SouthEnd High-Rise Projects

[ArchiCLT]

[I was making this meme while @Urbs42 sent their message.]

 

[15895]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:53 PM, j-man said:

Really to JasonThomasCLT,  moreso than a reply to this specific post.

Some (too many) local CLT developers can't be bothered to even post renderings of their projects, can't be bothered to have community input (whether in the form of community forums or more preferably neighborhood organizations & stakeholders [in other words, excluding NIMBY groups). There are also Charlotte boosters who will never have anything constructively critical to say because of their "it's better than nothing" philosophy, then there are some who have personal interest in not criticizing local developers. There is a lack of balance sometimes between Developers interest and community interest. 

I think the perfect contrast to this day is Tryon Place/Ally Center & Novel Stonewall versus the Legacy Union developments. One (crescent) had a ton of community input, the other isn't even releasing a rendering of a building under construction. Crescent did a great job along Stonewall. So far, Legacy Union is simply a "better than nothing"/"At least there are more jobs". Crescent is value-adding to the community and creates a sense of community. Legacy Union is a tall - depressing - office park (so far) that looks pretty from afar.  Thank God for Crescent and several other developers who do try to blend in with the urban fabric and create a sense of community.

An off-topic rant but the JasonThomasClt screenshot posts triggered me haha.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

The rail trail is beyond its capacity so it is no longer a useful (or safe) bike route. We need protected lanes.

Agree. I know the rail trail doesn’t have sidewalks on both sides of the tracks for the entire rail trail but always thought it would have been cool one side was for cyclists and the other side for joggers/walkers. Or at least made the sidewalk wide enough to separate riders/walkers like the Brooklyn bridge. But protected bike lanes in south end would be awesome, esp for the safety of the riders. 

[atlrvr]

https://charlottenc.gov/Projects/Documents/FinalReportandRecommendations.pdf

^^^ please refer to this for S Tryon street design plans (pages 12-13)

Developers are required to either built out or reserve right of way for the Near Term plan.  I believe at some point the city will come back in and develop the long term plan (which includes raised bike lanes).

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Really to JasonThomasCLT,  moreso than a reply to this specific post.

Some (too many) local CLT developers can't be bothered to even post renderings of their projects, can't be bothered to have community input (whether in the form of community forums or more preferably neighborhood organizations & stakeholders [in other words, excluding NIMBY groups). There are also Charlotte boosters who will never have anything constructively critical to say because of their "it's better than nothing" philosophy, then there are some who have personal interest in not criticizing local developers. There is a lack of balance sometimes between Developers interest and community interest. 

I think the perfect contrast to this day is Tryon Place/Ally Center & Novel Stonewall versus the Legacy Union developments. One (crescent) had a ton of community input, the other isn't even releasing a rendering of a building under construction. Crescent did a great job along Stonewall. So far, Legacy Union is simply a "better than nothing"/"At least there are more jobs". Crescent is value-adding to the community and creates a sense of community. Legacy Union is a tall - depressing - office park (so far) that looks pretty from afar.  Thank God for Crescent and several other developers who do try to blend in with the urban fabric and create a sense of community.

An off-topic rant but the JasonThomasClt screenshot posts triggered me haha.

 

If there's community consensus to have input into individual project design, then such input should be codified.  That's the systematic way to go about this.  Absent that, we just have a poster's rant decrying design features that may or may not be consistently applied.  JasonThomasCLT appears to rant every time a mid-rise or high-rise within walking distance of rail lacks ground-floor retail.  I've seen many examples in Munich and Berlin where buildings, especially residential, have living spaces all the way to the ground.   Dead walls - bad.  But living spaces at ground level with windows and other design accoutrements to be pleasant or inviting to pedestrians can be good.  One need not be beckoned to spend money at every turn just to create an environment for walkability.

Having said that, there is plenty room for improving the pedestrian experience all around center city after years of neglect and abuse.  I credit anyone who's raising awareness of the essentials of urban-pedestrian accommodation.  I know not perfect, but for example, the Morehead project will at least significantly widen the sidewalk lining Morehead, even if no ground-floor shopping places or food places.  Still a win for pedestrians.

Edited May 10, 2022 by RANYC

[CTiger]

I'm kind of flummoxed by the "not everywhere needs retail" sentiment towards new development in Southend.  Like it or not, Southend is becoming the core of the city for entertainment, nightlife, and hopefully one day shopping.   If you want to create a cohesive district where people can do all of these things in a day, you need to make it dense and walkable.   The more buildings without retail, the more the retail will be forced to sprawl and become less desirable.  Sure, not every building in Southend needs retail, but there are also already plenty of buildings without it.  We don't need to keep building more.  Aren't you guys sick of telling out of towners that if they want to do some shopping they have to go to the mall?  

