Economic Development

[AmIReal]

No, I was not involved in the discussion regarding the attorney market. 

I did not attack the Praxis study. In fact, I commended it. I didn't say I did not see their methodology, I said no one has as it is proprietary. I did refer to a study that has opened their data up for review.

I said I used the Zip data because it is current. Both the Praxis and Brookings reports are based on 2015 data.

I have read many of the articles you cited regarding tourism and I agree with you and them on the issue.

[AmIReal]

My apologies, I did weigh in on the attorney numbers. Again, it was a Brookings study that simply stated we outperformed expectations when weighted against national numbers. I stand behind that comment. 

[JFW657]

Quote

 

I am Reality said:

That is not an oligarchy.  It is income disparity.  Very different

As for anyone claiming the Orlando offers more opportunity than elsewhere, please read the articles I cited.

The local press, national media, the Disney picketers, economic experts, and the local residents on public assistance have pretty clearly weighed in on this topic.

Again, Universal jobs have a $13.34/hr AVERAGE wage, per the Sentinel. That includes the local middle-level managers, engineers, creative experts and executives.  

$13.34/hr does not pay the bills.  Period.

As for local real estate, the southwest side of town has a well-deserved reputation for foreign investment (particularly from Latin America and Europe).  Winter Park is more local-owned and is small relative to the rest of the area. 

 

Of course the AVERAGE wage includes the upper and mid level incomes as well as the lower levels, since that is the definition of the word. That doesn't mean that the mid and upper level wages are lower than they should be, it probably means that the number of available jobs in the lower strata is much higher than the number in the middle and upper strata, which is normal everywhere, not just an Orlando anomaly.

I have to disagree that $13.34/hr is not enough to pay the bills. I think a lot of people's financial woes nowadays has a good bit to do with their lack of ability to manage money wisely and a lack of ability (or will) to do without things they can't really afford. 

People nowadays, especially younger people, have been successfully brainwashed by commercial interests, into believing that every shiny new tech gadget and cool new thing that someone is selling, is something they not only must have, but are entitled to, and that in order for them to have everything their hearts desire, employers must pay them more and more and more.

Do without the latest, greatest most expensive cell phone and data plan. Get one that just makes phone calls and sends text messages. You don't need to be Googling while walking down the street anyway. Be satisfied with a more basic level of home internet service. If you're in an area where you can put up a TV antenna, cut the cable/satellite and watch a more limited selection of channels for free. I do it and it's not life ending. Plus, since 2003, I've saved over $10,000 in cable TV bills. Get Netflix or Hulu. Stop eating out at restaurants multiple times per week if you feel you're not making enough. Bring your lunch. Stop buying over priced clothing just because of the label. Don't charge expensive trips/vacations on your credit card then spend the rest of the year paying it off.

And most of all... don't start a family until you've established yourself in your career.

There are plenty of ways to economize in every aspect of life. A salary of $13.34/hr should be plenty for a single person to live on and with twice that coming in for a couple both working, it should be more than enough live on in reasonable comfort and even save some.

[spenser1058]

I'm still wondering the counterfactual. To remedy this horrible state of affairs, are we going to get The Donald to conduct a special episode of his TV show and tell 200,000 people, "You're Fired! Come back when you qualify for a STEM job! Meanwhile, I hope we're increasing WIC and SNAP to feed all the kids whose parents will be jobless. I do hope we're going to go ahead and ditch everyone else in the country who's not meeting the new standard.

[I am Reality]

19 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I'm still wondering the counterfactual. To remedy this horrible state of affairs, are we going to get The Donald to conduct a special episode of his TV show and tell 200,000 people, "You're Fired! Come back when you qualify for a STEM job! Meanwhile, I hope we're increasing WIC and SNAP to feed all the kids whose parents will be jobless. I do hope we're going to go ahead and ditch everyone else in the country who's not meeting the new standard.

Is earning a low wage somehow funny?  

I am glad you seem to be doing well.

Others clearly are not.

Joking about it is one-step up from making fun of the disabled.

 

[aent]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

Is earning a low wage somehow funny?  

I am glad you seem to be doing well.

Others clearly are not.

Joking about it is one-step up from making fun of the disabled.

