Intercity Public Rail In Florida

[codypet]

Factor in a 30-45min  stop for fuel or food and you're dang close.

[spenser1058]

The problem with Megabus (and, for that matter, Brightline, which has so far failed to make its numbers and provide the service it announced consistently) is that they are cherry-picking. That is, they are providing only the service which is profitable (so far, of course, Megabus has pulled that off - no one knows if Brightline will but they, like just about 95% of passenger rail since the beginning, have not except when the government subsidized them during wartime to move troops)

. That would be fine except it leaves vast swaths of the country unserved. It’s often the red states with Amtrak routes that scream the loudest when they try to cut routes that aren’t making it. The same with Greyhound when they do the same when government has tried to pull subsidies. Megabus, of course, makes no effort to service those routes. 

That’s not unique to transportation. btw. UPS, FedEx and the like do the same thing in mail and parcel delivery. leaving unprofitable service to USPS.

As to Brightline, it only got into this because of the profits it could make from the real estate. What happens once they’ve built all that out?

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, shardoon said:

So it is ok to throw billions at it just for those few people that would use it?

5 hours or more for Miami? Maybe during rush our, but nowhere near that, including bathroom and lunch stops on the turnpike.

Another option is the megabus, which is cheaper and faster then amtrak.  

Keeping things in perspective... the billions that are going to fund Amtrak are not just going to the Orlando to Miami leg. 

That's the cost for the entire nationwide system which a lot of people across the country, especially in the northeast, use and rely on daily. 

Just ask President Biden. 

It may not be perfect, but it's the only national, interstate commuter/passenger rail system we've got.

Allowing it to just disappear by defunding it, would be tantamount to giving up on the idea of interstate rail travel altogether.

Re: travel time by car via the turnpike, I've done that many times. I drive about 65 mph average. A couple of stops for gas and a cup of coffee to go, 

It's 235 miles to Miami city limit. At 65 mph non-stop, that = 3.6 hours. Add the aforementioned stops and call it 4 hours. Add the amount of in town driving time to reach your final dstination. Add more if you're going farther south.

So it becomes a question of how much another hour or two of your time is worth to you in terms of stress, hassle, fuel cost, wear and tear on your car, risk of being involved in a wreck, etc., etc.

I like the idea of being able to get on a train, sit down and read a book while the train does the rest. Go to the lounge car and have a snack.

Even if you could drive there in 3 hours flat, Amtrak would still be an alternative that is worth the cost afaic.

Your mileage may vary as they say.

 

[shardoon]

5 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Keeping things in perspective... the billions that are going to fund Amtrak are not just going to the Orlando to Miami leg. 

That's the cost for the entire nationwide system which a lot of people across the country, especially in the northeast, use and rely on daily. 

Just ask President Biden. 

It may not be perfect, but it's the only national, interstate commuter/passenger rail system we've got.

Allowing it to just disappear by defunding it, would be tantamount to giving up on the idea of interstate rail travel altogether.

Re: travel time by car via the turnpike, I've done that many times. I drive about 65 mph average. A couple of stops for gas and a cup of coffee to go, 

It's 235 miles to Miami city limit. At 65 mph non-stop, that = 3.6 hours. Add the aforementioned stops and call it 4 hours. Add the amount of in town driving time to reach your final dstination. Add more if you're going farther south.

So it becomes a question of how much another hour or two of your time is worth to you in terms of stress, hassle, fuel cost, wear and tear on your car, risk of being involved in a wreck, etc., etc.

I like the idea of being able to get on a train, sit down and read a book while the train does the rest. Go to the lounge car and have a snack.

Even if you could drive there in 3 hours flat, Amtrak would still be an alternative that is worth the cost afaic.

Your mileage may vary as they say.

 

I'll quote you, but also responding to Cody above as well. You are cherry picking numbers. You are adding food, fuel etc. First, it is not hard to not eat for a 3 hours. Likewise some cars can even do a round trip to Miami on one tank. I've done plenty of commutes, while avoiding rush hour well under 4 hours with just a quick bathroom stop. 

