Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Henry_Ryto]

LRT on Atlantic isn't a bad idea, even though it would require separate line. If they opt not to do that, I would recommend blocking car traffic and only let the busses drive down that street.

Sort of like Denver's 16st Mall...

LRT on Atlantic Ave. is a non-starter: the VBHMA doesn't want anyone touching the traffic patterns on Atlantic. (See: BRT debate)

[Henry_Ryto]

This is the type of thing that will help make light rail more attractive. I hope they plan on similar assets for the rail line.

HRT offers new express buses/wifi

"possibly" Wi-fi; HRT is still doing a cost/benefit analysis on it.

However, I am looking forward to The Rapid.

[gosscj]

LRT on Atlantic Ave. is a non-starter: the VBHMA doesn't want anyone touching the traffic patterns on Atlantic. (See: BRT debate)

Can someone explain this briefly?

[Henry_Ryto]

Can someone explain this briefly?

It was my statement, so I will. The Virginia Beach Hotel/Motel Association (VBHMA) is determined to maintain the traffic pattern status quo on Atlantic Avenue.

1. They oppose going to one-way traffic on Atlantic and Pacific.

a. They believe visitors drive up-and-down Atlantic window shopping for hotel accomodations.

b. Going to one-way would turn traffic away from some businesses at the gateway points.

2. They want to be able to use the trolley lanes also for charter bus loading/unloading and business delivery parking.

That was what became the biggest stumbling block for BRT: FTA regulations require that dedicated BRT lanes be used exclusively for BRT. You can't maintain two-way traffic, have loading zones, and dedicated BRT lanes at the same time.

LRT would face similar obstacles: the VBHMA would want to maintain two-way traffic and loading zones on Atlantic Ave. There's not enough room to do it all.

[vdogg]

The APTA transit conference will be held in Norfolk this year. For more information check our calendar.

[Henry_Ryto]

The APTA transit conference will be held in Norfolk this year. For more information check our calendar.

I mailed in my registration and check for Thinking Beyond the Station conference last night. The registration deadline is July 6.

[vdogg]

Time and Tide

I'm sorry, but the Hampster just sounds dumb to me.

[Padman]

The Hampster is a silly name. What are we, fleas? Too bad they didn't pick (pun intended) that name, we could have had a lot of fun with it.

Who knows if and when LRT will go to the oceanfront? The politics down there really are a stumbling block. Think about the one-way road proposal. It's been suggested for many years (by planners, engineers and other people who have foolishly actually thought about the problem) and it's easily the most cost effective way to help move that awful clot of traffic. Many local merchants are being myopic and fearful, as always. Do they have any idea how many potential customers avoid the area entirely because of the traffic? And then there's the unspoken fear of LRT bringling in hordes of huns, barbarians and Islamist Jihadists. And then there's the 100 foot tidal wave that I've dreamed of occasionally. (Rant)

I guess the best thing to do would be to establish a political process and a plan to get people to really work together on some of the oceanfront issues. The current processes have become too insular and fractured down there. Maybe less is more--too many processes.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Padman

[Henry_Ryto]

City engineers have made clear that the entire Resort Area will be gridlocked by 2010 unless we go to one-way streets. However, the VBHMA and RRA cling to their silly positions.

[orulz]

One-way traffic through the resort area really does seem like an A-bomb sort of solution. I think that if light rail could somehow be separated from vehicular traffic, it could be sold as the solution to gridlock without having to resort to one-way traffic. If locals want to go to the beach, but don't want to worry about gridlock, take the train. If tourists want to get to somewhere else, and not worry about gridlock, take the train.

This might sound crazy, but is there any way the trains could run along the boardwalk?? Naah, that would be too crazy.

Other options would be an elevated line over one of the streets (ugly) or to make a corridor through eminent domain (between Atlantic and Pacific would be the ideal location but in the real world probably another block or so further away.) And come to think of it, crossing all those streets at grade would probably be dangerous, so even a mid-block alignment would have to be elevated.

