Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanfan]

3 years to construct the Light Rail System (7.4 mile track)? Can someone explain this to me?

Several months are devoted to just testing the train and tracks before they can get the approval to run revenue service. Embedding the tracks takes times as does building two bridges over water. (One at Brambleton the other past NSU) All of these have to deal with wetlands mitigation and other important processes to. Building the system takes time.

[lammius]

vdogg, the link to the story about PB et other consultants won't work (at least not for me). I'm interested in seeing who the 16 subs are.

[vdogg]

vdogg, the link to the story about PB et other consultants won't work (at least not for me). I'm interested in seeing who the 16 subs are.

Link works fine for me. It's not really and article, just a short one paragraph blurb that states they've been awarded the contract. It doesn't name the 16 subs.

[vdogg]

Nothing major here, just a little tidbit of information that I was not aware of so I decided to post it here. Needless to say, the 3 year construction time is starting to make a lot of sense. We shouldn't underestimate the complexity of this project.

Light Rail

The proposed new light rail does not travel over the Brambleton Avenue Bridge. The engineering firm, Parsons Brinckerhoff, is designing a separate bridge to the south of the Brambleton Avenue Bridge to accommodate light rail.

[Sky06]

Nothing major here, just a little tidbit of information that I was not aware of so I decided to post it here. Needless to say, the 3 year construction time is starting to make a lot of sense. We shouldn't underestimate the complexity of this project.

This is a pretty good indication that it will someday go to ODU and the Naval Base.

[vdogg]

In related news Kaines 2 year budget has survived albeit severely mangled

They largely left aside an unresolved fight over long-term transportation funding, but agreed with Kaine to plow surplus tax revenue into one-time road and transit needs. The full House and Senate will vote on the plans later this week. "Clearly, this budget meets core obligations for education, health care and public safety as well as invests substantial general fund dollars to improve Virginia's network of roads, rail and public transit," said House Speaker Bill Howell, R-Stafford County, of the House budget proposal.

The part in bold is very important because included in that budget is $29 million for light rail. Lets hope this sails past the full house and senate smoothly this Friday. Looks like everything is on track though.

[gosscj]

This is a pretty good indication that it will someday go to ODU and the Naval Base.

I certainly hope so - but what about that quote makes you think that would be in the works?

Edited February 7, 2007 by gosscj

[vdogg]

I certainly hope so - but what about that quote makes you think that would be in the works?

Besides Fort Norfolk, which is still in the early stages of development, there is really nothing in that direction that justifies buidling a full bridge extension except continuing on to those points. Also, the feds recently gave them approval to begin preliminary design for an extension to Norfolk Naval Station.

Link

About 56% of the project capital costs are expected to be paid with federal funds. The remainder of the $230 million would be paid through state and local funding. HRT expects the project to advance to the Final Design phase in 2006, begin construction in 2007, and be operational in late 2009. Hampton Roads Transit believes that Norfolk Light Rail is the beginning of what will eventually become a regional light rail system in Hampton Roads. There is already federal authorization for Preliminary Engineering of an extension to Naval Station Norfolk.

[gosscj]

That's exciting. I know there was some speculation that there was really no good place to run a train line parallel to Hampton and Colley - is there any consensus on what the route might look like? Perhaps it will operate like a streetcar and move with traffic down Hampton until it gets past the really awful traffic section.

[rusthebuss]

That's exciting. I know there was some speculation that there was really no good place to run a train line parallel to Hampton and Colley - is there any consensus on what the route might look like? Perhaps it will operate like a streetcar and move with traffic down Hampton until it gets past the really awful traffic section.

I wonder if it will feasible to elevate it?

[vdogg]

Feasible? Yes, but also expensive. There are very few elevated crossings in the starter line which helps to reduce cost. If ridership projections are on target though and the line proves itself, I expect future extensions will make a lot more use out of above grade crossings.

[vdogg]

Report sheds doubts on funds for light rail When it rains it pours I guess.

Federal transit authorities have some lingering questions about the cost effectiveness of Norfolk's proposed light rail starter line, but are keeping the project on track for now. A report released Tuesday by the Federal Transit Administration said the project may not keep its "medium" rating, which makes it eligible for federal funding. Hampton Roads Transit officials are relying on that money - about $128 million - to pay for 55 percent of construction costs.

"Remaining uncertainties... do not provide FTA with the necessary confidence" that it will maintain its rating and achieve the necessary cost effectiveness to receive federal funding, the report reads.