Also, these buildings being put up aren't temporary.  Charlotte is growing fast, and I think we are going to look at all these buildings in the not-to-distant future with a "thats a shame, a bar, shop, or restaurant would kill it there" attitude. 

[RANYC]

19 minutes ago, CTiger said:

I'm kind of flummoxed by the "not everywhere needs retail" sentiment towards new development in Southend.  Like it or not, Southend is becoming the core of the city for entertainment, nightlife, and hopefully one day shopping.   If you want to create a cohesive district where people can do all of these things in a day, you need to make it dense and walkable.   The more buildings without retail, the more the retail will be forced to sprawl and become less desirable.  Sure, not every building in Southend needs retail, but there are also already plenty of buildings without it.  We don't need to keep building more.  Aren't you guys sick of telling out of towners that if they want to do some shopping they have to go to the mall?  

Also, these buildings being put up aren't temporary.  Charlotte is growing fast, and I think we are going to look at all these buildings in the not-to-distant future with a "thats a shame, a bar, shop, or restaurant would kill it there" attitude. 

It’s not codified into law that every project in south end needs retail.  If that’s what you want, advocate for a binding design requirement, but I personally don’t find a one-sided public fleecing on instagram to be either effective or fair.  

Had a convo with a consultant to developers who told me not every developer has the same experience securing financing for a mixed-use project that’s largely residential but includes retail.  The biggest developers with big portfolios can do it, but if you’re trying to create an eclectic landscape of developers, mixed use requirements do complicate financing somewhat and can work against smaller developers or “emerging developers.”  Not sure as I only spoke with one person and not at all an expert on project financing.

Ultimately I want south end to prioritize walkability, but I don’t think that means retail along every stretch.  Some retail, yes.  But leaving it up to private developers to determine what the market can bear at a point in time, as long as pedestrian space and safety are paramount.

Edited May 10, 2022 by RANYC

[15895]

Yeah, private developers always know best.  Are there still grass fields a few blocks away from Trade/Tryon? 

Where has Development boomed in urban Charlotte? In the areas that the community and government invested in and had enough power to do what it needed to do. Where are the stagnant areas? Places where certain developers have too much land. Even with some government $$$, these Private Developers have proved incompetent when they hold large areas of land in Charlotte - primarily because they act in their own private interest. You think it was an accident Stonewall St. or 3rd Ward just randomly exploded in activity? When did these large-scale office towers start to come to SouthEnd? After the city invested in rail, the rail trail and not only that, but organizations such as Center City Partners worked in community engagement helping provide grants to small businesses, heavily promoting small business, the art installations along the rail trail, etc. That was all by design and a vision from community organizations, local civic involvement and government resources. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[atlrvr]

I can speak with significant experience on multi-family financing (years in banking arranging equity for apartments and now many more years investing in the debt of apartments as well as other property types) and I can say the very first thing a lender will do when they see a retail in a project is go (ok, if I just assume the retail doesn't generate any revenue, does this project still work?)  If the answer to that is "yes", then sure, ez-pz, if the answer is "no", then it's followed by a loud audible groan.

Not saying it can't be done, but depending on the size of the loan, the history of the borrower, the terms of the loan, etc etc the financing costs just might not be worth it, especially if the alternative is ground floor apartments where the lender is going to give full credit for projected revenues on those additional units.

Is it lazy?  Sure, I guess, but most lending decisions are made on stress testing of projected rents, and it's much easier to project say, apartment occupancy going from 95% to 85% in the complex and rents declining by 25% than it is to figure out if the ground-floor restaurant fails in a recession, what is the likelihood that a new tenant will chose to open a new concept there within a reasonable time frame.

As Charlotte urbanizes, and retail becomes more common (and therefore lender sample sizes of Charlotte urban retail trends  become more robust) the situation will probably improve.

[RANYC]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:00 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Yeah, private developers always know best.  Are there still grass fields a few blocks away from Trade/Tryon? 