 

The problem is what you are proposing is literally what he is making a joke of. I noticed you completely ignored my questions to you. I'll copy and paste it here to make it easy for you to reply:

Lets say 10% of the new jobs Universal just announced are higher wage jobs, do you think creating 300 new high wage jobs, if it is tied to 2,700 low wage jobs is a bad thing? Do you think those 2,700 people, no, the 3,000 people are better off then without Universal creating those jobs? Do you think you posting about 30 high wage jobs being created is really better news then 2,700 low wage jobs and 300 high wage jobs being created, just because its possible the former pushes the average wage slightly up, and the later pushes the average wage slightly down while also pushing the unemployment rate down?

 

Lets me also add: thousands of people per year literally move to Orlando to take Disney's near-minimum wage jobs. Obviously that is bad for your statistic you care deeply about, but do you think thats a good thing for Orlando or not? Do you  really think those who specifically are coming to Orlando for our amazing low-wage jobs are wrong and should be denied the ability to do so? And given that we've had a lot of people migrate to Orlando specifically for our low wage jobs, do you really think its realistic to move them to high wage jobs outside of their desired field?

You really need to get in touch with the reality of our tourism jobs. Don't rely on some articles where they're finding some individuals who are disappointed, but go to Disney, talk to some people, be friendly, find out if they like their job. Obviously they'd like to be paid more, but ya know, nearly everyone at every level would LIKE to be paid more. I have my "high wage" job but I promise you, I'd still like to be paid more (and do the same job). Plenty of people working at the theme parks also came from doing lots of other jobs that were much higher paying and prefer to be at the happiest place on earth all the time, which is thankfully right here in Orlando. I have friends who were cops, lawyers, and other higher paying professions, and wanted something low stress because they felt unhappy with their lives, and Disney/Universal provide that to them. You need to understand Orlando's low wage jobs are really not like any of the other low wage jobs in other locations, they're desirable, people want them, they migrate to the city of Orlando for them, etc... you clearly simply do not understand that, but until you do, you're really gong to be disappointed staring at that statistic forever that doesn't take into account the reality of what Orlando is..

[dcluley98]

$13.43 an hour ends up being about $24,330 Annually after taxes or about $2,027 a month.  Average rent for a 1 bedroom in Orlando is $1362.  If you can't work it out with a roommate and have to have a car to get to work, it is NOT going to be a very happy existence.  (Yes I know we have public transportation for that, but it isn't easy or convenient for a lot of things).

[JFW657]

10 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

$13.43 an hour ends up being about $24,330 Annually after taxes or about $2,027 a month.  Average rent for a 1 bedroom in Orlando is $1362.  If you can't work it out with a roommate and have to have a car to get to work, it is NOT going to be a very happy existence.  (Yes I know we have public transportation for that, but it isn't easy or convenient for a lot of things).

You can still get a studio apartment in Orlando for under a thousand.

And yes, it's true if you make car payments on top of that, you won't live the cool, hipster lifestyle, hitting the clubs with your buds two or three nights a week or eating at the newest hip, trendy restaurants but hey... see-est-la-vee.

Life is often times about making sacrifices.

The sacrifices made by my parents' generation make the ones I described pale miserably by comparison.

 

 

[I am Reality]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

You can still get a studio apartment in Orlando for under a thousand.

And yes, it's true if you make car payments on top of that, you won't live the cool, hipster lifestyle, hitting the clubs with your buds two or three nights a week or eating at the newest hip, trendy restaurants but hey... see-est-la-vee.

Life is often times about making sacrifices.

The sacrifices made by my parents' generation make the ones I described pale miserably by comparison.

 

 

Where the hell does one get the impression everyone is 20 years old, single, with no children in Orlando?  

Where does that even come from?

Just because you are???

Expand your worldview a little.

People have different lives and different responsibilities than YOU do. 

Welcome to the real world. 

 

1 hour ago, aent said:

The problem is what you are proposing is literally what he is making a joke of. I noticed you completely ignored my questions to you. I'll copy and paste it here to make it easy for you to reply:

Lets say 10% of the new jobs Universal just announced are higher wage jobs, do you think creating 300 new high wage jobs, if it is tied to 2,700 low wage jobs is a bad thing? Do you think those 2,700 people, no, the 3,000 people are better off then without Universal creating those jobs? Do you think you posting about 30 high wage jobs being created is really better news then 2,700 low wage jobs and 300 high wage jobs being created, just because its possible the former pushes the average wage slightly up, and the later pushes the average wage slightly down while also pushing the unemployment rate down?

