Military Circle Redevelopment

[BFG]

11 minutes ago, urbanlife said:

You are confusing the King Dome with the Key Arena. The Key Arena is more like the Scope. Seattle just did a massive renovation to it for it to be the home of their new NHL team and will be the future home of their new NBA team when that happens.

Key Arena also had a similar design that allowed them to dig underground to create more seats. Norfolk originally wanted to do that with the Scope, but the price tag came to about 200M and the city said no.

Honestly, that might've been a bargain but I get why they moved on, esp. for the few seats being added.

[baobabs727]

15 minutes ago, BFG said:

Key Arena also had a similar design that allowed them to dig underground to create more seats. Norfolk originally wanted to do that with the Scope, but the price tag came to about 200M and the city said no.

Honestly, that might've been a bargain but I get why they moved on, esp. for the few seats being added.

A real bargain, indeed!  Key Arena's transformation cost nearly $1.2B !!!  (SEE LINK, BELOW)

ttps://www.seattletimes.com/sports/kraken/after-1-15-billion-renovation-seattles-climate-pledge-arena-will-surprise-people-in-the-greatest-way/

 

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/facilities/stadium-arena/news/15152317/scope-arena-looking-at-4000-seat-expansion

EDIT: $1.2 BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!  HOWEVER, ORIGINALLY PROJECTED TO BE ONLY $600M!(SEE LINK, ABOVE)

Edited July 21, 2022 by baobabs727

[BFG]

18 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

A real bargain, indeed!  Key Arena's transformation cost nearly $1.2B !!!  (SEE LINK, BELOW)

ttps://www.seattletimes.com/sports/kraken/after-1-15-billion-renovation-seattles-climate-pledge-arena-will-surprise-people-in-the-greatest-way/

 

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/facilities/stadium-arena/news/15152317/scope-arena-looking-at-4000-seat-expansion

EDIT: $1.2 BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!  HOWEVER, ORIGINALLY PROJECTED TO BE ONLY $600M!(SEE LINK, ABOVE)

Yeah...by the time Scope's remodeling would've been finished I imagine Norfolk could've built a new arena from the ground up for the same price. Of course those were pre-pandemic estimates, before building costs skyrocketed so who knows?

[urbanlife]

3 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

A real bargain, indeed!  Key Arena's transformation cost nearly $1.2B !!!  (SEE LINK, BELOW)

ttps://www.seattletimes.com/sports/kraken/after-1-15-billion-renovation-seattles-climate-pledge-arena-will-surprise-people-in-the-greatest-way/

 

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/facilities/stadium-arena/news/15152317/scope-arena-looking-at-4000-seat-expansion

EDIT: $1.2 BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!  HOWEVER, ORIGINALLY PROJECTED TO BE ONLY $600M!(SEE LINK, ABOVE)

That is because they built a new state of the art arena under an existing roof. That would be the same for the Scope if a new state of the art arena was built under the existing dome. Granted the Key Arena spent that much for a pro team and will eventually have two pro teams playing there. That is a big difference. 

[baobabs727]

1 hour ago, urbanlife said:

That is because they built a new state of the art arena under an existing roof. That would be the same for the Scope if a new state of the art arena was built under the existing dome. Granted the Key Arena spent that much for a pro team and will eventually have two pro teams playing there. That is a big difference. 

Right, and I think this also shows that even the bare minimum 4 1/2 ft. dig would’ve cost probably double the original $200M estimate, maybe more. 

[virginia pe]

Here is the real reason Scope cannot be renovated - the buttresses:

For a few years, Norfolk officials have discussed the possibility of renovating and expanding the capacity of the arena, which can hold up to 13,600 people and was built in 1971. In 2017, Norfolk asked the Oak View Group to explore the idea of adding around 5,000 seats.

"We looked at it hard," Rhamstine said.

The study unearthed a major construction roadblock – because of the way the Scope roof was built, it would be prohibitively difficult to to maneuver construction equipment between the top and the surrounding buttresses. The cost estimate for renovations ended up being at least $200 million or more, Rhamstine said.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_04cef438-3a03-11e9-8f04-f383430ceea9.html

[urbanlife]

8 hours ago, virginia pe said:

Here is the real reason Scope cannot be renovated - the buttresses:

For a few years, Norfolk officials have discussed the possibility of renovating and expanding the capacity of the arena, which can hold up to 13,600 people and was built in 1971. In 2017, Norfolk asked the Oak View Group to explore the idea of adding around 5,000 seats.

