Intercity Public Rail In Florida

[spenser1058]

When the (currently) $2 trillion Biden infrastructure bill is passed, it includes funding for Amtrak’s 2035 “Vision” plan which features expanded rail service and improvements across the US.

Most interesting to us are plans to connect Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. Did we mention, unlike Brightline, Amtrak serves (DeLightful!) DeLand, Sanford, Downtown Winter Park, Downtown Orlando and Downtown Kissimmee?

Also being proposed is returning rail service to the historic terminal in downtown Jax, which once was the busiest south of DC.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-amtrak-should-be-on-jacksonvilles-radar

From The Jaxson 

Best of all, Amtrak is designed and priced for everyday folks, not well-heeled tourists.
 

Edited November 3, 2021 by spenser1058

[aent]

57 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

When the (currently) $2 trillion Biden infrastructure bill is passed, it includes funding for Amtrak’s 2035 “Vision” plan which features expanded rail service and improvements across the US.

Most interesting to us are plans to connect Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. Did we mention, unlike Brightline, Amtrak serves (DeLightful!) DeLand, Sanford, Downtown Winter Park, Downtown Orlando and Downtown Kissimmee?

Also being proposed is returning rail service to the historic terminal in downtown Jax, which once was the busiest south of DC.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-amtrak-should-be-on-jacksonvilles-radar

From The Jaxson 

Best of all, Amtrak is designed and priced for everyday folks, not well-heeled tourists.
 

Hopefully they'll keep stalling the bill, that thing is awful.

The article states the new service, at tax payer expense of $12 billion, will add 2 daily round trips between Tampa, through Orlando, to Jacksonville, on slow moving trains so the trip takes 4.5 hours. I think we all know almost nobody takes the current Amtrak trains in Florida, and this is just more of the same, at taxpayer expense.

I just looked up tickets on Amtrak from Miami to Orlando. For a $50 ticket, it takes almost 6 hours, Brightline is expected to do the same trip in half the time, on a nicer train.

[JFW657]

18 hours ago, aent said:

Hopefully they'll keep stalling the bill, that thing is awful.

The article states the new service, at tax payer expense of $12 billion, will add 2 daily round trips between Tampa, through Orlando, to Jacksonville, on slow moving trains so the trip takes 4.5 hours. I think we all know almost nobody takes the current Amtrak trains in Florida, and this is just more of the same, at taxpayer expense.

I just looked up tickets on Amtrak from Miami to Orlando. For a $50 ticket, it takes almost 6 hours, Brightline is expected to do the same trip in half the time, on a nicer train.

But for how many x the price? 2? 3?  

[spenser1058]

Btw, if you’re driving north for the holidays, it’s easy to see the old Union Station from I-95.  It’s just past the junction with I-10 - look off to the right toward downtown. It’s much larger than Orlando’s.

It was misguided to move the passenger terminal to a small station northwest of downtown in the 1970’s (it’s about the size of Winter Park’s Amtrak station).

Unless you happen to live in that part of town, the current station is not in the least convenient. Meanwhile, since the ‘80’s , the original terminal has been renovated and used as the Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center. 

That’s had its own challenges and makes it pretty clear returning the terminal to its original use makes sense.
 

Edited November 4, 2021 by spenser1058

[codypet]

25 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

But for how many x the price? 2? 3?  

It also helps when you have priority over the tracks.  Amtrak from Kalamazoo to Chicago owned a good section of track and could pull of the speeds Brightline does because of geometry and priority.  

[uncreativeusername]

22 hours ago, aent said:

The article states the new service, at tax payer expense of $12 billion, will add 2 daily round trips between Tampa, through Orlando, to Jacksonville, on slow moving trains so the trip takes 4.5 hours. I think we all know almost nobody takes the current Amtrak trains in Florida, and this is just more of the same, at taxpayer expense.

This phrasing^ makes it sound like the two daily round trips will cost $12 billion - but that is the total for all of Amtrak's intercity expansion nationally.  

I have nothing to offer on a discussion regarding potential usage within Florida, but we should be clear about the actual numbers...

[spenser1058]

As to use of Amtrak in Florida, some info from 2019 (the latest year I found info for):

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/statefactsheets/FLORIDA19.pdf

From Amtrak
 

[spenser1058]

Both Brightline and Amtrak had to discontinue service in 2020 due to COVID-19. However, while Amtrak came back online just a few months later, Brightline still hasn’t (and cut 250 jobs in the process).