 

Lets me also add: thousands of people per year literally move to Orlando to take Disney's near-minimum wage jobs. Obviously that is bad for your statistic you care deeply about, but do you think thats a good thing for Orlando or not? Do you  really think those who specifically are coming to Orlando for our amazing low-wage jobs are wrong and should be denied the ability to do so? And given that we've had a lot of people migrate to Orlando specifically for our low wage jobs, do you really think its realistic to move them to high wage jobs outside of their desired field?

You really need to get in touch with the reality of our tourism jobs. Don't rely on some articles where they're finding some individuals who are disappointed, but go to Disney, talk to some people, be friendly, find out if they like their job. Obviously they'd like to be paid more, but ya know, nearly everyone at every level would LIKE to be paid more. I have my "high wage" job but I promise you, I'd still like to be paid more (and do the same job). Plenty of people working at the theme parks also came from doing lots of other jobs that were much higher paying and prefer to be at the happiest place on earth all the time, which is thankfully right here in Orlando. I have friends who were cops, lawyers, and other higher paying professions, and wanted something low stress because they felt unhappy with their lives, and Disney/Universal provide that to them. You need to understand Orlando's low wage jobs are really not like any of the other low wage jobs in other locations, they're desirable, people want them, they migrate to the city of Orlando for them, etc... you clearly simply do not understand that, but until you do, you're really gong to be disappointed staring at that statistic forever that doesn't take into account the reality of what Orlando is..

Since you repeated your question 2 times....let me repeat my answer a 2nd time.   

"If Orlando adds jobs with a 90/10% ratio of low-wage jobs to high-wage jobs (or anything close to it), that is a serious, serious problem.  In fact, it is a total failure.

The city will continue to fall further behind other cities economically.  A lot of those jobs at Universal are part-time and pay low wages.  Where are the 3k high-wage jobs coming from to balance that out?  We already have low, low, low, ratio of high-wage earners to low-wave earners.  Do you honestly think the 3k new Universal jobs will improve on that ratio?  They'll only add to the permanent class of underemployed.  

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different outcome.

You can add a million Disney or Universal jobs and you will STILL have the same wage problem."

I think the "SERIOUS, SERIOUS PROBLEM" and "TOTAL FAILURE" comments adequately addressed your questions, no?

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by I am Reality

[JFW657]

19 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Where the hell does one get the impression everyone is 20 years old, single, with no children in Orlando?  

Where does that even come from?

Just because you are???

Expand your worldview a little.

People have different lives and different responsibilities than YOU do. 

Welcome to the real world. 

I wish I was 20 again!!!!

But I'm 60.  And yes, I am single with no children. But that is because I was a responsible enough person when I was young, to not run out, get married and start a family while I wasn't sure I could afford to support them. By the time I knew I was at the point financially that I could support a family if I wanted to, those opportunities were just no longer presenting themselves.

The point is, maybe if more people looked at life in terms of possible future consequences and ramifications and lived their lives within their means, there wouldn't be so many people in the situation we're discussing. 

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're rather young to be pontificating and handing out advice about "the real world" to someone my age. I accepted the realities of the real world and adjusted my lifestyle accordingly decades ago. Probably before you were even born.

Try not to get upset with the rest of us because you can't find a good paying job and don't expect companies to pay people $15/hr for flipping burgers or stocking shelves.

[I am Reality]

8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I wish I was 20 again!!!!

But I'm 60.  And yes, I am single with no children. But that is because I was a responsible enough person when I was young, to not run out, get married and start a family while I wasn't sure I could afford to support them. By the time I knew I was at the point financially that I could support a family if I wanted to, those opportunities were just no longer presenting themselves.

The point is, maybe if more people looked at life in terms of possible future consequences and ramifications and lived their lives within their means, there wouldn't be so many people in the situation we're discussing. 

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're rather young to be pontificating and handing out advice about "the real world" to someone my age. I accepted the realities of the real world and adjusted my lifestyle accordingly decades ago. Probably before you were even born.