"We looked at it hard," Rhamstine said.

The study unearthed a major construction roadblock – because of the way the Scope roof was built, it would be prohibitively difficult to to maneuver construction equipment between the top and the surrounding buttresses. The cost estimate for renovations ended up being at least $200 million or more, Rhamstine said.

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_04cef438-3a03-11e9-8f04-f383430ceea9.html

That is about on par with the cost for any arena renovation. Baltimore is doing a renovation right now to their arena for about that same amount. Sacramento built a 19000 seat arena in 2014 that cost $558 million. So you got to think about it in that sense, even an expensive renovation to the Scope would be cheaper than tearing it down and building a brand new building.  Now, if Norfolk gave up on the idea of having an arena downtown to make it more appealing to others in the metro by having it at Military Circle, then it makes no sense to having a second arena downtown. At that point it would be better off to build a new opera house and redevelop the whole site. Even better if that redevelopment is tied to MacArthur Mall and it involved putting in a street grid and selling off property to developers that are ready to develop residential mixed used towers now.

[BFG]

Mayor Alexander, Chip Filer, and council members visited the UT arena in Austin earlier this year. I don’t like that the Pilot is trying to imply something shady. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-council-austin-arena-trip-20220727-zuzmcec3pjbk5lqw2fmdt6g23i-story.html

[EJ_LEWIS]

12 hours ago, BFG said:

Mayor Alexander, Chip Filer, and council members visited the UT arena in Austin earlier this year. I don’t like that the Pilot is trying to imply something shady. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-council-austin-arena-trip-20220727-zuzmcec3pjbk5lqw2fmdt6g23i-story.html

Why not travel together so that the meeting would be open to the public?  Only heightens people's suspicion that something under the table is happening here.  

[baobabs727]

16 hours ago, BFG said:

Mayor Alexander, Chip Filer, and council members visited the UT arena in Austin earlier this year. I don’t like that the Pilot is trying to imply something shady. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-council-austin-arena-trip-20220727-zuzmcec3pjbk5lqw2fmdt6g23i-story.html

It’s a matter of transparency in governance. And also there is the travel expense. Notice that the Mayor was quick to tell us that he paid for his own travel. The Pilot reporter also noted that Ms. Royster did not choose to stay at the same pricey hotel which the others chose.  

If you approve of a multi-millionaire, many times over, like Andrea McClellan… or any government official, for that matter,… flying back and forth and staying at the Fairmont Hotel at $600/$800 or $1000/night—potentially, all  on the public’s dime—well then you and I simply have a totally different understanding of ethical standards for elected officials and their fiscal prudence with and responsible stewardship of taxpayer dollars. I’ll give Ms. McClellan the benefit of the doubt for now, however.  Hoping she makes a comment.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by baobabs727

[BFG]

That’s fair. The fancy hotel did stand out to me. 

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, BFG said:

That’s fair. The fancy hotel did stand out to me. 

But other than all of that, lol, it sounds like it was a super fun time. Like 5 kids in a candy store. Or 4  in the store with 1 waiting his turn in the car. Haha. I get it.  We all want Norfolk to prosper, and a development such as this one is exciting to contemplate and potentially a game changer.  Of course the devil is always in the details, but if those Los Angeles boys at Oak View can foot the bill for an arena with perhaps some contribution from the City of Norfolk for infrastructure improvements, I’m all for it.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by baobabs727

[BeagleAccountant]

2 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

It’s a matter of transparency in governance. And also there is the travel expense. Notice that the Mayor was quick to tell us that he paid for his own travel. The Pilot reporter also noted that Ms. Royster did not choose to stay at the same pricey hotel which the others chose.  

If you approve of a multi-millionaire, many times over, like Andrea McClellan… or any government official, for that matter,… flying back and forth and staying at the Fairmont Hotel at $600/$800 or $1000/night—potentially, all  on the public’s dime—well then you and I simply have a totally different understanding of ethical standards for elected officials and their fiscal prudence with and responsible stewardship of taxpayer dollars. I’ll give Ms. McClellan the benefit of the doubt for now, however.  Hoping she makes a comment.  

Transparency only occurred thanks to city receipt records. So I'm happy not all of them followed the Mayor's lead, otherwise we wouldn't even know this trip occurred.