The more I think about it, the more I realize there's just not a good alternative to going on-street...

[burt]

How about a neat monorail (or ODU's Meglev) beginning at the Convention Center, east to Atlantic Avenue at Rudees Inlet, then as far north as residents would allow? It's not like a sleek elevated track would mar the existing architecture. In fact, it might enhance the look of Atlantic Avenue if interestingly designed.

[levarforever]

One-way traffic through the resort area really does seem like an A-bomb sort of solution. I think that if light rail could somehow be separated from vehicular traffic, it could be sold as the solution to gridlock without having to resort to one-way traffic. If locals want to go to the beach, but don't want to worry about gridlock, take the train. If tourists want to get to somewhere else, and not worry about gridlock, take the train.

This might sound crazy, but is there any way the trains could run along the boardwalk?? Naah, that would be too crazy.

Other options would be an elevated line over one of the streets (ugly) or to make a corridor through eminent domain (between Atlantic and Pacific would be the ideal location but in the real world probably another block or so further away.) And come to think of it, crossing all those streets at grade would probably be dangerous, so even a mid-block alignment would have to be elevated.

The more I think about it, the more I realize there's just not a good alternative to going on-street...

I like VA Beach, but, actually, I think that it dropped the ball on light rail a long time ago. The citizens and city council members missed a really good opportunity to enhance the profile of the city, by possibly drawing new businesses, venues, hotels, etc. VA Beach already has a lot going for it as far as being a resort city and the quality of life is concerned. However, one would think that it being the largest city in population in the state and having more undeveloped land than Norfolk, it would have spear-headed alongside Norfolk, an attempt to finally acquire an authentic mass transit system, i.e. light rail. I could go on, even about seeking a pro sports team and building a major business district too (which they are just now building in the form of Town Center...thats strange). And yet, what do you know, Norfolk, the smaller city, has done all that by its self. That says a lot about Norfolk's ambition, although, sometimes misguided.

As for Va Beach, why, if its the world's largest resort city, in size, does it not have a city wide mass transit system. Thats rather odd. In a resort city, lots of visitors have to be shuttled around efficiently, especially during the tourist season. I mean, for goodness sake, have you seen Atlantic avenue during the summer months. Its like a parking lot; and they depend on buses and faux trolleys? In anycase, I think that LRT in Norfolk will eventually spread to other cities (so I hope) in the 757, maybe to Portsmouth or Chesapeake before anywhere else.

[levarforever]

I don't think I would want to ride anything called the "Hampster". It strikes me as indignant and inhumane to animals don't you think.

[vdogg]

How about a neat monorail (or ODU's Meglev) beginning at the Convention Center, east to Atlantic Avenue at Rudees Inlet, then as far north as residents would allow? It's not like a sleek elevated track would mar the existing architecture. In fact, it might enhance the look of Atlantic Avenue if interestingly designed.

Something similar (a monorail, not maglev) was proposed for the Oceanfront but dropped due to lack of city interest (the developer basically wanted the city to fund most of the cost and they weren't too keen on that).

[Padman]

I like the $500 million+ solutions too, but I'd like to try the affordable measures first. One-way streets are cheap and they work very well elsewhere where this problem has come up. They do introduce a certain degree of inconvenience, but we could have left turn bays into 4 or 5 block loops to help get people going the other way.

[Sky06]

I like the $500 million+ solutions too, but I'd like to try the affordable measures first. One-way streets are cheap and they work very well elsewhere where this problem has come up. They do introduce a certain degree of inconvenience, but we could have left turn bays into 4 or 5 block loops to help get people going the other way.

What do other comparable cities do? Like Ocean City, Myrtle Beach, etc? Or do they not have as much traffic?

[Henry_Ryto]

Something similar (a monorail, not maglev) was proposed for the Oceanfront but dropped due to lack of city interest (the developer basically wanted the city to fund most of the cost and they weren't too keen on that).