Now, when comparing to amtrak. Do we suddenly press a button and transport from your house on an amtrak train about to leave the station? Ofcourse not. Factor in travel to the station, waiting for the train loading on etc. On a good day, that's 1.5 hours. Factor in the travel from the Miami station to your end point, can be another hour. So total amtrak commitment is realistically 8.5 hours...... if you are gonna compare apples to apples. 

[jgardnerucf]

Silver Airways in a 18-seat SAAB puddle jumper is much faster than any of the aforementioned choices.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

I'll quote you, but also responding to Cody above as well. You are cherry picking numbers. You are adding food, fuel etc. First, it is not hard to not eat for a 3 hours. Likewise some cars can even do a round trip to Miami on one tank. I've done plenty of commutes, while avoiding rush hour well under 4 hours with just a quick bathroom stop. 

Now, when comparing to amtrak. Do we suddenly press a button and transport from your house on an amtrak train about to leave the station? Ofcourse not. Factor in travel to the station, waiting for the train loading on etc. On a good day, that's 1.5 hours. Factor in the travel from the Miami station to your end point, can be another hour. So total amtrak commitment is realistically 8.5 hours...... if you are gonna compare apples to apples. 

OK, I said nothing about food. I said that I stopped for gas and to grab a cup of coffee to go. But still, no matter

I happen to live near downtown, so I can be at the Amtrak Station in 15 minutes and get there on time with only a short wait for the train to arrive.

I'd put it closer to 45 minutes from the time I left my house to the time I boarded the train. But that's me. I understand some people live farther away so it would take them longer.

Again, all irrelevant.

As I said previously, if you're in a big hurry, then Amtrak would not be your first choice. 

My point was that it is a great option for leisurely, unhurried travelers who aren't trying to get there in the shortest time possible. 

So it takes a couple more hours to go to Miami via Amtrak than by car.

No big deal. 

A lot of people just enjoy the trip and don't care about another couple of hours.   

The idea of being able o sit back and relax has great appeal.

I know I'd rather take the train than drive any day. 

To each his own though.

[aent]

11 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The problem with Megabus (and, for that matter, Brightline, which has so far failed to make its numbers and provide the service it announced consistently) is that they are cherry-picking. That is, they are providing only the service which is profitable (so far, of course, Megabus has pulled that off - no one knows if Brightline will but they, like just about 95% of passenger rail since the beginning, have not except when the government subsidized them during wartime to move troops)

. That would be fine except it leaves vast swaths of the country unserved. It’s often the red states with Amtrak routes that scream the loudest when they try to cut routes that aren’t making it. The same with Greyhound when they do the same when government has tried to pull subsidies. Megabus, of course, makes no effort to service those routes. 

That’s not unique to transportation. btw. UPS, FedEx and the like do the same thing in mail and parcel delivery. leaving unprofitable service to USPS.

As to Brightline, it only got into this because of the profits it could make from the real estate. What happens once they’ve built all that out?

 

 

 

You make it sound like Amtrak has some sort of universal coverage, but they're far from it. Megabus serves lots of cities in Florida that Amtrak doesn't. Amtrak is cherry picking just as much as Megabus and Sunrail... and in fact, way more... they offer many less departure times then either of the other 2.

And again, it shows when you look at the numbers. You keep insulting the other services like Brightline for not hitting their projections, but Brightline beat the number of passengers Amtrak posts in the entire state when they only have 3 stops and only part of their line built. Why do you believe it's beneficial to move less people while spending way more tax dollars? Brightline moves more people around the state with no tax dollars.

Amtrak just seems to be in a weird place in the state once the Brightline expansion is completed. They're gonna be the slowest option, not the cheapest option, and not even close to the most luxurious option. If you don't want to drive, and you want to be cheap, you go Megabus. If you want to have a luxurious ride or be faster, you take Brightline. Both are faster and have more convenient operating hours then Amtrak. Who is left to take Amtrak? Seemingly nobody. And thats why Brightline and Megabus are the transportation options of choice for intercity travel in the state.

