PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[HartfordTycoon]

I couldn't disagree more. The Pro Utopia crowd knows the region is going to change, maybe even drastically, but they embrace the change. That's the difference. These people want the area to change; they are not happy with the status quo.

That's what I've been saying all along. Most of the supporters think the region needs help and that it's future was uncertain. Now they have something to look forward too and maximize the potential. A lot of people needed this, I think.

[Recchia]

I say we have no more new urban areas until we max out the ones that we already have. Plenty of vacant and underutilized parts of existing cities that could take on the growth. Plus, any new "urban" area that is created in this country is for the most part suburban in design. Until our existing cores are maxed out and we learn to build true urban areas from scratch, then no, no new "urban areas."

[HartfordTycoon]

I say we have no more new urban areas until we max out the ones that we already have. Plenty of vacant and underutilized parts of existing cities that could take on the growth. Plus, any new "urban" area that is created in this country is for the most part suburban in design. Until our existing cores are maxed out and we learn to build true urban areas from scratch, then no, no new "urban areas."

Your logic is undeniable. You always make sense though. I agree, but just don't think people will settle for that. They want a choice, not everyone wants to live in a historically established city. I just think this is a force of nature. Was Cambridge maxed out when Thomas Hooker left to found Hartford? Of course not, they just wanted to start their own thing and do it on their own terms. I don't think we can stop that from happening from time to time. Now I know it's not a parellel to this situation, but hopefully you can kind of see my point.

[Cotuit]

If Connecticut had any sort of a positive track record regarding it's existing urban areas then perhaps there could be more.

Thing is, Preston won't be urban, it will be exurban sprawl hell unless something drastic is done about zoning in the area. Judging from the pre-planning done so far in regards to this project (that would be about zero pre-planning), I wouldn't hold my breath on innovative regional zoning.

[Recchia]

Your logic is undeniable. You always make sense though. I agree, but just don't think people will settle for that. They want a choice, not everyone wants to live in a historically established city. I just think this is a force of nature. Was Cambridge maxed out when Thomas Hooker left to found Hartford? Of course not, they just wanted to start their own thing and do it on their own terms. I don't think we can stop that from happening from time to time. Now I know it's not a parellel to this situation, but hopefully you can kind of see my point.

And that'd be fine, but todays standards of building a new city are much different. They'd probly build it like Celebration, FL, a fake city with some sidewalks thrown into it that really is nothing more than a 3 unit per acre suburb in disguise. Building a new city where it is needed, however, and where it would be truly urban, would be great (like the new towns built around London when it got too overcrowded).

[damus]

I couldn't disagree more. The Pro Utopia crowd knows the region is going to change, maybe even drastically, but they embrace the change. That's the difference. These people want the area to change; they are not happy with the status quo.

They don't. They say that the character of the town will not change. I've been told that the impact will be at the hospital property, not on the other end of town. In fact, some of the pro-utopia people holding signs said this to me on Tuesday. No one wants a highway through town, no one wants big box stores. Otherwise, we'd have seen them come in 10 years ago to deal with Foxwoods traffic and growth. The state wanted to build route 2 as an expressway, and the townspeople said "no driveway to the casino" because it will "ruin the character of the town". They think they're saving the region's character by guaranteeing tax revenue from Utopia, when all they're going to get are higher taxes and more sprawling growth. Even if Preston escapes the sprawl (I think it won't), it'll be surrounded by towns that didn't. I forsee Preston as looking a lot like Darien in 20-30 years. The people who voted "yes" will have for the most part sold off their land to rich people. The "open space" (farmland) that is to be saved will likely be controlled by a hollywood type who wants to live on a ranch (like Imus, Brokaw, or Turner all do today and Reagan did before he died) while living near where he works. Bank on it. Again, I'm the zealot of this thread, but I do not see any way around one of a number of nightmare scenarios unfolding.

This will change the region. People do not understand this. They look at the casinos and probably feel this is another one of them, they always like to compare it to the casinos. It's not. The casinos, besides being smaller and with less potential to create a tourist industry by attracting day-tripping gamblers instead of family vacationers, came along at a time when layoffs and company closures could have destroyed the region's economy. They replaced the good jobs with lower paying casino jobs. The infrastructure for the workers (not the visitors) was for the most part already in place. This is much bigger, and I do not think most people grasp how big this is.