It’s a good thing there’s an alternative to get around Florida without Brightline. One wonders about their commitment to service given their performance so far (which, even during the brief time they operated never met projections).

“Brightline suspended operations on March 25, 2020, due to the COVID-19 pandemic.^[39] All train services were completely closed, and the company cut 250 jobs.^[40] 

In January 2021, the company stated that service would begin again in "late 2021," contrary to their earlier estimate of the third quarter of 2021.”

From Wikipedia

[spenser1058]

Did you know? Amtrak also helps FDOT with SunRail:

“Amtrak and Florida DOT entered into an agreement for periodic and heavy maintenance and for heavy repair of SunRail equipment at the Sanford maintenance facility. This allows Amtrak to fill some excess capacity at the facility, which also services Auto Train equipment. SunRail began commuter service through Orlando on May 1, 2014.”

From Amtrak

[spenser1058]

Even Publix likes Amtrak!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS3-7u67d1U

[spenser1058]

Did you know Secretary Mayor Pete gets to be on Amtrak’s Board of Directors?

Woohoo!

[codypet]

19 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Both Brightline and Amtrak had to discontinue service in 2020 due to COVID-19. However, while Amtrak came back online just a few months later, Brightline still hasn’t (and cut 250 jobs in the process).

It’s a good thing there’s an alternative to get around Florida without Brightline. One wonders about their commitment to service given their performance so far (which, even during the brief time they operated never met projections).

“Brightline suspended operations on March 25, 2020, due to the COVID-19 pandemic.^[39] All train services were completely closed, and the company cut 250 jobs.^[40] 

In January 2021, the company stated that service would begin again in "late 2021," contrary to their earlier estimate of the third quarter of 2021.”

From Wikipedia

Service resumes Monday Spense.

They took the opportunity of the pandemic to upgrade the existing service to PTC so TriRail could start their service on the tracks.   The testing and certification is what caused all the delays, but it was the right move for them. 

[Uncommon]

7 minutes ago, codypet said:

Service resumes Monday Spense.

They took the opportunity of the pandemic to upgrade the existing service to PTC so TriRail could start their service on the tracks.   The testing and certification is what caused all the delays, but it was the right move for them. 

Thank you for a logical, sensible post devoid of emotion, cynicism, and inherent negativity.

[spenser1058]

44 minutes ago, codypet said:

Service resumes Monday Spense.

They took the opportunity of the pandemic to upgrade the existing service to PTC so TriRail could start their service on the tracks.   The testing and certification is what caused all the delays, but it was the right move for them. 

That’s fine, but what if you were counting on Brightline service during that time? Rather a long time without availability.

[JFW657]

6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

That’s fine, but what if you were counting on Brightline service during that time? Rather a long time without availability.

 

 

[gibby]

They should split the Tampa-Orlando trains and the Orlando-Tampa trains in Auburndale with half of each train going to Miami and the other halves going to Orlando or Tampa.  Northbound trains from Miami should also split and Auburndale with half going to Tampa and half going to Orlando.  This would almost double service without increasing track usage much at all.

[aent]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:51 PM, spenser1058 said:

As to use of Amtrak in Florida, some info from 2019 (the latest year I found info for):

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/statefactsheets/FLORIDA19.pdf

From Amtrak
 

Thanks, that furthers my point: Brightline, servicing all 3 stops in 2019, serviced more people then all of Amtrak in the entire state, and that was with them not meeting projections as a result of a lawsuit delaying the opening of all of the stations.

Obviously COVID messed things up a bit and Brightline decided to suspend operations instead of running trains for almost nobody on board, which has a terrible environmental impact on top of it making no financial sense.

I guess we'll see what happens next year,  with Brightline adding another 3 stations and Amtrak adding a couple of trains. Here's my prediction: Brightline dominates Amtrak's numbers and usefulness even more then before.

[blt23]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:30 PM, uncreativeusername said:

This phrasing^ makes it sound like the two daily round trips will cost $12 billion - but that is the total for all of Amtrak's intercity expansion nationally.  

I have nothing to offer on a discussion regarding potential usage within Florida, but we should be clear about the actual numbers...