You keep mentioning Brightline makes money off of real estate, but they own none outside of South Florida. There's no real estate money to be made in Orlando for Brightline, they're leasing everything, just the government is making money. Why would they extend the line out of South Florida if they were only in it for the real estate? There is literally no reason, they're in it to make money on mass transit, while paying taxes instead of taking them.

Also, just so you're aware, USPS long ago discontinued universal service. They typically won't deliver directly to almost any new homes for many years now, and require group lockers in dense new areas, and often give rural area residents a PO Box instead of delivering anything at all to your home. There is now a ton of people in rural areas where FedEx and UPS deliver to the home, but USPS makes them travel miles to the nearest post office to get their packages and mail. Even in dense communities, they don't allow traditional mailboxes, they require them to be grouped. This means the USPS has long had a logistical advantage in most areas, as they don't need to get all the way to do the door or even make one stop per house. They've never lost money due to having worse routes from USPS. Infact, they currently claim the fall of first class mail volume, combined with the requirements to fund retirement so long in advance is the reason they're losing money, not any sort of universal service or they're taking unprofitable routes. FedEx and UPS feel they need to take the unprofitable routes as well, because if I try to send a package with FedEx, and they say no more than a couple times, I'm just gonna start going to another company, I'm not gonna deal with them cherry picking what they want to deliver. All 3 companies contract with each other for last mile delivery in super-rural areas to make sure they aren't rejecting packages.

[codypet]

12 hours ago, shardoon said:

I'll quote you, but also responding to Cody above as well. You are cherry picking numbers. You are adding food, fuel etc. First, it is not hard to not eat for a 3 hours. Likewise some cars can even do a round trip to Miami on one tank. I've done plenty of commutes, while avoiding rush hour well under 4 hours with just a quick bathroom stop. 

While I've done the Raleigh to Orlando trip with one stop for fuel and the restroom, that's not realistic.  Travelling with my ex wife, that trip to Miami from Orlando would have to take three stops for bathroom breaks.  I imagine once toddler codypet is officially out of diapers she'll require just as many stops.

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, aent said:

You make it sound like Amtrak has some sort of universal coverage, but they're far from it. Megabus serves lots of cities in Florida that Amtrak doesn't. Amtrak is cherry picking just as much as Megabus and Sunrail... and in fact, way more... they offer many less departure times then either of the other 2.

And again, it shows when you look at the numbers. You keep insulting the other services like Brightline for not hitting their projections, but Brightline beat the number of passengers Amtrak posts in the entire state when they only have 3 stops and only part of their line built. Why do you believe it's beneficial to move less people while spending way more tax dollars? Brightline moves more people around the state with no tax dollars.

Amtrak just seems to be in a weird place in the state once the Brightline expansion is completed. They're gonna be the slowest option, not the cheapest option, and not even close to the most luxurious option. If you don't want to drive, and you want to be cheap, you go Megabus. If you want to have a luxurious ride or be faster, you take Brightline. Both are faster and have more convenient operating hours then Amtrak. Who is left to take Amtrak? Seemingly nobody. And thats why Brightline and Megabus are the transportation options of choice for intercity travel in the state.

You keep mentioning Brightline makes money off of real estate, but they own none outside of South Florida. There's no real estate money to be made in Orlando for Brightline, they're leasing everything, just the government is making money. Why would they extend the line out of South Florida if they were only in it for the real estate? There is literally no reason, they're in it to make money on mass transit, while paying taxes instead of taking them.

Also, just so you're aware, USPS long ago discontinued universal service. They typically won't deliver directly to almost any new homes for many years now, and require group lockers in dense new areas, and often give rural area residents a PO Box instead of delivering anything at all to your home. There is now a ton of people in rural areas where FedEx and UPS deliver to the home, but USPS makes them travel miles to the nearest post office to get their packages and mail. Even in dense communities, they don't allow traditional mailboxes, they require them to be grouped. This means the USPS has long had a logistical advantage in most areas, as they don't need to get all the way to do the door or even make one stop per house. They've never lost money due to having worse routes from USPS. Infact, they currently claim the fall of first class mail volume, combined with the requirements to fund retirement so long in advance is the reason they're losing money, not any sort of universal service or they're taking unprofitable routes. FedEx and UPS feel they need to take the unprofitable routes as well, because if I try to send a package with FedEx, and they say no more than a couple times, I'm just gonna start going to another company, I'm not gonna deal with them cherry picking what they want to deliver. All 3 companies contract with each other for last mile delivery in super-rural areas to make sure they aren't rejecting packages.