[Jerry2]

I couldn't disagree more. The Pro Utopia crowd knows the region is going to change, maybe even drastically, but they embrace the change. That's the difference. These people want the area to change; they are not happy with the status quo.

I disagree with you completely. When the pricetags come out for new roads, new highways, new schools, new housing, new utilities, increased police and fire, a lot of people are going to think twice. Minus the construction jobs that Joe Gentile and his mob-influenced pro-union buddies stand to get, the creation of jobs are low-wage crappy jobs that will attract illegal immigrants and the like and will most certainly overburden an area that is not set-up to handle them. The overall net tangible benefit of this project and the promise of true tax reform is minimal if anything.

[SOCOM]

When the pricetags come out for new roads, new highways, new schools, new housing, new utilities, increased police and fire, a lot of people are going to think twice.

No doubt about it. However, my original point still stands. The Pro Utopia crowd aren't "stupid, lazy" people. They want change - they want something big. That's why they voted for this proposal.

I think you do make a good point about the future. Many of them probably cannot grasp the far reaching effects a project of this scope (if successful) will generate. Big box, tons of surface parking, possible strain on social services, etc.

[Cotuit]

The Pro Utopia crowd aren't "stupid, lazy" people.

I wouldn't categorize people as lazy and stupid. I would categorize them as too distracted by their own lives to fully educate themselves on the issue. It came down to a question of jobs and money vs no jobs and continued high taxes. Of course people voted yes. But they were not given the fully story and did not have the time, energy, or inclination to get it.

[Jerry2]

I wouldn't categorize people as lazy and stupid. I would categorize them as too distracted by their own lives to fully educate themselves on the issue. It came down to a question of jobs and money vs no jobs and continued high taxes. Of course people voted yes. But they were not given the fully story and did not have the time, energy, or inclination to get it.

Thank-you!!!!!! It's the same reason why 90% of the US can't even point Iraq on a map, but close to 90% of the people can name the American Idols. We are primarily a nation of dimwits. And if you don't think that these dimwits that voted yes wonn't be the 1st ones to throw a fit as soon as the whole scope of this thing emerges, you are quite mistaken.

[HartfordTycoon]

Thank-you!!!!!! It's the same reason why 90% of the US can't even point Iraq on a map, but close to 90% of the people can name the American Idols. We are primarily a nation of dimwits.

I can certainly agree with this statement. We are a nation of stupid lemmings anyway you slice it.

[runawayjim]

Your logic is undeniable. You always make sense though. I agree, but just don't think people will settle for that. They want a choice, not everyone wants to live in a historically established city. I just think this is a force of nature. Was Cambridge maxed out when Thomas Hooker left to found Hartford? Of course not, they just wanted to start their own thing and do it on their own terms. I don't think we can stop that from happening from time to time. Now I know it's not a parellel to this situation, but hopefully you can kind of see my point.

here's the problem with urbanizing or suburbanizing preston. you have a city 10 minutes to the north (norwich). you have a city 15 minutes to the south (new london). neither one of those cities is in good shape right now. they need to work on those before creating more urban areas around there. it's like giving up on the cities that are in trouble and starting fresh. it doesn't work that way. the problems don't go away.

here's the problem with people, they get an idea in their head and it never goes away. a lot of people my mother's age won't go into new haven because it's a big bad city and very dangerous. yeah, maybe 10 years ago it was. it's certainly nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be. it's actually, in my opinion, the finest city in CT (and the safest of the "big 3 of CT"). same goes for the thoughts of norwich or new london... that's why people want a choice. so what are we to do? give them unlimited choice and say "biuld a city wherever you want". pretty soon, all of CT is a suburban nightmare like fairfield county.

[SOCOM]

Thank-you!!!!!! It's the same reason why 90% of the US can't even point Iraq on a map, but close to 90% of the people can name the American Idols. We are primarily a nation of dimwits. And if you don't think that these dimwits that voted yes wonn't be the 1st ones to throw a fit as soon as the whole scope of this thing emerges, you are quite mistaken.