Where has Development boomed in urban Charlotte? In the areas that the community and government invested in and had enough power to do what it needed to do. Where are the stagnant areas? Places where certain developers have too much land. Even with some government $$$, these Private Developers have proved incompetent when they hold large areas of land in Charlotte - primarily because they act in their own private interest. You think it was an accident Stonewall St. or 3rd Ward just randomly exploded in activity? When did these large-scale office towers start to come to SouthEnd? After the city invested in rail, the rail trail and not only that, but organizations such as Center City Partners worked in community engagement helping provide grants to small businesses, heavily promoting small business, the art installations along the rail trail, etc. That was all by design and a vision from community organizations, local civic involvement and government resources. 

 

 

 

 

 

So what are you advocating for?  A design committee for development?  A law mandating ground-level retail?   Who's incompetent - do you mean Levine or is that a broader, large-scale indictment of private developers in Charlotte?  Not sure there's a contest pitting private developers against the government, but I do know that in Charlotte, private developers are bound by certain governmental regulations but are also given a certain measure of discretion.  Away from accountability to government, however, most private developers are also "regulated" by their lenders and investors and financial models in use to persuade various stakeholders of expected returns on capital.

To tie this back, I think you can have pedestrian-scale and accessibility without ground-level retail mandates on every building.  I also don't find it responsible or sustainable to rebuke projects on instagram without perhaps getting the full picture of why a developer has chosen a particular mix of uses, and without understanding ways in which the project will service the pedestrian without asking them to eat or shop.

Edited May 12, 2022 by RANYC

[RANYC]

7 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I can speak with significant experience on multi-family financing (years in banking arranging equity for apartments and now many more years investing in the debt of apartments as well as other property types) and I can say the very first thing a lender will do when they see a retail in a project is go (ok, if I just assume the retail doesn't generate any revenue, does this project still work?)  If the answer to that is "yes", then sure, ez-pz, if the answer is "no", then it's followed by a loud audible groan.

Not saying it can't be done, but depending on the size of the loan, the history of the borrower, the terms of the loan, etc etc the financing costs just might not be worth it, especially if the alternative is ground floor apartments where the lender is going to give full credit for projected revenues on those additional units.

Is it lazy?  Sure, I guess, but most lending decisions are made on stress testing of projected rents, and it's much easier to project say, apartment occupancy going from 95% to 85% in the complex and rents declining by 25% than it is to figure out if the ground-floor restaurant fails in a recession, what is the likelihood that a new tenant will chose to open a new concept there within a reasonable time frame.

As Charlotte urbanizes, and retail becomes more common (and therefore lender sample sizes of Charlotte urban retail trends  become more robust) the situation will probably improve.

OK, thank you.  Super insightful.  I imagine as market conditions change and areas mature as truly walkable and urban, one can retrofit ground floors for retail, with an easier time of financing the retrofit.

[15895]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

So what are you advocating for?  A design committee for development?  A law mandating ground-level retail?   Who's incompetent - do you mean Levine or is that a broader, large-scale indictment of private developers in Charlotte?  Not sure there's a contest pitting private developers against the government, but I do know that in Charlotte, private developers are bound by certain governmental regulations but are also given a certain measure of discretion.  Away from accountability to government, however, most private developers are also "regulated" by their lenders and investors and financial models in use to persuade various stakeholders of expected returns on capital.

To tie this back, I think you can have pedestrian-scale and accessibility without ground-level retail mandates on every building.  I also don't find it responsible or sustainable to fleece projects on instagram without perhaps getting the full picture of why a developer has chosen a particular mix of uses, and without understanding ways in which the project will service the pedestrian without asking them to eat or shop.

SouthEnd was built on vision from civic leaders. There’s a reason why there are now office towers sprouting up in SouthEnd and not in the past. The city has invested in SouthEnd, small businesses have, artist have, Center City Partners adopted a framework and helped create SouthEnd’s image as a destination. You don’t even have to be fancy to make a difference. Someone could go around planting sunflowers or paint a mural and that’s as impactful. Some people will put a little book exchange thing in their yards for people to take a book and leave one. SouthEnd is successful because of a mix of people, non-profit organizations, government, artists, small businesses and yes - developers. 

I never said that every building should have retail. There are developments I think that suck from an urban environment standpoint that have empty retail units. 

You said Jason Thomas complains if a building doesn’t always have retail spaces. I’m pretty sure I’ve interacted with the guy a while ago and I just have a hard time believing he’s as naive as you’re making him out to be… I have a hard time believing he’d ever be so simple to simply think it better have retail or it’s a bust. I feel like he has a pretty robust, holistic and wide vision in urban planning. I don’t know how that translates to me thinking everything should have retail. 