[vdogg]

Someone please tell me that this isn't the final word for this year. Can they still get a full funding grant agreement this year or is that it?

[monsoon]

I think they have a tough plan to justify as the average cost for building a LRT is $50M/mile and that is pretty much a no-frills line with just concrete pads for stations. According to the 2008 Bush Budget, the LRT is still on the FTA's list to receive funding for final design, but until they grant the FFGA actual construction won't start.

[Padman]

It's very difficuly to justify building this thing with the kind of ridership it would get along the proposed line. It might still be built, but I believe that extensions to the Beach and to Norfolk's Naval Base are crucial. Furthermore, tearing down the Kirn Library at this time would be insane, especially with the court system screaming for new facilities. I'm betting that Norfolk will find a way to keep the LRT alive for a time when the feds aren't throwing so much money at the Middle East. Then we might get more money for the project. Norfolk really is cash strapped--can't do it alone.

[vdogg]

We're in the category in bold

Link

The spending plan, included in President Bush

[vdogg]

Furthermore, tearing down the Kirn Library at this time would be insane, especially with the court system screaming for new facilities.

From this article

The latest idea is to build one of the courthouses between City Hall and the jail, serving as the temporary home for the General District Court. Its current building, on the west side of the jail, would be razed and a second courthouse would be constructed that would eventually house both General District and Circuit courts.

When that building is done, the first new courts building would be converted for the juvenile court and the two would be connected by a lobby.

Meanwhile, the former Union Mission warehouse could be available as a temporary central library, Stein said, if a proposed light rail proceeds, requiring the demolition of Kirn Memorial Library.

[scm]

It's very difficuly to justify building this thing with the kind of ridership it would get along the proposed line. It might still be built, but I believe that extensions to the Beach and to Norfolk's Naval Base are crucial. Furthermore, tearing down the Kirn Library at this time would be insane...

1. The Kirn is falling apart (kirn replacement needed), so tearing it down makes perfect sense. That is valuable property, especially the air rights over the station going in there (Plume Street Station). Great location for a TOD.

2. As far as ridership numbers -- this is a start, and you have to start somewhere. Light rail is the first opportunity in HR to get people with transit alternatives, to choose mass transit. The criticisms of the federal government, and the lack of transit funding, is misplaced (and if they weren't spending $3.5 billion to get the LIRR to Grand Central....). The real culprit is the Assembly, who seems to think that in our most densely populated areas, NoVa and HR, we can just pave our way out of the problem. There has to be a mass transit dimension, and there has to be a traffic demand management dimension, and so far, in a complete abdication of leadership, the Assembly has chosen to include neither in the things they are going to fail to pass.

[Padman]

The Kirn is falling apart because of lack of proper maintenance. It might be possible to renovate and expand it, although a new library would be far preferable. The City simply doesn't have the cash to replace courts, a central library, and pay the lion's share of an LRT project, especially with the meager utility that it would provide. A new library is coming, but not in the next five years.

Our density levels are a very long way from being appropriate for mass transit service. LRT is really a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem, not that early transit options were poor. I would love to see it happen (if I don't pay through the nose for it), but I probably won't ride it aside from the novelty, don't know anyone who will, and can't imagine it making even a tiny dent in our congestion problems. Shoot, it will even create delays on some of our busiest arterials. The maintenance and operations budgets alone will be difficult to meet. People around here deride the BRT idea, but at least it wouldn't be held back by fixed guideways, and therefore be able to adjust to changing markets. Our HOV lanes could make use of such service, and the Naval Base and downtown would be served pretty nicely by BRT. This kind of transit works pretty well in Winnepeg, and in Curitiba.

This is no time to be dishing out a lot of money for social engineering or for politically correct options that won't fit the bill. I'm not an expert, but I've given this a lot of thought and I've seen alot of the supporting data over the years.

[Case]

Im beginning to wonder if the best way to bring about true mass transit in HR is to focus all attention to where it is needed most....getting across our bodies of water. (To bad the drive wasnt here during the 70s when it was still possible to do that sort of thing. ) Hypothetically speaking, if a heavy rail line crossed from Portsmouth to Norfolk preferably downtown...the rest of this project would practically build itself. Norfolk and Vabeach would no longer be the only cities in this discussion. Planners would be dreaming up ways to extend the line all the way to Suffolk.

I wont even go into the possibilities a third crossing with heavy rail would open up for the region.....

I want this project to happen but we do have to ask the question...what is needed most in this region?

