CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[southslider]

^Perhaps, Congress just gave the MTC a "pass-the-buck" solution. Lacking funding to advance its design, BLE seems delayed enough now that near-term construction of the "bid-ready" Red Line should not risk the local match needed now much later for an even longer-term BLE.

Edited September 9, 2010 by southslider

[New Name]

It seems to me that everyone wants transit... overwhelmingly. MTC's constituents could be arguing about HAVING TO PAY FOR THESE LINES, but instead we're arguing about who gets theirs first.

If I knew more about how to organize a referendum (much like the anti-transit folks organized "stop the train" and got crushed), I would organize a "start the train" referendum to ask people whether they would be willing to increase the sales tax from 1/2 cent to a full cent. It couldn't hurt to put it to a vote, MTC may have an answer in front of them that they are not politically willing to suggest. But if "anti-group" can do it, why can't the "pro-group"?

[Sabaidee]

The MTC is too political IMO, our structure is horrible compared to other cities with transit ambitions. The members of the MTC will always advocate the lines that will run through their elected areas. Other cities mostly have MTAs, the A as in Authority, they are fully independent of elected leaders besides being appointed and most do not hold elected offices. If Charlotte has an independent oversight board over CATS, I think we wouldn't have resentment or issues over which line will be built next.

[cltbwimob]

^Perhaps, Congress just gave the MTC a "pass-the-buck" solution. Lacking funding to advance its design, BLE seems delayed enough now that near-term construction of the "bid-ready" Red Line should not risk the local match needed now much later for an even longer-term BLE.

I agree that with the continued delay of BLE, the Red Line's cost should not pose a great threat to the local match required for the light rail extension, although I am not "in the know". With 2022 looking like the earliest opening date for BLE, I think that the Red Line should be fast tracked. Additionally, I think it would be good if it were open in time for the DNC should Charlotte be chosen as the convention site. I think it would go a long way in providing "political" capital for transit in Charlotte, and may even be able to garner enough support to increase the transit tax to 1 cent. Although I almost never advocate raising taxes, I think that transit should be a top priority and needs to be put in place quickly prior to help mitigate air quality and traffic problems that already exist in the city as well providing alternate transportation modes should gas prices spike again. Furthermore, it encourages continued growth and helps to make the city more marketable for companies looking to add jobs in Charlotte.

If they choose to delay everything in favor of the BLE, it would mean a 15 year delay between the opening of the 1st and 2nd major transit projects. Holding the entire system hostage that long for that one line is a little ridiculous I think.

[tozmervo]

It's official, CATS is now going to allow advertising. Projections for revenue are $4.7 million over the first five years.

"Ads under the policy approved Wednesday night are limited to for-profit businesses. Exclusions include political advertising, tobacco and alcohol products and any messages tied to human reproduction or sexual themes."

[kermit]

An interesting article appeared in today's Tampa paper on Charlotte as a model for LRT transit development (Tampa votes in November on LRT funding). It constantly surprises me when other cities hold us up as a model of success while our expansion plans are so stagnant. I have to wonder what role good PR on Charlotte's part plays in some of these stories. For example:

Since light rail opened in Charlotte in late 2007, $288.2 million in development near light-rail stations has been completed and $522 million is under construction, despite a veritable halt in growth since the 2008 recession. The Charlotte Area Transit System projects private investment development stations will reach $1.45 billion by 2013, depending on the economic recovery.

Other than the Sierra and UNCC, I can't think of anything that is still under construction along the blue line, where am I overlooking $522 million worth of steel and concrete?

Its getting incredibly frustrating to watch the remainder of the world hold up Charlotte as a shining example of what LRT can do while we just continue to push back the creation of a real network due to cyclical revenue issues. So I have to ask why aren't we looking for alternative funding sources? If there really is so much construction why not use some TIF bonds? What about municipal service districts? What about just a straight up bonding out the current revenue stream? Why can't Charlotte, of all places, serve as an example of innovative transit finance as well?