[baobabs727]

https://sports.yahoo.com/editorial-norfolk-officials-actions-put-221500044.html
 

The Virginian Pilot is goin’ full guns-a-blazin’ on this Norfolk City Council secret negotiations trip.  

Edited July 29, 2022 by baobabs727

[BeagleAccountant]

"Military Circle Mall is closing and is set to be demolished in early 2023 for future redevelopment of the site. The Norfolk Economic Development Authority voted on the decision Wednesday."
https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/military-circle-mall-closing-at-end-of-2022-set-to-be-demolished-ahead-of-redevelopment/

[zeppelin14]

Funny how I saw this on the WAVY10 post on Facebook and immediately came here..... About time though and a great step forward. At this point, I really don't care which of the three proposals they pick because that mall has to go.

[BFG]

Not wasting time, I see. The sooner the better IMO. 

[EJ_LEWIS]

I wish the city would just go ahead and award the redevelopment to Pharrell's group!

[BFG]

Apparently there's an update coming at tomorrow night's meeting.

https://www.norfolk.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Agenda/_08232022-1174

[varider]

So I just saw a clip of City Manager Filer telling WAVY that he expects regional tax dollars for the arena from Chesapeake and VB, then WAVY asked the other city managers/mayors if and why they'd support an arena at Military Circle and all they had to say was that there has been little to no discussion about an arena. Pretty embarrassing really, it made Chip look sorta clueless and dishonest.  WAVY said it would take a vote from each city council to support the arena. Chip said in about 4-6 weeks we will have a "clearer picture of where we are with this."  My faith that VB and Chesapeake join in on an arena at Military Circle is little to none. Just like the surf park, the casino, light rail, and pretty much everything else I've ever gotten my hopes up for in this region, I just don't see us pulling it off. 

[BFG]

A few years ago, I read something that implied the cities were willing to work together to make this happen. It was long before Pharrell or Emmitt made a proposal and this was just an idea being floated. I have a feeling it’s gonna take at least a decade for this to happen because they seemingly keep kicking the can down the road. 

[mintscraft56]

VB working with Norfolk? Since when? Since when were they ok with us, the "ghetto" (according to some VB people)  getting a arena? Chesapeake is alot more friendly towards us and I think I can see us working with them, but VB? No, no chance for ol' VB to give us anything.....other than more disappointment.  

PS: Its not an attack on VB, I mean if we turn the page back in history, its historically what has happened every time we get something. 

On the other hand, I think with Chesapeake we can pull it off and maybe get a little regionalism booted up again. Chesapeake has always been easier to work with.    

[BeagleAccountant]

12 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

VB working with Norfolk? Since when? Since when were they ok with us, the "ghetto" (according to some VB people)  getting a arena? Chesapeake is alot more friendly towards us and I think I can see us working with them, but VB? No, no chance for ol' VB to give us anything.....other than more disappointment.  

PS: Its not an attack on VB, I mean if we turn the page back in history, its historically what has happened every time we get something. 

On the other hand, I think with Chesapeake we can pull it off and maybe get a little regionalism booted up again. Chesapeake has always been easier to work with.    

VB, Chesapeake and Norfolk came together in 2020 to create the Hampton Roads Regional Arena Authority. Military Circle was listed as one of the possible sites.
https://www.wavy.com/news/top-stories/va-house-passes-hampton-roads-regional-arena-bill/

[varider]

1 minute ago, BeagleAccountant said:

VB, Chesapeake and Norfolk came together in 2020 to create the Hampton Roads Regional Arena Authority. Military Circle was listed as one of the possible sites.
https://www.wavy.com/news/top-stories/va-house-passes-hampton-roads-regional-arena-bill/

That's what makes it more odd that VB and Chesapeake say that here's been little to no discussion about an arena. It shows no level of commitment or partnership when the other cities aren't even in the discussion at the table

[BeagleAccountant]

7 minutes ago, varider said:

That's what makes it more odd that VB and Chesapeake say that here's been little to no discussion about an arena. It shows no level of commitment or partnership when the other cities aren't even in the discussion at the table

They asked the wrong politicians. Jason Miyares introduced the bill. Lynwood Lewis was involved as well. Now the Pilot needs to find out who was assigned to the authority and ask them what they think and if they have been involved with this project at all. 
https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+sum+SB787&201+sum+SB787