I believe Cotuit summed it up well in saying that the Yes people voted for new jobs and $$$ while the No people voted for keeping the status quo, and preserving the character of the region.

I'll never agree with the sentiment that you subscribe to that anyone who doesn't see it my way is a dimwit. Ironically, that's something a dimwit would do.

[runawayjim]

I believe Cotuit summed it up well in saying that the Yes people voted for new jobs and $$$ while the No people voted for keeping the status quo, and preserving the character of the region.

I'll never agree with the sentiment that you subscribe to that anyone who doesn't see it my way is a dimwit. Ironically, that's something a dimwit would do.

while the yes voters might not be dimwits... i think at least some of them (probably enough to have turned the vote around) will have wished they voted the other way once the size and scope of this thing is revealed... and if not then, after it's built.

the no voters wished to keep the status quo and preserve the character of the area, but they also know that a lot of low paying jobs isn't going to help the area which is already full of low paying jobs.

the yes voters voted for money, that's it. they think that this thing is going to bring jobs that will be nicer and better for them than what's already in existence, but that's just not the case. the jobs won't pay better and i bet the region won't see the money that's been promised and talked about.

for the record, what's the average income in SE CT compared the new haven area or the hartford area? i don't have time to look it up as i have to go catch a plane now...

[Cotuit]

I believe Cotuit summed it up well in saying that the Yes people voted for new jobs and $$$ while the No people voted for keeping the status quo, and preserving the character of the region.

That's not excatly what I meant. I think the yes people were seeing the promise of jobs and money. Some of the no people where for keeping the status quo, but many of the no people saw through the promises of jobs and money and realized the jobs would be chiefly low-paying and the money isn't really there, this will cost the area a lot of money in the end.

I think it can work, and perhaps be a positive economic force, but only if serious regional planning takes place.

[SOCOM]

for the record, what's the average income in SE CT compared the new haven area or the hartford area? i don't have time to look it up as i have to go catch a plane now...

the only numbers I have offhand are from 2003 (per capita income)

Hartford metro : $38,000

New Haven metro : $36,000

Norwich/New London metro : $35,000

[SOCOM]

I think it can work, and perhaps be a positive economic force, but only if serious regional planning takes place.

If I had to sum up my official stance, that would be it. Cautiously optimistic. I do have many of the concerns of the anti Utopia crowd (abundance of low wage jobs, increase in traffic, $$$ needed for social services, increase in crime, increase in sprawl through strip malls and big box development), but I think this could be a positive force if the proper planning is in place. Probably what concerns me the most is the viability of this project. I'm not yet concinved that an indoor theme park will succeed - do they ever?

[drc72]

I feel it's more regressive. We will be generating more low income jobs. Anyone who thinks they'll be paying living wages to popcorn vendors and such is kidding themselves. More jobs at restaurants, hotels, and stores that don't pay well will come around as a result of this. The real boon will be for the construction workers, who stand to make a lot of money in the decades to come, and the people involved in Utopia. Sure, teachers and doctors will be needed, too, but the creation of so many low income jobs at the expense of the character of a region outweighs the positive growth in my opinion. I think progress would be more to limit sprawl, conserve open space, and build up in the cities and suburbs we already have instead of creating new urban areas.

I'm sure they will have many high paying jobs as well, including management positions and other high paying positions.

[HartfordTycoon]

I'm sure they will have many high paying jobs as well, including management positions and other high paying positions.

Exactly, there will be tons of living wage jobs. In this country you have to take what you can get right about now anyway. A not so great job is much better than a non-existent one.

[damus]

I'm sure they will have many high paying jobs as well, including management positions and other high paying positions.

Yes, they will have quite a few good jobs. The movie industry pays pretty well. I'm sure their arts college will have lots of good jobs. The theme park is what really bothers me. Most of the jobs at theme parks and hotels are not very good. There will be jobs created just by having all these new residents and tourists around; gas stations, supermarkets, hotels, restaurants, big box stores will all have to be built. Those will also not pay very well. It's on such a large scale that Norwich could easily double or triple in population within ten years, with most of the new residents being theme park workers and their families

[drc72]

Exactly, there will be tons of living wage jobs. In this country you have to take what you can get right about now anyway. A not so great job is much better than a non-existent one.

