PROPOSED: Utopia Project

[damus]

I agree. Maybe, if done right (personal feelings aside) it may prove to be successful even to you and many other opponents. If this thing can get Norwich back on it's feet, I think that would be worth it anyway. When Norwich was thriving I am sure most thought it would continue to grow. Now it can resume growth. Norwich could become one of the hottest cities in the Northeast which would be great in my opinion. DT Norwich could be completely revitalized with the older structures restored to the original splendor and new structures built to complement them. Everyone has to accept and make the best of this. I say you should stay on them and do your part to make sure that smart growth strategies are applied and that sprawl is limited to the best extent possible.

Cotuit should and will probably come around and move this to the Utopia thread...

I'm still against it turning this rural town into something it shouldn't be and do not want to see Norwich take on tens of thousands of more immigrants and their kids in the school system. ESL is expensive. Even if they were all english speaking, property taxes residents (the ones who actually own homes) pay will not offset just the cost to educate the kids.

Norwich needs a good city planner, the region needs someone or a team. Norwich will not be rich like it was, theme park jobs just don't pay well. Best case they use "smart growth" strategies. They can perhaps lure a business park to one of the remaining 100+ acre sites. I'm sure if anything goes in the Uncas on Thames it'll be tourist related and geared to the uppity types. It's adjacent to the Norwich Golf course and the Norwich Inn & Spa, so something like what Hemisphere proposed for the Norwich Hospital property might work. I really do not think the people know what they have gotten themselves into with this Utopia thing. The region will be unrecognizable in 20-30 years.

[HartfordTycoon]

Cotuit should and will probably come around and move this to the Utopia thread...

I'm still against it turning this rural town into something it shouldn't be and do not want to see Norwich take on tens of thousands of more immigrants and their kids in the school system. ESL is expensive. Even if they were all english speaking, property taxes residents (the ones who actually own homes) pay will not offset just the cost to educate the kids.

Norwich needs a good city planner, the region needs someone or a team. Norwich will not be rich like it was, theme park jobs just don't pay well. Best case they use "smart growth" strategies. They can perhaps lure a business park to one of the remaining 100+ acre sites. I'm sure if anything goes in the Uncas on Thames it'll be tourist related and geared to the uppity types. It's adjacent to the Norwich Golf course and the Norwich Inn & Spa, so something like what Hemisphere proposed for the Norwich Hospital property might work. I really do not think the people know what they have gotten themselves into with this Utopia thing. The region will be unrecognizable in 20-30 years.

If it was not built the region also could have been much worse off in in 20-30 years. Not saying Utopia will surely work, but it's speculation to say that what it will be in 20-30 years will be better or worse. It will be different. Everything could have gone to hell in 20 or 30 years without a catalyst for change. We just don't really know.

This should be moved, I know.

[drc72]

I don't care what the town voted for with the initial proposal. This still has to clear more bureaucratic red tape than Katrina. I still don't think it has a chance.

JimSawhill-I have nothing more to say to you except that....One colossal Disney-development might work in Orlando where there was 1000 sq. miles of flat land. It won't work here. True tax reform and making states more attractive to business requires institutional changes and investing on what makes a region unique.(density)

I'm confused what other bureacratic hurdles does Utopia have to go through? I thought getting to last night's vote was the biggest hurdle? This sounds like pretty much a done deal. Anyways I'm glad it went through. It's about time where seeing some major economic development.

[drc72]

i don't think anyone from out of town should have been holding vote yes signs (or vote no signs for that matter). it goes to show that they don't really care about the region, nor do most people from outside the region even really know much about it.

i've said it before and i'll say it again (although some of the pics in the galleries on the norwich bulletin site show just how rural it is), if you haven't spent any time down there, you should. you'll realize why so many people are against it.

and the vote really proved that nearly half the town did not want utopia.

The voters had spoken and this is what they want, even if the vote was close. Besides if the majority of people really wanted this to fail, they would of came out in droves and Utopia would of failed miserably. It wouldn't even be a close contest! Democracy is good like that.