To be more specific, the bill includes $66 billion for intercity passenger rail, which breaks down as follows (all spread evenly over 5 years):

• $22 billion in direct grants to Amtrak for rolling stock upgrades, station accessibility improvements, and other capital improvements to Amtrak owned infrastructure
• $36 billion (max of 24 to the northeast corridor) for "Federal-State Partnership for Intercity Passenger Rail" grants, which are competitive grants for intercity passenger rail projects that require a minimum 20% non-federal funding share
• $5 billion for the competitive "Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements (CRISI)" grant program, which awards funds for almost any type of railroad infrastructure project, but  generally for single, small projects and again non-federal funding contributions are required
• $3 billion for a new grade crossing elimination grant program 

The quick takeaway from this is that new Amtrak services aren't going to happen unless FDOT puts up money to make them happen (both for capital improvements and ongoing service subsidy). I really doubt FDOT wants to compete with Brightline, so more trains are unlikely.

Also, Amtrak has no real expansion plan. Their so-called plan is really just a marketing pitch to advertise (to states and municipalities) that federal rail funding is becoming available and Amtrak is willing to work with anyone who has an idea and some local funding to go with it. As an example of their plan not being serious, "Amtrak told CNN Business that to calculate trip times for most of its proposed new routes it researched passenger train times in the mid-1950s to early 1960s and chose the best trip time." https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/tech/amtrak-speed-trains/index.html

[codypet]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:52 AM, spenser1058 said:

That’s fine, but what if you were counting on Brightline service during that time? Rather a long time without availability.

True, but they were gonna have an extensive downtime one way or another, and none of us knew how long the pandemic related shutdowns were gonna take.  Seems like they had all the equipment either already procured or close to it (because it was gonna be required for Miami-Orlando anyway).  Might as well take advantage of the no ridership during the lockdown and the likely slow ridership following the pandemic (you know because public transport doesn't sound fun during a pandemic) and just shut it all down and do it with it not running. 

[angela1117]

On 11/4/2021 at 2:43 PM, spenser1058 said:

Even Publix likes Amtrak!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS3-7u67d1U

This one will always be a favorite! 

[Poe Tempkin]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:06 AM, codypet said:

They took the opportunity of the pandemic to upgrade the existing service to PTC so TriRail could start their service on the tracks.

As in Tri Rail Coastal Link or to allow Tri Rail to pull into the MIC?

[shardoon]

Amtrak is a joke and there is no reason to celebrate it getting money from the tax payer. Obviously I hope the next bill goes nowhere with all its wasteful spending and Amtrak is a perfect example. 6 hours from Miami to Orlando.....wow, and all we need it to throw them billions of dollars to restart that line....... what a deal......

[codypet]

10 hours ago, Poe Tempkin said:

As in Tri Rail Coastal Link or to allow Tri Rail to pull into the MIC?

I don't think they have an agreement for Coastal link.  This its just for Miami Central.

[JFW657]

8 hours ago, shardoon said:

Amtrak is a joke and there is no reason to celebrate it getting money from the tax payer. Obviously I hope the next bill goes nowhere with all its wasteful spending and Amtrak is a perfect example. 6 hours from Miami to Orlando.....wow, and all we need it to throw them billions of dollars to restart that line....... what a deal......

Well, driving there takes 5 hours or more, unless you haul ass about 70 mph all the way without stopping.

Then you could probably get to the city limit in about 4 hours or so.

Other than than that, you have to fly, which means getting a ride to the airport or driving yourself and paying to park, checking in your luggage, etc. etc.

When you consder that it makes stops along the way, 6 hours to go 250 miles by train is not all that bad. 

Besides, people who are in a big hurry to get there aren't going to take the train to begin with.

Certainly the new high speed rail will give those in a hurry a better option over flying, but it won't be as cheap as Amtrak I'll bet.

Amtrak will remain a decent, budget-friendly option for travellers with plenty of time. 

And let's not forget also, some people just like to travel by train and enjoy the ride.  

[shardoon]

59 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Well, driving there takes 5 hours or more, unless you haul ass about 70 mph all the way without stopping.

Then you could probably get to the city limit in about 4 hours or so.

Other than than that, you have to fly, which means getting a ride to the airport or driving yourself and paying to park, checking in your luggage, etc. etc.

When you consder that it makes stops along the way, 6 hours to go 250 miles by train is not all that bad. 

Besides, people who are in a big hurry to get there aren't going to take the train to begin with.

Certainly the new high speed rail will give those in a hurry a better option over flying, but it won't be as cheap as Amtrak I'll bet.

Amtrak will remain a decent, budget-friendly option for travellers with plenty of time. 

And let's not forget also, some people just like to travel by train and enjoy the ride.  

So it is ok to throw billions at it just for those few people that would use it?

5 hours or more for Miami? Maybe during rush our, but nowhere near that, including bathroom and lunch stops on the turnpike.

Another option is the megabus, which is cheaper and faster then amtrak.