It was $67 million for a monorail going 5 blocks, from the Dome site to the convention center.

A HRT official I spoke to was incredulous that Virginia Beach would seriously look at such a proposal after turning down a BRT system for the entire Resort Area that would have cost $24.4 million.

Saner heads prevailed and the monorail was ditched.

[Henry_Ryto]

I like VA Beach, but, actually, I think that it dropped the ball on light rail a long time ago. The citizens and city council members missed a really good opportunity to enhance the profile of the city, by possibly drawing new businesses, venues, hotels, etc. VA Beach already has a lot going for it as far as being a resort city and the quality of life is concerned. However, one would think that it being the largest city in population in the state and having more undeveloped land than Norfolk, it would have spear-headed alongside Norfolk, an attempt to finally acquire an authentic mass transit system, i.e. light rail. I could go on, even about seeking a pro sports team and building a major business district too (which they are just now building in the form of Town Center...thats strange). And yet, what do you know, Norfolk, the smaller city, has done all that by its self. That says a lot about Norfolk's ambition, although, sometimes misguided.

As for Va Beach, why, if its the world's largest resort city, in size, does it not have a city wide mass transit system. Thats rather odd. In a resort city, lots of visitors have to be shuttled around efficiently, especially during the tourist season. I mean, for goodness sake, have you seen Atlantic avenue during the summer months. Its like a parking lot; and they depend on buses and faux trolleys? In anycase, I think that LRT in Norfolk will eventually spread to other cities (so I hope) in the 757, maybe to Portsmouth or Chesapeake before anywhere else.

As I mentioned before, Virginia Beach has a Citywide Transit Plan in the works. 30-foot hybrid buses are ideal for the low-density subdivisons that make up most of our city.

My hypothesis is that LRT down the Norfolk Southern ROW will come out as a section of the Plan. Therefore, you can't vote against LRT without rejecting the entire Plan.

Virginia Beach is running out of greenfields for development north of the Green Line. I would argue the only rational way for Virginia Beach to continue to grow is to go to Smart Growth in the Norfolk Southern Corridor. Fittingly our new Chief Development Officer, former Suffolk City Manager Steve Herbert, is a Smart Growther. Want to connect the dots?

[levarforever]

As I mentioned before, Virginia Beach has a Citywide Transit Plan in the works. 30-foot hybrid buses are ideal for the low-density subdivisons that make up most of our city.

My hypothesis is that LRT down the Norfolk Southern ROW will come out as a section of the Plan. Therefore, you can't vote against LRT without rejecting the entire Plan.

Virginia Beach is running out of greenfields for development north of the Green Line. I would argue the only rational way for Virginia Beach to continue to grow is to go to Smart Growth in the Norfolk Southern Corridor. Fittingly our new Chief Development Officer, former Suffolk City Manager Steve Herbert, is a Smart Growther. Want to connect the dots?

Without entertaining the unnecessarily condescending question at the end, I'd like to remind you that I never suggested that any other form of transportation wouldn't work to some degree in Va Beach. I'm open to all solutions that could be affective. However, in light of what you said, it begs the question, why acquiring any kind of mass transit system, that could be a catalyst for the entire region, light rail or otherwise, would not be spear-headed by VA Beach according to details about the city I already stated and that everyone in the 757 region is already aware of. Sure 30 foot hybrid buses are a good idea, complimentarily, except for the fact that they still have to confront traffic woes, just like all other motor vehicles. Whereas rail transit can bypass such headaches. Furthermore, rail transit travels on a direct route, making vast distances between certain areas, which is also indicative of VA Beach, seem like only a hop-skip away. So, it would actually make more sense that the vast sprawling, premiere city of VA Beach, imaginary Green Line or not, would take the lead in light rail, versus the city of Norfolk where in many districts you can walk or ride your bike to the mall. Lets not forget that VA Beach has almost twice as many people as Norfolk and just as much traffic, if not more.