[damus]

I'm confused what other bureacratic hurdles does Utopia have to go through? I thought getting to last night's vote was the biggest hurdle? This sounds like pretty much a done deal. Anyways I'm glad it went through. It's about time where seeing some major economic development.

They now have a lot of hurdles, lots of deadlines to meet.

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/604210312

Before the town notifies the state it wants to exercise its option to buy the former Norwich Hospital land, Utopia must meet 28 conditions within 180 days of the effective agreement date. The most significant requirements include:

- Completion of a phase three environmental study and remedial action and demolition plan.

- Guarantee of the cleanup either through a cash escrow account or a qualifying letter of credit; a policy of cost-cap insurance to cover cost overruns.

- Confirmation from the state it will make Utopia, and not the town, responsible for the environmental conditions and remediation.

- A tax agreement from Utopia guaranteeing $12 million, or the first four years of such fees, upon closing.

- A $1.3 million deposit by Utopia in escrow to cover the town's soft costs, such as legal fees.

If these conditions are met, the town would proceed to close on the property with the state and then close on the sale of the land to Utopia.

Utopia must then complete the remediation at a cost of $35 million to $50 million and close on $900 million in development financing after placing an additional $3.7 million in escrow for the town's soft costs.

Construction is not permitted until Utopia completes its master plan, which must address the impact on the town and be completed and approved within 18 months of acquiring the property. Utopia must also secure town, state and federal permits.

At this point, only the remediation is guaranteed to the town. If Utopia fails on any other point, Preston has the right to foreclose on the property.

I might actually start going to those Preston Residents for Responsible Development meetings. As runawayjim said... it's not over. The thing is, this vote was the only time when quality of life impact could have been a consideration.

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/605210382

[runawayjim]

They now have a lot of hurdles, lots of deadlines to meet. I guess right now they're supposed to be coming up with the business plan and feasibility study.

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/604210312

I might actually start going to those Preston Residents for Responsible Development meetings. As runawayjim said... it's not over. The thing is, this vote was the only time when quality of life impact could have been a consideration.

i suggest you do go to those meetings. and that vote was not the only time quality of life impact could've been a consideration. they have to be able to come up with a plan to deal with the traffic.

and yes, there are some strict guidelines they need to follow... and i'm sure those could change at any time (for th better or worse).

[Cotuit]

I'm confused what other bureacratic hurdles does Utopia have to go through?

This is New England, there's many many many beauricratic hurdles to come.

[drc72]

This is New England, there's many many many beauricratic hurdles to come.

I suppose there is.

[Jerry2]

I suppose there is.

The infrastructure doesn't exist in that location for this style of development. Utilities,roads,highways, environmental studies, other misc. impact studies all have to be done to get a shovel in the ground. The impact of this development will overburden city services,schools,police, etc. This is all an initial proposal. Just because resident voters initially approved it doesn't mean it's going to break ground. Wait until the final figures come out on this deal! The CT casinos give over 100 million to the state and taxes still haven't been reduced. This development is getting the thumbs up from the foolish people who think that the end result would be lower taxes for all. When the net tangible benefit doesn't produce any real tax reform, you will see opinions sway. With that said, I would still favor the project if they brought to a more urban area with the infrastructure already in place that could withstand the increased need for city services.

[damus]

With that said, I would still favor the project if they brought to a more urban area with the infrastructure already in place that could withstand the increased need for city services.

One of the big union guys actually laughed at my asking "why not put it in a more developed area like, say where rentschler field went in over in East Hartford". He says "well that was owned by Pratt & Whitney". Apparantly a development of this size could only be built on state owned land...

[Cotuit]

This development is getting the thumbs up from the foolish people who think that the end result would be lower taxes for all.

Same as the people in Johnston who are all gah-gah about Trump at the Dump.

[runawayjim]

Same as the people in Johnston who are all gah-gah about Trump at the Dump.

i know people in johnston who are just lazy and think that trump would be good for the whole area and force the dunk and ppac to compete better.

i have no issues with a sole casino, but the other stuff that goes along with it will ruin the cultural activities in providence.