What I’ve advocated for on this board has always been robust uses. K-12 education in center city, bike lanes, etc. You can even be a private citizen and plant sunflowers, paint a mural, put a little library book exchange post in your yard and add to the urban fabric and community… The things I’m most against is things that are out of context or don’t add to the urban environment. But I’m not a simple person who would say “put retail in every building” (fyi, I work in structured CMBS Multifamily agency financing. I know all to well about Multifamily real estate so I also am not naive in knowing the financing of these properties.)

I view urban planning as different from commercial real estate development.  The point of my previous posts were that there are more angles than the angle from an commercial real estate developers angle. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT Development]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:11 PM, atlrvr said:

I can speak with significant experience on multi-family financing (years in banking arranging equity for apartments and now many more years investing in the debt of apartments as well as other property types) and I can say the very first thing a lender will do when they see a retail in a project is go (ok, if I just assume the retail doesn't generate any revenue, does this project still work?)  If the answer to that is "yes", then sure, ez-pz, if the answer is "no", then it's followed by a loud audible groan.

Not saying it can't be done, but depending on the size of the loan, the history of the borrower, the terms of the loan, etc etc the financing costs just might not be worth it, especially if the alternative is ground floor apartments where the lender is going to give full credit for projected revenues on those additional units.

Is it lazy?  Sure, I guess, but most lending decisions are made on stress testing of projected rents, and it's much easier to project say, apartment occupancy going from 95% to 85% in the complex and rents declining by 25% than it is to figure out if the ground-floor restaurant fails in a recession, what is the likelihood that a new tenant will chose to open a new concept there within a reasonable time frame.

As Charlotte urbanizes, and retail becomes more common (and therefore lender sample sizes of Charlotte urban retail trends  become more robust) the situation will probably improve.

But meanwhile shell space earning no income is the exact same as lobby space, largely useless amenities and leasing space not earning revenue. 

[CLTProductions]

remove

Edited May 12, 2022 by Jt282506

[atlrvr]

11 hours ago, CLT Development said:

But meanwhile shell space earning no income is the exact same as lobby space, largely useless amenities and leasing space not earning revenue. 

Sort of....a lender would look at it like this:

New construction South End mid-rise 1BR rents are ($1500-$2200) <<I'm guessing on this range, but probably close

Developer will submit pro forma that they can achieve $2000/mo for 1Br.  Lender is going to want to know why they think they are on the upper end of that range.

Factors into that will be :
Unit size
Parking
Exact Location (though not as impactful as you might imagine)
Amenities**

^^^^ ** if a developer wants to claim they can charge at the upper end of that range, then they better offer saltwater pool, cinema, coffee lounge, bar/lounge, dog washing, yoga deck, experimental kitchen, etc etc

The ascribed value of those useless amenities is captured in the per/unit rent that a lender is going to agree is reasonable.

A different way of financing a project is the David Furman/Centro approach, which is the micro retail is the amenity AND generates cash flow as well.  This works in the sense that he has to capitalize more of the project with greater share of equity (and less debt), but he can generate higher equity returns because of less expensive building costs (smaller units and fewer amenities) and the realized cash flows will run higher than a debt lender would conservatively assume (high rents/sf but still affordable in the local market context, and believing the most micro-retail tenants will survive)

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

A different way of financing a project is the David Furman/Centro approach, which is the micro retail is the amenity AND generates cash flow as well.  This works in the sense that he has to capitalize more of the project with greater share of equity (and less debt), but he can generate higher equity returns because of less expensive building costs (smaller units and fewer amenities) and the realized cash flows will run higher than a debt lender would conservatively assume (high rents/sf but still affordable in the local market context, and believing the most micro-retail tenants will survive)

I don’t want to take us away from a very interesting discussion, but I want to ask, does anyone have a sense of how Furman’s micro-retail experiment is working? It appears to have been fully occupied for a while now, but when I am over there it feels like more stuff is closed than open. 

Occupancy suggests we could use more of this scale of retail, but I’ll bet others here know more than I do.

[Reverie39]

On 5/10/2022 at 4:00 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Yeah, private developers always know best.  Are there still grass fields a few blocks away from Trade/Tryon? 

Where has Development boomed in urban Charlotte? In the areas that the community and government invested in and had enough power to do what it needed to do. Where are the stagnant areas? Places where certain developers have too much land. Even with some government $$$, these Private Developers have proved incompetent when they hold large areas of land in Charlotte - primarily because they act in their own private interest. You think it was an accident Stonewall St. or 3rd Ward just randomly exploded in activity? When did these large-scale office towers start to come to SouthEnd? After the city invested in rail, the rail trail and not only that, but organizations such as Center City Partners worked in community engagement helping provide grants to small businesses, heavily promoting small business, the art installations along the rail trail, etc. That was all by design and a vision from community organizations, local civic involvement and government resources. 