Try not to get upset with the rest of us because you can't find a good paying job and don't expect companies to pay people $15/hr for flipping burgers or stocking shelves.

I got married after law school & started having kids after getting established. 

Even so...I still don't lecture other people how to life their lives.

And I would watch Fox if I wanted moral lecturing.

The fact remains that Orlando has a disportionate % of low-wage earners.

If you can fix that somehow by teaching financial-responsibility to the high % of the local underemployed, go for it. 

Let's just say I am skeptical.

 

 

 

[Boomer136]

A couple comments, I mean why not? Much of the world's young talent come here for their practicums in hospitality. It is a great finishing school and not even for those not in college. I'm guessing I am Reality has never worked at any of the parks. Having worked there and then being a public school teacher, I would rather have not left the theme parks. One has opportunities to move up, and if one is good one does.   Plus the benefits package was better. It's not just the hourly, gotta look at the full compensation package. Including training. I can't even quantify the cost of training I received not just for free but on the clock.  

[I am Reality]

7 minutes ago, Boomer136 said:

A couple comments, I mean why not? Much of the world's young talent come here for their practicums in hospitality. It is a great finishing school and not even for those not in college. I'm guessing I am Reality has never worked at any of the parks. Having worked there and then being a public school teacher, I would rather have not left the theme parks. One has opportunities to move up, and if one is good one does.   Plus the benefits package was better. It's not just the hourly, gotta look at the full compensation package. Including training. I can't even quantify the cost of training I received not just for free but on the clock.  

I worked at the Magic Kingdom in high school.

Had a ton of fun.

I eventually concluded it was a job, not a career.  

[JFW657]

33 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I got married after law school & started having kids after getting established. 

Even so...I still don't lecture other people how to life their lives.

And I would watch Fox if I wanted moral lecturing.

The fact remains that Orlando has a disportionate % of low-wage earners.

If you can fix that somehow by teaching financial-responsibility to the high % of the local underemployed, go for it. 

Let's just say I am skeptical.

Please tell me, who exactly did I "lecture"?

I merely stated an opinion about the habits of a very large group of people and related it to my own life. Hardly a lecture. 

One would think that a "law school" graduate would be able to make such a distinction.

Any "lecturing" you might feel I directed towards you, was in response to the lecturing you directed towards me first.

Again, one would think that a "law school" graduate would be able to recognize that.

Anyway, you've said your piece and I've said mine. Time to drop it and move on.

[I am Reality]

7 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Please tell me, who exactly did I "lecture"?

I merely stated an opinion about the habits of a very large group of people and related it to my own life. Hardly a lecture. 

One would think that a "law school" graduate would be able to make such a distinction.

Any "lecturing" you might feel I directed towards you, was in response to the lecturing you directed towards me first.

Again, one would think that a "law school" graduate would be able to recognize that.

Anyway, you've said your piece and I've said mine. Time to drop it and move on.

Re-reading my post, I am afraid I was unintentionally too harsh on you.  I actually hold you in high regard and look forward to your comments. 

[JFW657]

9 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Re-reading my post, I am afraid I was unintentionally too harsh on you.  I actually hold you in high regard and look forward to your comments. 

Thanks.

Same to you. 

You might get a bit adamant about your views, but you have every right to express them and though I might not 100% agree, I respect them.

[aent]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I worked at the Magic Kingdom in high school.

Had a ton of fun.

I eventually concluded it was a job, not a career.  

So would you take that fun away from people if it meant raising the average wage? And think back to when you worked there. How many people came from out of town to take these jobs? Do you think that would have some affect on the average wage issue in Orlando?

I mean, literally where else in the country do we have people flocking to to take low wage jobs? When I was at UCF, I knew countless people driving an hour to and from work because they wanted to work their for minimum wage, instead of taking the dozens of available fast food jobs that were 2 minutes down the street.

And your answer to my post did miss lots of individual questions and just went back to "the one metric I decided to focus on is bad so its terrible". Lets boil it down to one question: which do you think is better for Orlando? 3000 new jobs at Universal with 300 "high paying" jobs that will bring in even more tourists, or 30 new "high paying" jobs in a Lake Nona tech company, like what you mentioned earlier as a great thing?