EDIT: Forgot the link to the story: http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/26/na-charlotte-sees-train-as-asset/

Edited September 27, 2010 by kermit

[Joeman]

An interesting article appeared in today's Tampa paper on Charlotte as a model for LRT transit development (Tampa votes in November on LRT funding). It constantly surprises me when other cities hold us up as a model of success while our expansion plans are so stagnant. I have to wonder what role good PR on Charlotte's part plays in some of these stories. For example:

Other than the Sierra and UNCC, I can't think of anything that is still under construction along the blue line, where am I overlooking $522 million worth of steel and concrete?

Its getting incredibly frustrating to watch the remainder of the world hold up Charlotte as a shining example of what LRT can do while we just continue to push back the creation of a real network due to cyclical revenue issues. So I have to ask why aren't we looking for alternative funding sources? If there really is so much construction why not use some TIF bonds? What about municipal service districts? What about just a straight up bonding out the current revenue stream? Why can't Charlotte, of all places, serve as an example of innovative transit finance as well?

EDIT: Forgot the link to the story: http://www2.tbo.com/...train-as-asset/

Hey guys,

Long time lurker first time poster...

I am a native Tampan this issue has interested me a lot and I have been following Charlotte's progress since opening day. I split my time these days between Charlotte (gf) and SC. While no doubt it is disappointing that the BLE has been so slow in coming, you have to realize we have nothing like the South End with a reasonable transit connection into our core. Our closest approximation may be Channelside. We have a streetcar which is mostly for tourists connecting Channelside, the aquarium and Ybor (picture a bigger, Latin NoDa). The only problem is that people who do live in Ybor or Channelside (and there aren't a ton) can't commute to Downtown because the streetcar starts running at 9am. Moreover, up until now it stopped blocks short of downtown with a big ol' imposing overpass between the skyscrapers and the end of the line.

Since there is a chance Charlotte will be my future hometown I am curious as to the 2030 plan. If I am reading it right, will there only be ONE light rail line? Everything else is BRT, Commuter rail, or streetcars?

--Joey

[Spartan]

In our lifetime there will only be one LRT line (barring a major funding increase for CATS). The Southeast Corridor has been identified as either a BRT or LRT corridor. The MTC postponed the decision on that one until 2011. The next priority after finishing the LRT line is the streetcar system and the north corridor commuter rail.

That doesn't rule out other LRT lines though. It's just what is in the current plans. Usually, as transit lines get built, others will get added to the plan. I could see a much more extensive streetcar system, and some sort of fixed rail transit connecting Uptown to SouthPark over time. I can also see commuter rail in other directions, most notably to Gastonia and Rock Hill, maybe Concord/Kannapolis too... after Gateway Station is completed though.

[Joeman]

Why does CATS say that BRT in the SE corridor would draw more people than LRT?

--Joey

[southslider]

^Maybe it's due to BRT enabling feeder bus routes that branch on and off the guideway, expanding the reach of new service, and thereby attracting more riders. Still, even an LRT line could result in bus service changes that effectively add ridership in addition to the LRT stations.

[tozmervo]

Why does CATS say that BRT in the SE corridor would draw more people than LRT?

--Joey

Does CATS say that?

[Sabaidee]

I think he meant why BRT ridership is higher than LRT ridership if either or is placed on Independence. CATS did project that BRT will have a slightly better ridership, they have been for years,

[Joeman]

I think he meant why BRT ridership is higher than LRT ridership if either or is placed on Independence. CATS did project that BRT will have a slightly better ridership, they have been for years,

Yup... from Wikipedia

By 2006, a study released by the Charlotte Area Transit System indicated that the cost of light rail along the corridor would be roughly double that of a busway and have fewer riders.^[7] The estimates stated light rail on Independence would be 12.7 miles (20.4 km) in length at a cost of $585 million, with a projected ridership of 14,400 in 2030; and stated a busway would be 13.5 miles (21.7 km) in length at a cost of $315 to $325 million, with a projected ridership of 16,000 in 2030.^[7] By September 2006, the MTC voted to delay on determining whether a busway or light rail should be built along the corridor until 2011.^[8]

^{I don't understand why fewer people would use LRT than BRT unless it is the extra mile on the busway that makes the difference.}

--Joey

Edited September 30, 2010 by Joeman

[ExCal01]

Did anyone attend the streetcar meeting Tuesday night? If so, any news about if/when contruction on the starter line would begin? I thought the city approved funding of the ($12million?) gap between the $25 million federal grant and the estimated cost, although I may have just dreamt that. Any other interesting news regarding the results of the engineering study, options for funding, etc.?

