route roughly parallel to Military Highway. They believed that fast access to the base would increase potential ridership a great deal, as do I. Once there, there would be a problem circulating riders to diverse on-base destinations, but the Navy needs to pick up that ball, security issues and all.

HRT already has two free shuttle buses on the base, Routes 75 and 77.

[Henry_Ryto]

I'd extend EVMS to the Navy base via ODU ASAP. Not only does it make sense, but it makes it more attractive for Virginia Beach to get in. (VB would have access to ODU and the Navy base.)

As for the alignment, shoot up Colley Ave. to ODU. (I agree that the traffic problems on Hampton Blvd. would be too huge.) It's wide enough.

[br0guy]

I'd extend EVMS to the Navy base via ODU ASAP. Not only does it make sense, but it makes it more attractive for Virginia Beach to get in. (VB would have access to ODU and the Navy base.)

As for the alignment, shoot up Colley Ave. to ODU. (I agree that the traffic problems on Hampton Blvd. would be too huge.) It's wide enough.

You would have to eliminate parking on Colley Ave, or widen it..... and there's also a rail underpass near 21st Street..... $$$$$$

[Padman]

Then bring back the Ghent bypass idea and go one-way on Hampton Blvd and one-way on the bypass up to a merge point well north of 21st street. I don't think LRT will work on Colley or on Hampton Boulevard alone. Don't worry too much about West Ghent Nimbys, they might actually agree to it if it's for light rail.

[kjice2]

Kirn Memorial and Light rail

This article has information about the future of Kirn Memorial and Norfolk Light rail system

[Merrittk92]

Norfolk light-rail project closes in on construction phase

From the Virginian Pilot

"The city's long-sought starter light-rail line has finally cleared federal administrative hurdles and is now just one step away from reality."

[vdogg]

Awesome. It looks like our entire congressional delegation is on board too. The fact that this is a "mere formality" makes this pretty much a done deal. It's absolutely great that Norfolk was able to get this done, this is integral to our future. This is turning out to be a very big year for actual construction of projects in this region.

[levarforever]

Awesome. It looks like our entire congressional delegation is on board too. The fact that this is a "mere formality" makes this pretty much a done deal. It's absolutely great that Norfolk was able to get this done, this is integral to our future. This is turning out to be a very big year for actual construction of projects in this region.

Heeeey, I was going to post the news about this, but I guess ya beat me to it....lol. This is great for Norfolk and, subsequently, the whole region. Everyone is saying it is a done deal. I hope you're right about the "mere formality". I'm still going to keep my fingers crossed really tight though.