[damus]

i know people in johnston who are just lazy and think that trump would be good for the whole area and force the dunk and ppac to compete better.

i have no issues with a sole casino, but the other stuff that goes along with it will ruin the cultural activities in providence.

off topic again, but crimes related to the casino such as burglaries and embezzlement have really seen an increase in the Norwich area in the last 15 years. Town tax collectors and a woman who worked at the local chevy dealer were among those who were caught embezzling over the years. My dad's office was robbed, and there have been a few attempted robberies over the years. Now he finally moved into a more secure building. My parent's neighbors were robbed. Next door to where I live, my great uncle had parked his daughter's truck while he was visiting from upstate NY and left the keys in them. Foolish, I know, but when he still lived around here it wasn't uncommon to do that and he still does (or did) it at home. On the 2nd night he was here, his truck disappeared and was found in a river. The same morning some people were in my kitchen and then I yelled out (thinking it was one of the relatives who come and go as they please) and they left before I could see who it was. This morning I found a piece of saran wrap with cocaine residue on it on the ground next to my mailbox. This is not country stuff, this is city stuff. It wasn't that common until now that the casinos are around.

[runawayjim]

off topic again, but crimes related to the casino such as burglaries and embezzlement have really seen an increase in the Norwich area in the last 15 years. Town tax collectors and a woman who worked at the local chevy dealer were among those who were caught embezzling over the years. My dad's office was robbed, and there have been a few attempted robberies over the years. Now he finally moved into a more secure building. My parent's neighbors were robbed. Next door to where I live, my great uncle had parked his daughter's truck while he was visiting from upstate NY and left the keys in them. Foolish, I know, but when he still lived around here it wasn't uncommon to do that and he still does (or did) it at home. On the 2nd night he was here, his truck disappeared and was found in a river. The same morning some people were in my kitchen and then I yelled out (thinking it was one of the relatives who come and go as they please) and they left before I could see who it was. This morning I found a piece of saran wrap with cocaine residue on it on the ground next to my mailbox. This is not country stuff, this is city stuff. It wasn't that common until now that the casinos are around.

leaving a house unlocked or keys in an unlocked vehicle isn't smart, no matter where you are.

and drug problems are just as common in the suburbs and rural areas are they are in the city.

expect that sort of crime to get worse with utopia though (to bring us back on topic).

[SOCOM]

I do not appreciate that sarcasm. I do not like to get into things because I am afraid of them. They have lawyers and I do not want to be sued for slander. When I do mention some of the stuff I know about them, I try to make it vague as to not point out everyone. I do not always follow my own rule, though.

I apologize if I offended you. I just think it sucks that we don't have any input from pro Utopia residents, because we are only getting one side of the story. I find myself having to defend Mr. Gentile and his clan, and I don't even like the guy.

I hope you continue to go to the meetings and voice your opinion. In fact, now is when it matters most. This project was never in doubt of passing, so now it's time to make people aware of the lack of infrastructure and the real impact a development of this size will have.

[damus]

I apologize if I offended you. I just think it sucks that we don't have any input from pro Utopia residents, because we are only getting one side of the story. I find myself having to defend Mr. Gentile and his clan, and I don't even like the guy.

I hope you continue to go to the meetings and voice your opinion. In fact, now is when it matters most. This project was never in doubt of passing, so now it's time to make people aware of the lack of infrastructure and the real impact a development of this size will have.

Yeah.... it is a heated debate. I like how it's still somewhat civil around here. Keep in mind that I'm going to be the topic's zealot and will not budge. I do like to see debate here, though. I actually went from on the fence leaning towards yes in part because I'm here, in part because Joe Gentile asked me to go the the meetings where I found out the flaws in the project; and in part because Joe G, and most of his inner cirlce, is childish and whenever he has been presented with an argument that he can't spin he has resorted to personal insults. The latter is what really got me going against this project. Once I started reading the old Day articles about this, my position was only strengthened. I do not hate or dislike anyone on here for liking the project. There are pros and cons. I think the cons outweigh the pros.