Absolutely! I can't see Utopia paying hamburger flipping wages to all their employees.

[damus]

These are some pretty substantial numbers. We are not talking about maybe upgrading sewage lines, or fixing a bridge. This is substantial increase in traffic and services, and for it to work, it HAS to be planned. So start focusing on survival, not dreaming.

I'll see if my brother will send a LTTE for me (only 1 per person per month) about the transportation ideas I have. Hopefully they can get into the thick skulls of the people making (stupid) decisions around here. I'll be fighting this until they break ground. Once that happens I will not be thinking of survial, I'm going to be looking to move elsewhere.

I can't believe that they are not considering more highways. I know they are unpopular with the UP crowd, but people in this country like their cars. It's great to have a great rail system with TOD, but especially when you are going to be a tourist based economy you need to cater to the customer's wants, not your own ideals.

Seriously, this area needs to be thinking as a REGION. It cannot trust the state to do the right thing. If a few towns like Preston, Norwich, New London, and Groton got toghether to try and form a MBTA or Port Authority type entity, I'm sure other towns would hop on board. I say finish the routes 2 and 2A expressways, and use tolls to pay for the maintenance of the road, discourage unneccessary use of highways, and to help pay for a regional mass transit system. This is a time for regional leaders to step up (the leaders of Preston have already failed). We should be demanding that we get that casino revenue sent down to this area to pay for improvements, NOW.

[JimSawhill]

i don't even know why i'm responding to near insults... probably because it's just after 7 and i'm still not thinking straight.

flood plains can be filled, WALLS can be built. they're turning a RURAL area into utopia in preston, what would be wrong with doing that in east hartford?

if orlando wasn't the fastest growing city in florida after disney, WHAT WAS? don't make a post calling someone wrong without posting ACTUAL FACTS. there's no point in posting to the conversation if you don't have anything INTELLIGENT or USEFUL to say.

the hospital site would be better used as housing. the taxpayers' money would be better used to pay for new schools than for roads (the roads there now handle teh current traffic just fine). bog box would be fine there also (norwich doesn't have much around it for shopping that i know of except waterford). the state should hvae tried to lure companies in rather than get more low paying jobs. that might have required that the state help pay for the site cleanup, but a company that hires intelligent people rather than the average joe would be much better in the long run for the COMMUNITY than utopia.

i don't think you really understand, but this is the last time i'm responding to you until you have something INTELLIGENT to say.

RunawayJim:

Now, you know that ENVIRONMENTALISTS would be up in arms if they FILLED in WETLANDS. East Hartford and South Windsor use the space as FARMING because you can't put ANYTHING there.

Truthfully, I would like to see an industrial park (with a boat building company) on the NSH site, to help citizens of Norwich (and the other towns in SE CT). The site does have the P&W railroad, so it would be great to have new businesses for the P&W.

I'm not AGAINST UTOPIA - nor I'm not FOR them, so far, I don't see ANYTHING that would help the ECONOMY of CT, except for UTOPIA. The NSH is on the Thames, which means if it was housing -- the homes would be 1 Million dollars. Where would the people go to work?

What I am saying is I wouldn't like to see changes in SE Connecticut, but Foxwoods is going to change the towns, because they did.

UTOPIA is a good project, however it is NOT a great project.

[JimSawhill]

Agreed. However, as far as I know, only Preston residents voted - so the majority got what they wanted.

Lets be honest. 43.5% is hardly "just almost 50%" 43.5% is a lot closer to 40% than 50%.

I'm not sure; that's why I asked the question. If he did recruit voters from out of town, than not only should the vote be cancelled, but he should be run out of town.

Now, if Joe Gentile DID get RI'ers to vote, I'll have to say he needs to leave! The more I am looking at the posts, I can see Joe is SHADY. What I want to see is more manufacturng jobs in Connecticut.

JimS

[Jerry2]

Utopia is NOT going to attract 12 million people per year. Period.That's more than Disneyworld, Disneyland, and every other theme park in the world. I have nothing more to add to this subject anymore. All I can say is that the environmentalists are prepared to take action when and if the full scope of his plans really come out...Count on me to help you out Damus!