[Sky06]

Without entertaining the unnecessarily condescending question at the end, I'd like to remind you that I never suggested that any other form of transportation wouldn't work to some degree in Va Beach. I'm open to all solutions that could be affective. However, in light of what you said, it begs the question, why acquiring any kind of mass transit system, that could be a catalyst for the entire region, light rail or otherwise, would not be spear-headed by VA Beach according to details about the city I already stated and that everyone in the 757 region is already aware of. Sure 30 foot hybrid buses are a good idea, complimentarily, except for the fact that they still have to confront traffic woes, just like all other motor vehicles. Whereas rail transit can bypass such headaches. Furthermore, rail transit travels on a direct route, making vast distances between certain areas, which is also indicative of VA Beach, seem like only a hop-skip away. So, it would actually make more sense that the vast sprawling, premiere city of VA Beach, imaginary Green Line or not, would take the lead in light rail, versus the city of Norfolk where in many districts you can walk or ride your bike to the mall. Lets not forget that VA Beach has almost twice as many people as Norfolk and just as much traffic, if not more.

And many more poorly timed traffic lights.

Oops, did I say that out loud?

[Henry_Ryto]

Without entertaining the unnecessarily condescending question at the end, I'd like to remind you that I never suggested that any other form of transportation wouldn't work to some degree in Va Beach. I'm open to all solutions that could be affective. However, in light of what you said, it begs the question, why acquiring any kind of mass transit system, that could be a catalyst for the entire region, light rail or otherwise, would not be spear-headed by VA Beach according to details about the city I already stated and that everyone in the 757 region is already aware of. Sure 30 foot hybrid buses are a good idea, complimentarily, except for the fact that they still have to confront traffic woes, just like all other motor vehicles. Whereas rail transit can bypass such headaches. Furthermore, rail transit travels on a direct route, making vast distances between certain areas, which is also indicative of VA Beach, seem like only a hop-skip away. So, it would actually make more sense that the vast sprawling, premiere city of VA Beach, imaginary Green Line or not, would take the lead in light rail, versus the city of Norfolk where in many districts you can walk or ride your bike to the mall. Lets not forget that VA Beach has almost twice as many people as Norfolk and just as much traffic, if not more.

Fairly simple:

1. LRT is an urban system.

2. Norfolk is urban.

3. Virginia Beach is essentially an overgrown suburb that's just starting to urbanize.

Therefore, it is natural for Norfolk to be spearheading light rail.

[Case]

Fairly simple:

1. LRT is an urban system.

2. Norfolk is urban.

3. Virginia Beach is essentially an overgrown suburb that's just starting to urbanize.

Therefore, it is natural for Norfolk to be spearheading light rail.

Ohh, lease we forget political persuasions, but of Course....EVERYONE....knows that:

Trains / Mass transit = Liberals

Cars / Roads = Conservatives

Edited July 3, 2007 by Case

[mistermetaj]

Is Smart Growth an actual plan or idea to build up around a transit area in va beach or is that just jargon thrown around by politicians?

[vdogg]

Is Smart Growth an actual plan or idea to build up around a transit area in va beach or is that just jargon thrown around by politicians?

Both actually. Jargon thrown around by politicians wishing to get elected in the traffic choked suburbs in NoVa and Hampton Roads, and an actual movement to support and implement TOD's in order to create sustainable communities. Just because a lot of politicians pay lip service to it, doesn't mean it's not a good idea. If we wish to become the successful city our leaders (and now many in the community) want us to be, smart growth coupled with practical (read: used by the public at large) transit options is the only way to go.

[Henry_Ryto]

Ohh, lease we forget political persuasions, but of Course....EVERYONE....knows that:

Trains / Mass transit = Liberals

Cars / Roads = Conservatives

Not quite:

1. I'm a Republican who was a member of the Virginia Beach Republican City Committee 1998-2005.

2. James Toscano, HRT's chief lobbyist, is a former aide for Bob McDonnell.

Not such a neat box.