 

 

 

 

 

God all that flat nothingness makes me want to puke. Charlotte is a big East Coast city now, and big East Coast cities don't have grassy fields and acres of surface parking lots right next to their skyscraper cores. These need to change fast.

[Madison Parkitect]

23 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

God all that flat nothingness makes me want to puke. Charlotte is a big East Coast city now, and big East Coast cities don't have grassy fields and acres of surface parking lots right next to their skyscraper cores. These need to change fast.

Most big east coast cities don't have a single "developer" who owns like a quarter of Uptown and doesn't develop it.

[KJHburg]

speaking of Southend high rises here are a few photos of various existing towers and those to be built.  Notice behind the Railyard on Winnifred there is soil testing or boring samples being done for the apartment tower planned there.   This will be across from the Highwoods tower site.  

as for the micro retail I have notice some turnover yes and I think they operate on short term leases but not sure.  It is experimental retail in a lot of regards and many may not find the sales to justify the rent even if it low compared to others.  

[Blue_Devil]

10 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

speaking of Southend high rises here are a few photos of various existing towers and those to be built.  Notice behind the Railyard on Winnifred there is soil testing or boring samples being done for the apartment tower planned there.   This will be across from the Highwoods tower site.  

as for the micro retail I have notice some turnover yes and I think they operate on short term leases but not sure.  It is experimental retail in a lot of regards and many may not find the sales to justify the rent even if it low compared to others.  

I suspect as more buildings get built and more foot traffic comes, those micro retail spots will have more permanent tenants

[KJHburg]

2 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

I suspect as more buildings get built and more foot traffic comes, those micro retail spots will have more permanent tenants

Yes and like most of retail foot traffic matters and with offices filling back up with people it is good thing.  Plus 100s of new apartments nearby will help too. 

[SydneyCarton]

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/development/article261388892.html

The ABC store at 1426 S Tryon will be redeveloped.

[atlrvr]

On 5/6/2022 at 2:22 PM, KJHburg said:

Various Southend high rises and Southend skyline shot.  and I noticed surveying work on the building and lot on Winnifred where at 15-17 story apartment tower is proposed by Delray Ventures.

actually the Delray tower is 15 stories 400 apartments 15K of retail 25K of office and a couple levels of parking.  It was long building.  

A "pre-submittal" land-use meeting was filed today on this.  Tough to gauge exact timing, as that meeting usually precedes breaking ground by 9+ months I'd say based on anecdotal observations.

[RANYC]

Not trying to be funny here, but I just realized something.  I don’t think  I’m all that invested in more high-rises in South End.  What I really want are more complete streets and extreme versions of walkability/pedestrian-prioritization all over South End, and I’ve resigned myself to the idea  that I’ll only get complete streets once South End is full of more high-rises everywhere and driving there becomes a complete cluster-#!

If Tryon and South, West, Clanton & Remount could undergo complete street overhauls like yesterday, well that would be far more impactful construction than any new high-rise announcement…just for me personally.

Had a similar feeling near Commonwealth development in plaza-midwood one evening this weekend.  Concluded that the only problem with the commonwealth development were the continued enablement of speeders and pedestrian intimidators still zooming down Central!

All this density needs a complete streets, traffic-calming, pedestrian-prioritizing context, or I continue to feel quite detached from any supposed value.

 

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Not trying to be funny here, but I just realized something.  I don’t think  I’m all that invested in more high-rises in South End.  What I really want are more complete streets and extreme versions of walkability/pedestrian-prioritization all over South End, and I’ve resigned myself to the idea  that I’ll only get complete streets once South End is full of more high-rises everywhere and driving there becomes a complete cluster-#!

If Tryon and South, West, Clanton & Remount could undergo complete street overhauls like yesterday, well that would be far more impactful construction than any new high-rise announcement…just for me personally.

Had a similar feeling near Commonwealth development in plaza-midwood one evening this weekend.  Concluded that the only problem with the commonwealth development were the continued enablement of speeders and pedestrian intimidators still zooming down Central!

All this density needs a complete streets, traffic-calming, pedestrian-prioritizing context, or I continue to feel quite detached from any supposed value.

 

The amount of critical mass created with commonwealth should naturally curb traffic, and should phase 3 of the gold line be completed (good luck) the transition from Clement should be awkward enough to almost halt traffic.