I really think the only intelligent opinions in favor of Utopia are all about the money anyways. Some people, probably quoted Joe G as he said this to me, say that "the casinos are already here, they'll build this stuff either way", which I do not buy. Sampson (union guy, big supporter) and I could've argued back and forth all day because we have different core beliefs. He's all for the money, and I think this project made me truely realize that money isn't everything in life.

[damus]

On maps, a section of Preston that extends into the Thames River is called Happyland, which sounds like it could be the home of some big theme park.

But some residents living in the area would be happier if the peninsula could be isolated from Utopia, the proposed $1.6 billion entertainment complex the town's voters endorsed Tuesday in a referendum.

http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=da1e5dbe-...74-8e7bee27ec00

But how ready is the region? Utopia Chief Financial Officer Joseph Gentile said his $1.6 billion project will employ 22,000 people and that 4,700 others will be employed building it.

Where will they come from? And where will they live?

Business and labor leaders say the project has the potential to substantially expand the region's economy and are confident any challenges can be overcome.

...

Foxwoods Resort Casino and Mohegan Sun have depended on an immigration of new workers from outside the region, and even outside the country, to fill their staffing needs. But the result has been a shortage of housing, particularly rental housing, that a regional study concluded will not abate without a 35 percent increase in construction of affordable rental units. And that study did not consider the effect of a Utopia work force.

Renee Main of the Builders Association of Eastern Connecticut said her organization is concerned about the current lack of houses, apartments and condominiums in the area to support a potential tidal wave of 22,000 new families.

.

..

Congdon, the Preston first selectman, said the revenues generated by such special taxes or surcharges could be substantial, rivaling the casino slot revenues, which annually total about $435 million.

Possible uses for such money, say the two leaders, could include:

[beerbeer]

It's a go. Progress always comes at a price but his will be a tremedous asset for Connecticut.

[damus]

I feel it's more regressive. We will be generating more low income jobs. Anyone who thinks they'll be paying living wages to popcorn vendors and such is kidding themselves. More jobs at restaurants, hotels, and stores that don't pay well will come around as a result of this. The real boon will be for the construction workers, who stand to make a lot of money in the decades to come, and the people involved in Utopia. Sure, teachers and doctors will be needed, too, but the creation of so many low income jobs at the expense of the character of a region outweighs the positive growth in my opinion. I think progress would be more to limit sprawl, conserve open space, and build up in the cities and suburbs we already have instead of creating new urban areas.

[HartfordTycoon]

I feel it's more regressive. We will be generating more low income jobs. Anyone who thinks they'll be paying living wages to popcorn vendors and such is kidding themselves. More jobs at restaurants, hotels, and stores that don't pay well will come around as a result of this. The real boon will be for the construction workers, who stand to make a lot of money in the decades to come, and the people involved in Utopia. Sure, teachers and doctors will be needed, too, but the creation of so many low income jobs at the expense of the character of a region outweighs the positive growth in my opinion. I think progress would be more to limit sprawl, conserve open space, and build up in the cities and suburbs we already have instead of creating new urban areas.

I do not want to come off sounding stupid or arrogant, but what is wrong with creating a new urban area? Is the US supposed be done doing that or something? Shouldn't new urban areas be allowed as we do continue to grow as a nation? I'm sure China is building new urban areas everyday.

[runawayjim]

I do not want to come off sounding stupid or arrogant, but what is wrong with creating a new urban area? Is the US supposed be done doing that or something? Shouldn't new urban areas be allowed as we do continue to grow as a nation? I'm sure China is building new urban areas everyday.

creating a new urban area in a region that already has a lot of urban areas and could benefit more by building up some of those urban areas rather than building on open space is not a good thing.

the US has plenty of new urban areas in parts of the country that are mostly rural. those area can use new urban areas and could benefit from building up (although many of those tend to build the urban areas out rather than up).

this becomes an urban area with very few mid and high level jobs. the vast majority of the jobs this thing will create are, like damus said, low paying jobs... popcorn vendors, gift shop employees, maintenance workers, etc. the school part of it will bring in some academics, but i don't imagine there will be a lot. this is not good for an area that is already full of low paying jobs and low income families. the only benefit the state gets out of this is money. nothing more than that. had a company, like maybe biotech, moved in, it would create jobs that require advanced degrees. that benefits the state by bringing in the money from the company, and having better paying jobs.