[New Name]

"How is Besançon Building a Tramway at €16 million/kilometer?" - Transport Politic

This unwillingness to spending transit funds on street improvements in Besançon, though, does have its positive benefit: In some places, instead of reworking a street to offer both rail and automobile traffic, the city is simply banning cars. This will improve the circulation of the transit vehicles and improve the incentives to use public transportation in general. Much of the dedicated right-of-way for the rail line — usually expensive to develop because planners are afraid to take space away from drivers — simply is taken from the roads in Besançon. There is little concern expressed here about the loss of automobile capacity.

Imagine the possibilities - imagine the implications!

[go_vertical]

^ Nice. Quite gutsy but I like it. I think bold moves like that (in small doses) might be what is needed to show more people that they don't NEED their cars for everything. Hopefully this works as planned and more cities follow suit.

[Joeman]

Have there been any polls on the LYNX Blue line approval lately?

--Joey

[New Name]

Meeting tonight on Red Line commuter project

Mayor Tarte is expected to present findings stating that it will be difficult to reduce the $357 million cost of the Red Line project.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/13/1758728/meeting-tonight-on-red-line-commuter.html#ixzz12FGzX0so

I'm glad to hear that the towns are taking this initiative. It's been unreasonable how much pressure they put on MTC for equal standing, since it's clear that Federal money is not available for this project. It's not to say that the project is not important, but it shouldn't be dealt with in the same political ways. This seems like the first step toward a better alternative. Of course, the backlash now comes from the fact that the mayors and constituent in the North Towns have no vested interest in the MTC.

[southslider]

^Even if that's the cost, it's still just about a third of the total cost of BLE, and that's for both Phase I ($261M) and Phase II ($112M). However, the CATS 2030 System Plan anticipated the County sales tax covering only a quarter of the cost for each rapid transit project. So the question remains, even for the System's cheapest rail corridor, how does the funding gap get closed?

Now if the Towns could come up with a financing plan for roughly $200M, including unknown State participation, then they should very well pressure MTC to fund the remaining gap. Otherwise, this bickering between the Red and Blue lines just undermines regionalism.

Edited October 14, 2010 by southslider

[tozmervo]

I struggled a bit with which thread to put this in, but here you go.

Data is from http://www.thetransp...obile-commutes/

2009 Transit Mode Percentages for Charlotte (change from 2000 in parentheses)

Workers: 348699

Auto Transit: 87.8% (-3.7%)

Driving Alone: 76.6% (-1.6%)

Carpooling: 11.2% (-16.2%)

Non Auto Transit: 6% (24.3%*)

Transit: 3.5% (8.5%)

Biking: 0.2% (3.6%)

Walking: 2.4% (59.4%)

This data suggests that we're definitely headed in the right direction, but have quite a long way to go. I'm frankly a little shocked that our biking percentage is that low, but I guess my perspective is a little skewed.

* This was the highest number of all the cities included. Hooray!

Edited October 14, 2010 by tozmervo

[Spartan]

The mode share data collected by the ACS is based entirely on commuting trips, so that figure sounds about right. They also dont factor in recreational walking/biking. I would argue that for all trips, the mode share is much higher.

[New Name]

Hey, this rules:

Let's you compare TOD stats comparative to stations on thousands of public transit lines around the country. Here in Charlotte, you can select the station (example: Carson), and find out how many residents or jobs are within .5 miles, or .25 miles. So you can compare which stations are most TOD friendly with real numbers. You can also do this for future lines in Charlotte.

Registration is free. Do it, it's pretty good stuff.

[kermit]

Bad news for the Red line. Mooresville is stopping payments on their CATS express bus. Article says there were 43 riders per day.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/19/1773254/mooresville-to-end-83x-cats-bus.html

[Urbanity]

^^ When I first read the story I thought the same thing. After consideration I am wondering if this is necessarily a definite predictor of the commuter line funding.

[southslider]

^^Does Phase I of the Red Line include Mt. Mourne? If so, it does seem Mooresville will pass the buck to other Lake Norman Towns.