But, If the federal government approves the money....take it....may be a long time before another opportunity arrises.

Edited February 9, 2007 by Case

[skylinefan]

I would expect for the first few years Norfolk's Light rail project will probably require public subsidy due to low ridership. I would encourage the city and residents to hang in there with light rail because it really is the future for a congested area like HR. Once people begin to get use to public transit like this in HR ridership usually increases to levels where the light rail system will finally pay for itself, but it may take a while. I saw a story once on the History Channel about mass transit which ended with how cities from Houston to Portland, OR are building light rail systems and the narrator said that no city or metropolitan area can call itself major without some sort of passenger rail system.

[Padman]

Transit may get a soon gain a big push from rising concern about global warming. That could definitely translate into more federal and state subsidies for our LRT, or for some other solutions as well.

[lammius]

I would expect for the first few years Norfolk's Light rail project will probably require public subsidy due to low ridership. I would encourage the city and residents to hang in there with light rail because it really is the future for a congested area like HR. Once people begin to get use to public transit like this in HR ridership usually increases to levels where the light rail system will finally pay for itself, but it may take a while. I saw a story once on the History Channel about mass transit which ended with how cities from Houston to Portland, OR are building light rail systems and the narrator said that no city or metropolitan area can call itself major without some sort of passenger rail system.

I'll clue you in on a dark secret in transit. ALL transit systems require subsidy. There is no transit system on Earth (that I'm aware of) that makes a profit or completely pays for itself using fare revenue and advertising. Norfolk's LRT will be no different. What makes or breaks a transit system is whether or not the subsidy is worth the return. If LRT can reduce SOV trips, spur land (re)development, and keep or attract employers, then it is worth the subsidy. If LRT fails to draw the ridership needed to do those things, then it is a failure and not worth the subsidy.

[Glassoul]

I'll clue you in on a dark secret in transit. ALL transit systems require subsidy. There is no transit system on Earth (that I'm aware of) that makes a profit or completely pays for itself using fare revenue and advertising. Norfolk's LRT will be no different. What makes or breaks a transit system is whether or not the subsidy is worth the return. If LRT can reduce SOV trips, spur land (re)development, and keep or attract employers, then it is worth the subsidy. If LRT fails to draw the ridership needed to do those things, then it is a failure and not worth the subsidy.

I think the Calgary light rail system is the most financially "successful" light rail system in North America, but as you point out, like all mass transit systems, it is stilled subsidized.

I honestly have a hard time believing that the $250 million it will take to build the Norfolk light rail line, plus the long term funding commitments required to maintain the system will yield a positive cost benefit. I seriously doubt it will substantially lower vehicle traffic, even if they were to expand the line from the naval base all the way to the ocean front. As well, the entire debate about this thing has been around the infrastructure and building costs, but I have yet to see anyone talk about the maintenance, labour, and administration costs associated with it. How is Norfolk going to pay for that long term? With reduced spending elsewhere, or with tax increases?

Edited February 8, 2007 by Glassoul

[wghent]

Interesting....

Curious, where did you look it up, or come across it? I think they'll first extend it to Pembroke first, then down the ocean front later on. They should also build a huge parking garage there when they do, so that people from the surrounding area can park their cars there and take it work in Norfolk and/or head to the oceanfront (eventually). Charge $2 for all day parking

sorry for the lapse - been working on some other stuff in Richmond. The house amndment is from Tata and provides $10 million for the right of way purchase, using the $10 million Va Beach got for their fixed route buses last year. = amendment explanation as follows: "This amendment provides $10 million the second year from the general fund to the City of Virginia Beach for the purchase of right-of-way from Norfolk Southern. The City of Virginia Beach received $10 million in 2005 to use for the purchase of bus rapid transit vehicles. Because of the ability of the vehicles in question, the City wishes to transfer that funding to purchase right-of-way from Norfolk Southern in the City of Virginia Beach. This way-of-way would be used for multi-mobile corridor including the bike trail and possible extension of the starter light rail project now about to begin in the City of Norfolk. The right-of-way goes from Norfolk City line to Birdneck Road in Virginia Beach."

The Senate amendment is by Stolle and reads: "$10,000,000 the second year from the general fund shall be made available to the Cities of Norfolk and Virginia Beach, to be shared equally between the two cities, for the acquisition of some 15.4 miles of right-of-way owned by the Norfolk Southern Corporation and located between Newtown Road and the Oceanfront."

Both made it out of subcommittee, so they are pretty much assured of being in the final budget bill.