Keep in mind.... Amtrak is an INTERSTATE system that operates NATIONWIDE.

Does Brightline or Megabus do that? 

Fine.... there are slightly cheaper, slightly faster ways to get between Orlando and Miami than Amtrak.

But try to take either of those two from Orlando to Washington DC.

Or Philadelphia.

Or NYC. 

Or Chicago.

Etc. Etc. 

Do away with Amtrak and you do away with the best option for those who do not want to fly or drive to another state. 

[Poe Tempkin]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:01 AM, shardoon said:

Amtrak is a joke and there is no reason to celebrate it getting money from the tax payer. Obviously I hope the next bill goes nowhere with all its wasteful spending and Amtrak is a perfect example. 6 hours from Miami to Orlando.....wow, and all we need it to throw them billions of dollars to restart that line....... what a deal......

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The Orlando to Miami lines are active already, and go all the way from NYC to Miami.  One of them jogs west to serve Tampa.

[JFW657]

Thought this was kind of interesting. 

The only state in the US that has no Amrak service whatsoever is SD.

 

[codypet]

What is considered new service?  Does that mean Wyoming currently doesn't have service either and noone is stopping in Iowa or Kentucky?

[gibby]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

What is considered new service?  Does that mean Wyoming currently doesn't have service either and noone is stopping in Iowa or Kentucky?

or tennessee.

[JFW657]

Here is a page with all the routes Amtrak runs from coast to coast.

https://www.amtrak.com/train-routes

There are smaller stations and towns they stop at that aren't listed on the main page, but if you click on a route, you'll see a map for that route that shows all the stops.

Didn't see any service to Wyoming, Iowa, Kentucky or Tennessee.

Maybe those "new services" involve other transportation to stations in neighboring states. 

[spenser1058]

32 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Here is a page with all the routes Amtrak runs from coast to coast.

https://www.amtrak.com/train-routes

There are smaller stations and towns they stop at that aren't listed on the main page, but if you click on a route, you'll see a map for that route that shows all the stops.

Didn't see any service to Wyoming, Iowa, Kentucky or Tennessee.

Maybe those "new services" involve other transportation to stations in neighboring states. 

I read recently that one of the stops Amtrak hoped to offer with additional funding was Nashville. 

Union Station, I believe, has long since been converted to other uses so they would apparently also need a new terminal.

In 1977, several Florida JA programs chartered an Amtrak train to take us to the National Junior Achievers’ Conference at IU in Bloomington (Go Hoosiers!). We made a stop in Nashville but the station was closed.

When I moved to Nashville in 1980, Amtrak had no service. To my knowledge, that hasn’t changed since then. Given Nashville’s a college town (over a dozen schools in the area) and its growing tourism industry, I think it would be high on their list.
 

Edited November 11, 2021 by spenser1058

[WAJAS]

On 11/10/2021 at 7:21 PM, JFW657 said:

Here is a page with all the routes Amtrak runs from coast to coast.

https://www.amtrak.com/train-routes

There are smaller stations and towns they stop at that aren't listed on the main page, but if you click on a route, you'll see a map for that route that shows all the stops.

Didn't see any service to Wyoming, Iowa, Kentucky or Tennessee.

Maybe those "new services" involve other transportation to stations in neighboring states. 

New services refer to the routes that would be funded by the Infrastructure Bill (80%) and states served by the new route(20%). Enhanced service refers to increases in frequency, stops, etc. that would enhance already present service along those routes, which would be funded through the same split mentioned previously.