[HankStrong]

11 hours ago, aent said:

Lets boil it down to one question: which do you think is better for Orlando? 3000 new jobs at Universal with 300 "high paying" jobs that will bring in even more tourists, or 30 new "high paying" jobs in a Lake Nona tech company, like what you mentioned earlier as a great thing?

OOOH OOOH!!  Mista Kotter!  Mista Kotter!!  OOOOH OOOH!  *raises hand furiously*

[steve_o]

Opinion:  If you want to understand what I Am Reality is saying,  remove emotion and spend some time on these boards (or better yet, city Business Journals) objectively learning about the types of progress currently happening in other "similar" sized cities.  I've always used Austin and Charlotte as good comparibles as I chose between them when relocating to Orlando 20 years ago.  

With that being said - its great to see so many bound together defending a city we all know and enjoy!

[spenser1058]

Hank's gonna love this cuz I'm gonna actually quote a Republican. In the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld, "you go to war with the army you have."

All sorts of oddities happen to make cities what they are: Charlotte's on the map today because of a quirk in branch banking laws and a retired marine named Hugh McColl who helped a tiny little bank named NCNB take advantage of it.

Austin has the benefit of being Texas' state capital and all the oil money associated with it (did you know UT has the second largest endowment of any US college after Harvard?) Because of UT, a student named Michael Dell started his own firm that helped Austin's tech community grow and prosper.

In both cases, those cities leveraged opportunities and ran with them.

Orlando did the same thing. Orlando was competing with the Lakelands and Ocalas of the world before Walt came to town. Are there negatives with tourism? Sure. But just as Detroit isn't telling GM, Ford and FCA to leave town, we're not just going to tear down Spaceship Earth and say, "never mind."

In fact, we wouldn't want to because we can use the cash cow that is tourism to leverage improvements at UCF and our airport to build up our tech industries. In fact, that's exactly what we've done.

Daytona once had a sizable GE plant that made things for NASA. Today, that plant is history and has One Daytona sitting on top of it. Talk about tourism wiping out tech. The sad part is Daytona's not even trying to diversify. We know how that's working out for them.The thing about our world-class theme parks is that they are a huge investment that can't be easily moved.

And, as the powers that be, have learned, adding to them every year makes them more successful (thank you, Harry Potter!)

Because of that, we're less likely to end up like Rust Belt cities who wake up one day when their big plant left down and everyone moves out.

In economics, everything is about trade offs. I think we made a good one.

Edited April 18, 2018 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

Just to clear something up...

Universal jobs have a $13.34/hr AVERAGE wage, per the Sentinel. That includes the local middle-level managers, engineers, creative experts and executives.

I can’t speak to the Universal pay scale, but this same number, $13.34, is typically used in articles about Disney. According to the Service Trades Council Union that number is only applicable to the nearly 38,000 employees in one of the six unions they represent. Those “employees represented hold diverse positions within Disney including bus drivers, hotel housekeeping, lifeguards, and custodians”. The $13.34 number does not apply to non-covered entities which includes all salaried employees, which is made up of managers and professionals.

[bqknight]

I’m honestly curious I Am Reality, what do you propose we as a city do then? 

 

[spenser1058]

Interesting article in the Sentinel about Martin - while mostly about a new billion dollar contract for the company (that's apparently not Orlando), what's important for us are the Orlando stats:

• 7000 employed locally

• 500 more to come by 2020.

Lockheed Martin lands $1 billion deal for hypersonic missile
http://bit.ly/2HbvM7D

[orlandouprise]

How FL lawmakers allowed that sector of Martin to go to Alabama is beyond me...

[spenser1058]

57 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

How FL lawmakers allowed that sector of Martin to go to Alabama is beyond me...

Huntsville is a huge rocket development center both for NASA and the military (so much so that there are huge rockets along I65 at the Huntsville cutoff.) This is a core competency of theirs going back to WWII. It's sort of like Oak Ridge TN in the middle of the mountains being a huge nuclear center.

At least in this case, it makes sense.

On another front, it seems Amazon is a tale of haves and have nots. Sound familiar?

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/19/technology/amazon-employee-salary/index.html

From CNN

Edited April 19, 2018 by spenser1058