[Jerry2]

I do not want to come off sounding stupid or arrogant, but what is wrong with creating a new urban area? Is the US supposed be done doing that or something? Shouldn't new urban areas be allowed as we do continue to grow as a nation? I'm sure China is building new urban areas everyday.

Are you serious?

[HartfordTycoon]

creating a new urban area in a region that already has a lot of urban areas and could benefit more by building up some of those urban areas rather than building on open space is not a good thing.

the US has plenty of new urban areas in parts of the country that are mostly rural. those area can use new urban areas and could benefit from building up (although many of those tend to build the urban areas out rather than up).

this becomes an urban area with very few mid and high level jobs. the vast majority of the jobs this thing will create are, like damus said, low paying jobs... popcorn vendors, gift shop employees, maintenance workers, etc. the school part of it will bring in some academics, but i don't imagine there will be a lot. this is not good for an area that is already full of low paying jobs and low income families. the only benefit the state gets out of this is money. nothing more than that. had a company, like maybe biotech, moved in, it would create jobs that require advanced degrees. that benefits the state by bringing in the money from the company, and having better paying jobs.

OK, but a biotech doesn't need 420 acres. We can and will still encourage more business development in SE CT. I think with an overall growth trend in the area, it will be easier to attract a corporation anyway. How many businesses relocated to or established a presence in Orlando that more than likely wouldn't be there if the area did not experience tremendous growth? I don't know, so if someone with more knowledge could fill me in I'd appreciate it.

Are you serious?

Lighten up. Halfway. The China thing is a joke. I was just asking a question regarding growth. Is CT supposed to have all of the Urban areas its ever going to have already? Obviously not, because Utopia will create a new one. The fact is like it or not, as long as we are experiencing population growth, new urban areas will be created. I don't see how they wouldn't be. Maybe you do and can fill me in.

[damus]

I'd have sent out a letter to the editor today based upon what I already said in a different thread, only with a few tweaks for the papers. The letters I did get in made me a pretty big favorite of the anti-utopia crowd and someone that everyone on the other side for some creepy reason knew upon arrival. I think they might have an enemies list somewhere with my name and picture on it, and I'm 100% serious about that.

They don't want to "put their eggs in one basket", but are saying nothing about completing route 2. Like it or not, we live in an auto-oriented society and in a region that will be ever more dependend on tourism people will want to come in with their cars. If there is a good transit system (fixed rail), I'm sure a good chunk of the visitors will use that, but you will never see everyone using that. Why not take route 2 through Mohegan Park, digging a shallow tunnel with a deck over it for the proposed Chelsea Gardens? I think that would be perfect. After that, you're only cutting through a small number of housing units in Greenville and the east side.

In Preston, when you look at a map, there is still a ton of open space between Brickyard, Miller, and Branch Hill roads, which are the three north-south roads between Norwich and rt 164. Once Utopia is in, development will be popping up everywhere no matter what they try to do, so they might as well do it right with a mix of highway and rail.

There is going to be an "I told you so" moment in the decades to come if Utopia is a success. If everyone knew the potential impact this could have on the region, the Utopia vote would've been a landslide in favor of "NO". The region will not look anything like it does today. We might as well start planning the "new cities" of New London County today. I say a light rail loop going up the Thames, down the route 2 corridor to Westerly, and back along the shoreline stopping in Mystic and the EB/Pfizer area in Groton would be a great thing for the region. Unfortunately, I also see eminent domain and the taking of people's houses for highway and light rail construction happening as a result. If anyone has any comments about those points, please post them here.

[SOCOM]

If everyone knew the potential impact this could have on the region, the Utopia vote would've been a landslide in favor of "NO".

I couldn't disagree more. The Pro Utopia crowd knows the region is going to change, maybe even drastically, but they embrace the change. That's the difference. These people want the area to change; they are not happy with the status quo.